Replacement for Vancian Casting

[Draco_Argentum]

I've been kicking this around in my head since the XPH.

In all the stuff below N is the caster's HD, X is any other number that I don't know yet.

Save DC is always 10 + 1/2 N + ability mod

Each spell would have a base effect. It would also have a bunch of options like augmentations. You'd have N points that you could spend on options and each one would cost X points.

A full caster would get to pick one spell each level from their class list. Each spell would have a minimum N.

For an example:

Flames
Evocation [Fire]
Minimum HD: 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 30ft.
Effect: Ray
Duration: Instant
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

You project a ray of fire. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray to deal damage to a target. If struck the target takes Nd6 fire damage.

Augmentations
1 point: remove V component
1 point: remove S component
2 points: increase the range to 100ft
4 points: increase the range to 400ft
6 points: change from effect ray to area 20ft. burst, enemies get a ref save for half damage
6 points: change from effect ray to area 5ft line out to maximum range, enemies get a ref save for half damage
4 points: anyone damaged by the spell is dazed for one round
And so on. There'd obviously need to be some better ones since this caps at level 12. Also the points values are stuff I made up on the fly so don't get too caught up on them.

The idea is for all the spells that you cast in a fight to be sorted into stuff like that. Anything not meant for use in a fight I haven't figured out yet. I was thinking of making them into spellcraft checks and letting anyone who can make the DC go wild.

Metamagic would mostly go away. You could have feats give out specialised augmentations that would apply to all (or maybe just most) of the caster's spells.

Since everything is based on HD multiclassed or monsterous casters would cast real spells, just with a limited selection.

So, does anyone think this could work?

[Username17]

Well, as written you hit 5th level and you get infinity juggle - the attack where you do any damage at all and your opponent doesn't act next turn. So that's pretty unfair.

Mostly though, if you're going to make people spend points to activate their biggest spell effects, you should just cut the crap and eliminate anything but the best spell effects. You can make it a form of warlocking where characters get ass tonnes of spells or like dragon's breath where characters shoot their load every few rounds, or like raging where characters get to pull their whacky stunt just a few times a day.

But in any case, there's no particular number of basic fire blasts that you could apply that would be worth giving up some lesser number of infinity juggle spells. The Tekken Juggle is literally priceless.

And that's ever been the fundamental truth of D&D magic. More awesome things aren't worth 2 castings of less awesome things. They are worth infinitely more than less awesome things because you only get 4 actions in any combat. Keepig track of "spell points" is really complicated for a Pencil and Paper game, and it doesn't balance anything.

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That being said, I think you might have something for a Warlock redo. Simply give people a list of level appropriate effects for their eldritch blasts to be doing and let people go nuts. I don't think the infinity juggle blast is balanced at fifth - or any - level, but I could imagine a blast that made people make a save to avoid being dazed for a round as part of a Warlock's repetoire.

Custom creating spell effects is basically never balanced outside of the very narrow provisions of direct damage. But for Warlocks - who are supposed to throw around unlimited custom crafted direct damage attacks - it seems fine.

-Username17

[Draco_Argentum]

Okay, barring infinijuggle since thats just dumb.

I think it was unclear, each spell gets N points, every single casting. So as written you could lob infiniguggle rays once per round every round of the day at fourth level. (Since it costs four points, I never said the basic mode cost any points at all.)

In essence the system has you throw a big fire spell every round. No crap about uses per day. You get to reconfigure the range and area on the fly and mix in secondary effects too.

You're right about non-damaging stuff in a way. Charm effects are stumping me for example. Those would rock really hard as an at will ability out of a fight.

However debuffs and SoDs could be done like this. Seriously, Wail of the banshee is just finger of death with an AoE.

[PhoneLobster]

For the charm spells thing, if you must...

Use per time period or similar limitations can be tied to the target rather than the caster.

So the caster can throw around charm every round all day everyday, who cares, he just can't throw it at the same target again and again until he succeeds.

[User3]

If you give players a set number of points a round, and spells with durations take the same number of points each round, you can ignore the 'charming the world' crap. A player can charm as many npcs as his points allow, and then not much else.

Makes things less 'fire and forget,' which means it works better with a game where the computer keeps track. Still, I can't imagine it being that difficult to remember how many people you have charmed. If you aren't able to do that, charming them in the first place won't do you much good.

I'd also rather keep the point numbers as low as possible in a pen & paper game, for less book keeping. So have 'remove components' & 100' range cost 1, 400' range and Daze cost 2, and area fx cost 3. And give fewer points, or make levels harder to get.

Ultimately you can adapt this to an entire game system, wherein everything your character does has a per-round point cost. Which helps to accurately reflect the value of buffs.

[Draco_Argentum]

Its not just charming the world though. Theres also the forcing your opponent to "take 1" on his save aspect.

I think 20 is a reasonable number of points, not so large that is a big deal to add up in your head. I went with 20 because every level gives you something.

Another thought I had was for SoDs that don't actually cause death to be stacking debuffs that remove you from the fight once you fail your save enough times. The ones that actually kill can be ported to direct damage.

That would help warriors since spells would stop ignoring the warrior's contribution. It'd also make debuffing more viable. Right now you can usually choose between SoD or SoInconvenianced.

[User3]

1151745060[/unixtime]]Its not just charming the world though. Theres also the forcing your opponent to "take 1" on his save aspect.

If your opponent is willing to just sit they as you try to mess with his head. The barkeep seems just as likely to ask you to leave after you start disturbing patrons with your hand waving, mumbo-jumbo, and creepy stare.

[Username17]

The point here is that you can tell a charmed opponent to voluntarily allow you to cast a spell on them - like flesh to stone, for example.

Onc you've allowed char in at any level, you've acceped SoD as a way of life no matter what else you do.

-Username17

[Draco_Argentum]

Well if someone charms you then spends the next three rounds turning you to stone that dosen't seem like a big problem.

Out of combat its no worse than it is now. Not really much better though.

[RandomCasualty]

1151790576[/unixtime]]The point here is that you can tell a charmed opponent to voluntarily allow you to cast a spell on them - like flesh to stone, for example.

Onc you've allowed charm in at any level, you've acceped SoD as a way of life no matter what else you do.

Well it gives you a free cast, but that's it.

An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell.

The moment you cast a spell that threatens it (I'd say any spell that doesn't have the (harmless) descriptor falls under this category), you break the spell.

[Draco_Argentum]

Heh, hadn't thought of that. So out of combat it wouldn't be an auto kill combined with the change to SoDs.

Charm would need a limit to the number you can control. That'd stop hordes of slaves.

Now onto "take one". What if passing a save let you know who tried to charm you?

[Crissa]

Linking Charm (and similar effects) to flat stats like Leadership or a Skill Rank of Concentration would probably solve the hordes problem.

Actually, creating a new classification of spell between (C) and (D) that takes up these continuous effect slots would probably work, too.

Failing to Charm or Sleep or other spells which have a continuous effect probably should have a 'cooldown' - some amount of time greater than a round for which you failed to affect the target.

-Crissa

[RandomCasualty]

1151881209[/unixtime]]
Failing to Charm or Sleep or other spells which have a continuous effect probably should have a 'cooldown' - some amount of time greater than a round for which you failed to affect the target.

I like the idea of cooldowns for effects. It tends to make combat more interesting by preventing people from just being one trick ponies who cast the same crap over and over.