Name Magic: Unsalvageable

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Josh_Kablack
King
Posts: 5318
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Online. duh

Re: Name Magic: Unsalvageable

Post by Josh_Kablack »

Aycarus at [unixtime wrote:1143060217[/unixtime]]So, with clear and increasing disdain for D&D, what have people done about it?


Helped design and playtest its main competitor, and you...? :tongue:


I imagine that most people still find core D&D reasonably acceptable, or simply have no interest / desire to learn about the other options out there. With no shortage of alternative game systems available, why do you still stick with D&D?


The big plus of D&D has always been its market saturation. Within any group of gamers, you could be sure that most of them were reasonably familiar with the system. And for roughly half of the gamers I've ever played with, being able to find players without having to teach them a new system trumps any possible mechanics concerns.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
The_Hanged_Man
Knight-Baron
Posts: 636
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Name Magic: Unsalvageable

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

D&D has incredibly cool things going for it compared to other systems.

First, it's D&D. It just is. I will always buy the 4.x, 5.x, and so on. So will all of my geeky friends, and some of my non-geeky friends. They could quite print random words, put "D&D" on the cover, and I'd buy at least the PHB. Even if I knew it was the Random Word Edition. I'm serious, I'd buy it. I have the $50 put aside right now.

Second, it has some cool TM/Copyrighted stuff I miss in other systems. Beholders. Yay.

Third, I agree. If people think 3.5 has flaws . . . 3.5 is practically smooth sailing compared to some other systems. Shadowrun my group quite literally CANNOT PLAY - we spend the whole time figuring out how badly we can mess up the system, even Kirstin, and she HATES munchkining. The rest of the time we spend making jokes about being Mostly Dead at 1 health left and stuff like that.
power_word_wedgie
Master
Posts: 287
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Name Magic: Unsalvageable

Post by power_word_wedgie »

Josh_Kablack at [unixtime wrote:1143064814[/unixtime]] The big plus of D&D has always been its market saturation. Within any group of gamers, you could be sure that most of them were reasonably familiar with the system. And for roughly half of the gamers I've ever played with, being able to find players without having to teach them a new system trumps any possible mechanics concerns.


And, for me, this makes the discussion as relevant as asking the question, "If you put Santa Claus, The Tooth Fairy, the Loch Ness monster, and Iraqi Weapons of Mass Destruction in a footrace, who will win?" Ok, there may be the perfect game named "Bob's Awesome Game" out there with the perfect rules and perfect balance, but if you can't find anyone else to play it with, so what?

YMMV.
Aycarus
Journeyman
Posts: 110
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Name Magic: Unsalvageable

Post by Aycarus »

Josh_Kablack at [unixtime wrote:1143064814[/unixtime]]
Helped design and playtest its main competitor, and you...? :tongue:


Well, I am designing and playtesting a system (I'll post about it on here in a couple days probably). Not that it's specifically intended to be a revolt against Wizards, but it is something I've desired to do for a long time.

It's also a sad day when I have no idea what the main competitor to D&D is. GURPS?

Josh_Kablack at [unixtime wrote:1143064814[/unixtime]]
The big plus of D&D has always been its market saturation. Within any group of gamers, you could be sure that most of them were reasonably familiar with the system. And for roughly half of the gamers I've ever played with, being able to find players without having to teach them a new system trumps any possible mechanics concerns.


Indeed. And that's the reason Wizards really doesn't need to worry about the quality of their product line, as long as they can hold on to their trademark. We can complain all we want about the shortfalls of D&D - mechanical concerns or otherwise - but it doesn't bring us any closer to dealing with the problem of market saturation.

Of course, it's definitely easier to have one product control the marketplace than a menagerie of products. This makes it debatable whether their monopoly is actually a "problem" or not. I think what people are more upset with is the disdain shown to gamers by Wizards at the moment, even if it is an inevitable part of their enterprise.

If any of you want to do something about it, I think that it's worthwhile to hook up with a game design team or community and add some innovation to their ranks. There's certainly enough creativity here to go around, and certainly there's enough of it out there to put Wizard's on the spot if they had to compete with it. Is this a viable option?

It's worth noting that they received something like 100000 submissions to their world design contest; ever wonder what happened the top 500 of those submissions?

I'm generally of the opinion that outside of the core rules, most of the development should be left up to the community. Otherwise we end up in our current situation, where the product is held hostage by a regime driven by profits, rather than by a desire to actually improve it.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Name Magic: Unsalvageable

Post by Username17 »

THM wrote:Shadowrun my group quite literally CANNOT PLAY - we spend the whole time figuring out how badly we can mess up the system, even Kirstin, and she HATES munchkining. The rest of the time we spend making jokes about being Mostly Dead at 1 health left and stuff like that.


Just curious, is this still true in SR4 or are you talking about Shadowrun 3-? In part I suppose it's a suspension of disbelief issue, Shadowrun takes place in something vaguely approximating the "real world" (albeit one in the near future with Magic), and thus is more susceptible to the kinds of unlikely events that game systems generate. Characters falling off of cliffs and hitting the ground running in a fantasy setting isn't even noteworthy - people are supposed to do that - but the same event happening in a future/modern spy story is a genre breaking event.

D&D by its very nature can sustain many more logical inconsistencies in generated events than Shadowrun can. And of course, once the genre boundaries come down, many players are going to spend the rest of the evening fvcking off and there's shit all you can do about it. Since every game system, no matter how well designed, is going to have flaws in its resolution, some groups are simply not going to be able to handle any game system that is supposed to represent a universe more "realistic" than that of Middle Earth or Gotham City.

But if it's not that but something as simple as "variable TNs make figuring success chances so onerous that the GM inadvertantly sets difficulty thresholds for tasks that are inane constantly" - then you should try SR4 now that it's gone to static target numbers and difficulties are now easy to set on the fly.

And if it's something else entirely that I was unable to guess, I'd like to hear more about it. My response to the problems of D&D's design process have been much the same as Josh's, and I have a personal stake in making Shadowrun as good a game as it can be.

-Username17
User avatar
Crissa
King
Posts: 6720
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Santa Cruz

Re: Name Magic: Unsalvageable

Post by Crissa »

power_word_wedgie at [unixtime wrote:1142982213[/unixtime]]
Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1142914271[/unixtime]]So really, this is the end of D&D as we knew it. I don't know how many more years it'll decay like this - it took fifteen years of no redesigning for TSR to kick the bucket, and they at least pretended to make new game. Hasbro doesn't even do that.

I remember the same argument back in the mid-1980's. I must be getting old.

Which part?

The part where it actually took them fifteen years to die? Or wondering if anyone would take up the flag?

TSR did die, so I'm not sure the point of this comment; Wizards did get sold to Hasbro.

Sure, roleplaying games are back in bookstores... But for how long?

If you want to pretend to be a grognard or old guard - being ignorant of history will just confused me.

-Crissa
RandomCasualty
Prince
Posts: 3506
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Name Magic: Unsalvageable

Post by RandomCasualty »

Aycarus at [unixtime wrote:1143060217[/unixtime]]So, with clear and increasing disdain for D&D, what have people done about it? I imagine that most people still find core D&D reasonably acceptable, or simply have no interest / desire to learn about the other options out there. With no shortage of alternative game systems available, why do you still stick with D&D?

Personally, I've looked at several other game systems, but found that there were much more severe problems with the design of the system, or even a lack of creative options. D&D seems to monopolize the fantasy gaming genre at the moment, so I don't see people abandoning it quite yet...


Well yes, as far as fantasy systems go, they tend to be just as flawed as D&D or worse.

Shadowrun is a nice system really, but the problem with it is that it runs only a specific genre, and a lot of the time my group wants to play heroic fantasy as opposed to cyberpunk. And really what does heroic fantasy well? Most of the stuff I read isn't any more balanced than D&D, and it requires you to teach players lots of new crap.

So it becomes easier to simply house rule the heck out of D&D and effectively create your own 4th edition.

And honestly I think that a lot of D&D's problems tend to be the attempt at making rules that are too codified. Because the fact of the matter is that the genre itself isn't codified. It's ok to have tasks that resolve a certain way everytime in modern settings like Shadowrun, that's actually a good thing. In fantasy however, you have a lot of things running around that are simply plot devices. A lot of spells work that way, like planar binding. Stuff like that basically exists to serve the plot, and most of the time you cannot make balanced codified mechanics for that.

You want to balance the combat stuff, like fireballs and fingers of death, but a lot of the noncombat magic simply travels at the speed of plot. If the divinations are supposed to reveal some vital clue, then they do. If they're supposed to be cryptic, then they are. If they come out blank this time, then that's what happens. And there isn't always an explanation for it. Sometimes the ranger can track the monster and sometimes it disappears without a trace. That's how fantasy works.

I think D&D spent way too much time trying to balance PC versus DM, which is ultimately futile and not enough time balancing PC versus PC. Because that's all you can do as game designers, make certain that the PCs are more or less equal. Trying to prevent the DM from hosing you is a lost cause, because he can if he wants and you just have to accept that.
power_word_wedgie
Master
Posts: 287
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Name Magic: Unsalvageable

Post by power_word_wedgie »

Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1143145855[/unixtime]]
Which part?

The part where it actually took them fifteen years to die? Or wondering if anyone would take up the flag?


This is the whole point. If D&D was going to go by the wayside like many other games, it would have done so at this time. Did it? No, someone else took up the banner and the rest is history.

TSR did die, so I'm not sure the point of this comment; Wizards did get sold to Hasbro.


Yep. Companies get bought up like bigger fish eating smaller fish. It doesn't mean that the smaller company's product is weak. If anything, it argues the latter.

Sure, roleplaying games are back in bookstores... But for how long?

If you want to pretend to be a grognard or old guard - being ignorant of history will just confused me.

-Crissa


You know what - really this goes back further than the mid 1980's. I remember being a pre-teen munchkin in 1980 going in and buying a 1st edition D&D Monster Manual. The guys watching me make the purchase were in the gaming area just next door to the cash register were just shaking their heads. After all, I was buying a book that was promoting a version of the game that was going to drive Dungeons and Dragons to ruin. I was buying a book based off a rule system that was much more complicated and had numerous monster pre-generated stifling creativity. After all, they had been playing D&D with these white covered books and had done so quite successfully for quite a long time. There are still those that go around the boards and profess this to be the best version of D&D.

My point is that D&D has more lives than James Bond. In fact, I now get the same reaction to posts that say D&D is going to go into ruin as when I hear the BBEG in the Bond movie say, "Now Mr. Bond, it time for you to die." I'm now in my third decade of hearing people say D&D is going to go into ruin, with each generation saying that D&D was going into ruin with reasoning corresponding with the times. Heck, the obvious one was when people said that computers were getting powerful enough making the group RPG obsolete. It's still here. Enough said.
PhoneLobster
King
Posts: 6403
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Name Magic: Unsalvageable

Post by PhoneLobster »

If you think D&D is invulnerable I think you may be kidding yourself.

There have been other big names in the industry that have died, at least temporarily if not permanently.

Paranioa was big, and I gather the old Star Wars system had its following as well. Both of them DIED along with the failure of the publisher for entirely stupid reasons. Both are now back, but in little more than a trade mark fashion after being purchased by someone else after years of being dead.

They were dead so long that you talked about Paranoia and no one knew what it was. Sure now it seems to be a flagship product, despite not being d20, of one of the biggest d20 publishers, but without that new publisher and new rules set it would have remained as dead as a doornail for eternity.

Look at role master. You try and pull a quip about that infamous insane system with a modern gamer. They look at you and say "Role Who now?"

Big names can die. And the main way they die is not so much a lack of following, or a lack of good rules. Its through publishers going under, often through their own stupidity and marketing practices. The publisher crumbles, the books vanish, the system dies.

Hell D&D DID die. The link between 2nd and 3rd, and TSR and Wizards is cosmetic at best. What you are looking at is really a D&D brand name and a handful of settings with basically no actual other continous heritage as a role playing game.

1st edition D&D died. 2nd Edition D&D died. Dark Sun is dead, Planescape is dead, Spell Jammer is dead, Grey Hawk may as well be for all anyone outside of the RPGA cares, Dragon Lances supposed resurrection was a joke.

During the many sadder years of 2nd edition it seemed like almost everyone either fled the hobby, sought out new systems and settings or decided to screw the publishers in return and bugger off to homebrew everything?

Face it D&D can and has died. So it may do it again, possibly for longer, if not forever. After all there is a point where it gets so bad a reputation attached to its name that even that is impossible to ressurrect, or in other words it may pull a Role Master.







Phonelobster's Self Proclaimed Greatest Hits Collection : (no really, they are awesome)
User avatar
Josh_Kablack
King
Posts: 5318
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Online. duh

Chart Charting Charts!!!!

Post by Josh_Kablack »

Geoff Grabowski wrote:
3rd edition D&D is the best Rolemaster ever





"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
power_word_wedgie
Master
Posts: 287
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Chart Charting Charts!!!!

Post by power_word_wedgie »

Phone Lobster, I know what you're saying and agree that a company that has the D&D name can and has gone under. However, the name recognition alone will make it so that another company will take up the banner. So while the company dies, D&D doesn't.

Yeah, campaign world rise and fall, but ones like Forgotten Realms has been around forever and Greyhawk long than that. And Spelljammer and Dark Sun get some love every once in a while from Dungeon magazine and Dragon magazine. If anything, they're more dormant than dead.

As for the description of earlier editions dying, well there are always be revisions and they will come and go. Within the last five years, I know groups that play 1st edition, 2nd edition, and 3rd edition - they're still being played today. Of course, al of them were not in publicaton at the time. IMHO, just because a game goes from one edition to another doesn't mean that it died - if anything it highlights that it was prosperous enough to have another edition spring from it. If it died, it would be the last that you would have heard from it - like Boot Hill. (I would say Rolemaster as well, but I think someone bought their inventory and still is trying to sell it)

I've heard of D&D being no more only for someone to come along and publish books once again. And frankly I have no idea of the Paranoia game you're talking about - it may be more of a regional thing. The thing is that I've seen game stores come never to reopen again, yet D&D still is here. Why do I think that it is the case? In essence, Josh and T_H_M are right:

a) (the key reason) It is the one system that has high market saturation - I can always find a D&D gaming group in the area where I live and I can't say that about any other gaming system and,

b) there's enough people out there that are going to buy D&D just because it is D&D. I'm one.

Can the world change in the blink of the eye? Yeah it can. Remember when Lacoste shirts were popular? Unfortunately I'm old enough to remember. It's not the same today. However, there are organizations that seem to hang on just due to early inroads in their industry and name recognition. Microsoft is a perfect example. They developed the disk operation system for the IBM pc. In the late 1980's, Apple Macs came along and were going to drive IBM and thus Microsoft out of business. Didn't happen. IBM decided to take on making their own DOS and compete against Microsoft. It started, and then faded away. Now Linux is offering free products to do virtually anything that a Microsoft product does (and some say better because it has less bugs). Some change, but the rest of the industry is still Microsoft. D&D is the same way.

Yeah, yeah .. I got it ... D&D is dying and this time it is never to be resurrected again...

I'll believe it when I see it. I've just heard this song and dance before. In fact, it was suppose to happen in 1980.
power_word_wedgie
Master
Posts: 287
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Chart Charting Charts!!!!

Post by power_word_wedgie »

Josh_Kablack at [unixtime wrote:1143170349[/unixtime]]
Geoff Grabowski wrote:
3rd edition D&D is the best Rolemaster ever



Heh. I remember playing an elementalist only to get my kneecap shattered in the first encounter. Good times ...
PhoneLobster
King
Posts: 6403
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Chart Charting Charts!!!!

Post by PhoneLobster »

So D&D 2nd edition isn't dead because a handful of sad gamers who's already miniscule numbers continue to shrink every day still play it, occasionally.

Is it alive if it will never, ever, be a force in the market or the genre ever again?

Is it still alive because third edition tore the skin off its corpse and wore it like a big ole skin suit and danced around saying "do I look pretty?".

The answer my friend is no (well to the is 2 alive bit, a lot of people told 3 it was pretty). TSR, 2nd edition they are dead. D&D IS dead. Even 3.0 is pretty much dead. Just because there is another thing that is alive that is CALLED D&D and has exceedingly minimal ties to prior things called D&D doesn't mean it has been one continuous life span of the same gaming entity.

If I died tommorrow and someone who goes to the same gaming store and agrees with, or at least is aware of a few of my more obscure and irrelevant opinions created an account here with the name PhoneLobster2 then did what he or she felt like with it would you be saying PhoneLobster had not died?
Phonelobster's Self Proclaimed Greatest Hits Collection : (no really, they are awesome)
User3
Prince
Posts: 3974
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

sdthy

Post by User3 »



And honestly I think that a lot of D&D's problems tend to be the attempt at making rules that are too codified.


I disagree. The problem with D&D is that it's not codified enough. You want to build a castle, buy an expansion. You want to design a spell? Make it up. You want to add a new monster? Just eyeball it!

That's crap. And that's what the D&D designers are doing.

There are systems that codify everything. Champions does. Spycraft 2.0 does, and it's d20.

It's not that there's no wiggle room to do outrageous crap, it's that the game tells you how to do--provides you with the tools to do--outrageous crap.

It's not that D&D is too codified, but that D&D does a really half-assed job of codifying. Literally half-assed... as in, "We're going to give you detailed rules on how to build any one of our pre-printed magic items, but if you want to make your own spell, check with your DM."

D&D does all the easy work for you. The hard work is left for the DM.
RandomCasualty
Prince
Posts: 3506
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Chart Charting Charts!!!!

Post by RandomCasualty »

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1143186912[/unixtime]]
It's not that D&D is too codified, but that D&D does a really half-assed job of codifying. Literally half-assed... as in, "We're going to give you detailed rules on how to build any one of our pre-printed magic items, but if you want to make your own spell, check with your DM."

And really, the best way to do things is to say "check with your DM". Unless you want to make the game like a MMORPG where everything is effectively sterile and unimaginative, having any kinds of rigid rules are bad. You're better off just pointing to the DM for common sense or on the spot adjudication.

There are mechanical flaws in the game, like the hulking hurler, where the designers just screwed up their number crunching or got too cute (like basing damage off of object weight). But a lot of the problems come from things that happened to be too big for the designers and so they just wrote blanket uncontrolled mechanics. Polymorph for instance. The same is true about planar binding, gate, simulacrum and all sorts of other "story" spells. They're better off just not writing mechanics for some of these at all. Because probably anything they write is going to get abused.

The more mechanics you write, pretty much the more open you make them for abuse. Because we are talking about an open ended game, not a MMORPG, and we've got a lot of smart people out there, like Frank, who can find a hole in almost any rule that the designers write. So unless your designers are complete geniouses who are going to try to outthink everyone and write airtight rules, we might as well stop kidding ourselves that more rules are a good thing.

You want just enough rules to balance PC versus PC reasonably well in combat and that's it. The rest is more framework than real rules.

Because lets face it, fantasy is full of exceptions. Everything in a fantasy world that isn't combat related, from making magic items to casting divinations to wizards mass producing goods serves the story. That crap isn't really governed by concrete rules in fantasy stories, so why should we try to apply them in a fantasy game? Like it or not, the magic in the very medium that we are trying to recreate in a game is not codified.

We have no damn clue what Gandalf the Grey can even cast. We have no idea why oracles in stories always give cryptic predictions that usually aren't solved until the last minute or until it's too late. And that's the fantasy genre. We don't want rules for crafting the One Ring, because it seriously doesn't even matter. All doing that does is give people something to potentially abuse.

Fwib
Knight-Baron
Posts: 755
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Chart Charting Charts!!!!

Post by Fwib »

The King is dead, long live the King.

Proclaiming D&D dead because few people play some old edition any more is like declaring cars are dead because of the lack of Model-T fords on the roads.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Chart Charting Charts!!!!

Post by Username17 »

D&D was the roleplaying game for a long time. So much so that sometimes when people go to play Champions, Shadowrun, Vampire, or Toon, they say "we're going to play D&D." It's like how when you bust out the Kinkos Brand Celophane Tape you describe it as "Scotch Tape," or when you eat a Gelatin Desert you call it "Jell-O," or when you you use a facial tissue it's suddenly "Kleenex."

For some things, the brand name is used as a synonym for the entire idea, and D&D is one of those brands. Any role playing game would sell more copies if it was named "Dungeons and Dragons" because for many people the name "Dungeons and Dragons" means "Role Playing Game." The specific D&D brand has gone through stages of such strength that they could easily have taken the entire market just by reaching out and grasping it; just as it has gone through periods of such weakness that the company in charge of the brand actually collapsed.

Of course, as soon as the company dies, taking the game with it, of course some other company is going to snatch up that name. That name is worth a tremendous amount of free publicity and market share.

---

In the 70s (which includes the late 60s), D&D had the potential to take the entire market just by printing up a game system that was easy to use and relatively fair. They decided not to do that and were bombarded with immitators certain that they could do better - Rune Quest, Sword and Sorcery, Tunnels and Trolls, Warlock, etc. Some were good (Warlock), some weren't (Rune Quest), but they all offered things that D&D didn't - and D&D lost its fundamental place in the world.

In the 80s (which includes the late 70s), there was a call for games that were not based in Fantasy Genres, because people were kind of tired of that. D&D could easily have ridden that wave and made some decent Future/Comic/Pulp games or something, but they didn't. Instead Gygax railed about how if people played Traveler they were stealing from him (not a joke, he really said that). So Traveler, Champions, and Call of Ctulhu all came in and took their place on the shelf.

In the 90s (which includes the late 80s), there was a general dissatisfaction with the 5% chance of fumbling and a desire for more complicated probability distributions. D&D could have adapted, but instead they printed so many Darksun books that noone could keep up. Shadowrun and World of Darkness crept in and for a time White Wolf outsold TSR. TSR actually ceased to exist.

And in the early 2000s, Wizards of the Coast came up with a bright idea: they'd take the D&D brand and make a simple ruleset that used consistent terms and was easy to get into - just three Core Books. They'd playtest everything and give people a (relatively) balanced product. And they'd let other people write the minor crap for them. The results were astounding, people who hadn't played "D&D" in over a decade came back not only to the hobby, but to the specific D&D brand. They drove other game systems off the shelves, White Wolf nearly died (still might, actually - nWoD is nowhere near as popular as old WoD ever was). FASA died. They had a winning formula.

And now, Hasbro bought them and changed that formula. The new formula is the same as the TSR formula from the late 80s. A short turn-around time on each book, publishing a lot of unplaytested books, and hoping to sell a lot of books to however many people are willing to buy them.

But that's a self defeating strategy. We know that. We've seen what it does, not just a quarter or two in advance (where you make more money because you have more different products on the shelves), but a few years down the line (where people can't keep up and jump ship to some other gaming system where they can).

So is the D&D brand going to vanish? Of course not. But there was a time when if you published a new game you were going to do so under the "d20" moniker and thereby encourage more people to buy the Player's Handbook. It wasn't that long ago. The 3.5 designation just doesn't have that kind of market power. New game systems coming out in the next year are much more likely to use their own system.

-Username17
User avatar
erik
King
Posts: 5863
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Chart Charting Charts!!!!

Post by erik »

WotC also served to offer up a big 1-2 cock-slap to the face of their d20 peers by giving the double whammy of censoring naughty books by publishers other than themselves (they apparently wanted to corner that market) and then changing the core books which everyone else's product was based upon. I would have been severely pissed if I was a d20 author at the time of edition change.

I have to wonder how much the shift from playtested d20 to flying off the presses d20 is hurting game stores. Our FLGSs had to love it when 3e came out and core books were flying off of the shelves. I'm sure they loved 3.5 core books flying off the shelves too, but now they are having to clutter their shelf-space with loads of name magic caliber crap.

That's can't be good for business. If there are too many books for them to keep everything on the shelves, then it doesn't take a big mental leap for a customer to realize they can just order stuff online themselves instead of having the game store order it for them.

At least that's how the current state of affairs looks to me.
power_word_wedgie
Master
Posts: 287
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Chart Charting Charts!!!!

Post by power_word_wedgie »

To answer a few thing here:

"Selection Making It so that FLGS not having all of the books": Yes, there are situations where that occurs. Fortunately, I have a FLGS that is pretty well stocked. However, whenever I want a book that he doesn't have, I just ask him to get it from his distributors and a few days later it's there. Really, it's like if I ordered it on-line. But let's cut to the chase: there's a significant price decrease if I buy it on-line versus buying it from my FLGS. If that is what motivated me, I would have ditched my FLGS a long time ago. However, I still buy books from him because (a) he still has a good selection of D&D merchandise even if he doesn't have "Races of Stone" or whatever right at this particular time and (b) I want my purchases to help support a FLGS in my community. For customers motivated to leave, they've had enough reason for quite a while from the concept of cost.

Recent Releases "Tainting" the d20 Moniker: Personally, I really don't think 3.5 had much to do with it. Really, I think that 3rd party publishers are learning that they really need to have a unique product in order to compete because their d20 stuff got shelled. Why buy another d20 fantasy when you can have D&D? Why buy another d20 modern setting when you can buy, well, d20 Modern? But P_W_W, why was it a struggle for the 3rd party companies? Because, as Josh noted, market saturation by D&D. If a system had twice the better rules and sold at half the price, would I buy it? No, and it's not because of any loyalty to D&D. It's because it is much easier to find a D&D group versus any other gaming group, at least in northern Indiana. I buy games and gaming material so that I can use them in gaming groups, not to marvel in the tight-knit nature of the rules. And every time I go to the gaming store, I see more material for the 3.5 revision of the rules, not 3.0, and they are from a variety of authors.

Early Forms of D&D Dead: I pretty much agree with what Fwib said. Yes, 3rd edition now has skills, feats, and new combat rules, but it still has the same attribution generation, attribute description, core races, all the core classes (and a new one), weapon damage pretty much the same, uses armor class mechanics, and spell descriptions. Yes, the new stuff give it a new feel and there is some new stuff to learn to become familiar, but as a former 1st and 2nd edition player, enough of the skeleton is still there for me to pick it up relatively easily. Heck, you still see people arguing about the D&D sacred cows that still exist in 3rd edition. You can still see the heritage of OD&D, 1st edition, and 2nd edition in the current game.
User avatar
Crissa
King
Posts: 6720
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Santa Cruz

Re: Chart Charting Charts!!!!

Post by Crissa »

Actually, third party d20 products started selling better than the brand-name d20 products... And then 3.5 came out.

D&D sales have been dying ever since. The d20 segment is still strong - third party products still sell, just not as well, the segment is shrinking with the flagship.

Could someone have just not bought third-party stuff? Sure. Did they? They bought d20 stuff in droves!

Market saturation, yes. But that didn't kill d20.

Look, 'Ask the DM' is no better than cops and robbers, and RPGs were invented to solve that particular dilemma, not encourage it.

-Crissa
RandomCasualty
Prince
Posts: 3506
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Chart Charting Charts!!!!

Post by RandomCasualty »

Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1143278642[/unixtime]]
Look, 'Ask the DM' is no better than cops and robbers, and RPGs were invented to solve that particular dilemma, not encourage it.


Well that's true that RPGs were created to provide some rules framework. But basically this is more so that the players themselves are playing on even ground. So you don't get one PC with tons of super powers and the rest of them sucking. That's really what RPGs were meant to solve IMO. To put all the PCs on even footing. We don't even kid ourselves that the DM is god and can kill anyone at any time. And we constantly use "Ask the DM" to handle the little facets of adventure design. And if your DM is a dick, then your adventure sucks. But that's just a natural consequence of RPGs.

There are some genres where I think it's good to have concrete rules for everything.

Fantasy I think is an exception to that though, simply because I just don't see many fantasy stories without a bunch of plot device abilities. They're full of one of a kind powers and spells and all that pretty much exist just to further the plot, then go away. The story calls for a One Ring so we put one in there. We don't really worry much about the mechanics for forging it, or stats for Sauron. We just kinda accept that it's there and that's it.

And we probably don't want rules for forging it, because otherwise you end up with indestructible artifacts when someone abuses the artifact creation rules. You're going to have all sorts of weird abilities and odd destruction methods and a codified system just cannot cover all of them.

And most magical effects are the same way. We've got some that I think can and should be codified, like throwing fireballs or turning invisible, but stuff like divinations, wishes, planar binding, simulacrums and so on effectively exist to further the story, and those things pretty much need to flow solely with the story and not against it. It's like the jedi's ability to sense the dark side in Star Wars. Pretty much it works when the story wants it to work and doesn't work when it would be destructive to the story (like sensing Palpatine).

A lot of things in fantasy "just happen" to make good stories, and I think a fantasy RPG needs to have that fundamental flavor to it as well.
power_word_wedgie
Master
Posts: 287
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Chart Charting Charts!!!!

Post by power_word_wedgie »

Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1143278642[/unixtime]]Actually, third party d20 products started selling better than the brand-name d20 products... And then 3.5 came out.

D&D sales have been dying ever since. The d20 segment is still strong - third party products still sell, just not as well, the segment is shrinking with the flagship.

Could someone have just not bought third-party stuff? Sure. Did they? They bought d20 stuff in droves!

Market saturation, yes. But that didn't kill d20.


Do you have any sales figures to back this one up with, either with d20 segment or edition 3.5 declining in sales? Or even with what qualifies for "in droves." I only note that since systems like Traveller d20, BESM d20, and Stargate d20 never ever took off in my area. The only game that I know that took off here was D20 Modern.

If anything, what would have hurt supplementary sales is that really there isn't a huge difference between D&D 3.0 and 3.5. Thus, it isn't like it is impossible to house rule into existance 3.5 compatibility - in fact it is pretty simple. It's not like it is impossible to house rule the 3.5 differences into my 3.0 splat books, for example.
User3
Prince
Posts: 3974
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Re: Chart Charting Charts!!!!

Post by User3 »

The more mechanics you write, pretty much the more open you make them for abuse. Because we are talking about an open ended game, not a MMORPG, and we've got a lot of smart people out there, like Frank, who can find a hole in almost any rule that the designers write. So unless your designers are complete geniouses who are going to try to outthink everyone and write airtight rules, we might as well stop kidding ourselves that more rules are a good thing.


There is no bigger abuse than you wanting to do something and the DM saying no because it's not in the rules.

That's still abuse, just from the other side of the screen.
User avatar
Crissa
King
Posts: 6720
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Santa Cruz

Re: Chart Charting Charts!!!!

Post by Crissa »

power_word_wedgie at [unixtime wrote:1143294750[/unixtime]]I only note that since systems like Traveller d20, BESM d20, and Stargate d20 never ever took off in my area. The only game that I know that took off here was D20 Modern.

I always hear this, but regional differences are irrelevent. Book sales are totals, not averages. And supplements, be it third party or first, always sell a tenth or less the copies of the core.

If anything, what would have hurt supplementary sales is that really there isn't a huge difference between D&D 3.0 and 3.5. Thus, it isn't like it is impossible to house rule into existance 3.5 compatibility - in fact it is pretty simple. It's not like it is impossible to house rule the 3.5 differences into my 3.0 splat books, for example.


No, 3.5 didn't sell as many books as 3.0. Now that you can't get it... It may not be reissued. Frank thinks they're working on 4.0, but this is Hasbro, not some company that cares or relies upon the core product. Heck, there's authors out there who had a medicore first book sales, then their second book sold out like hotcakes - but since it's sold out, and the number that was printed was lower than the first book, they won't republish. That's what the real world of publishing is like.

Yes, the lack of differences did sink it slightly, but there were enough differences for anyone who was playing with a new group of 3.5 only, to need the 3.5 books.

-Crissa
User3
Prince
Posts: 3974
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Name magic

Post by User3 »

Hey, let me say this place is great. I loved D&D games when I was a little younger, and these these ideas and topics very interesting. Hat's off to Mr. Frank for all his essays.

Anyway, I haven't read this new book on Name Magic at all, but I think it is a neat idea for an option for a D & D game. When you start the game, you have every player pick two names for for each character. Then you change the rules around a bit and incorporate name magic into the whole setting. I wouldn't stop with just cleric and magic user spells. You could take the ranger, who already has the favored-enemy theme, and give him special bonuses in combat against favored enemies if he learns their names. Monsters who've had the vampire template for over a hundred years forget their true name, but if you discover what it is you control them. Then make up some true-name feats that are cool. It could fit into D&D pretty well and might be interesting and fun.
Post Reply