d20 Modern Dialogue

[PhoneLobster]

OK I'm going to make the case for you being wrong and upgrades being basically out of bounds for heroic robots and/or severly limited.

The next heading ("NONHEROIC ROBOTS") details the basic NPC stuff, and is followed by a fairly standard 'type' description, under the heading "GENERAL ROBOT TRAITS."

Thus ends the section on NPC robots.

That section explicitly talks about how UNLIKE heroic robots unheroic robots do not get normal skills and feats and may take various upgrades. Then its followed by several sections explaining upgrades they can take, sounds like the NPC section hasn't ended to me.

Then you have the ressurection bit, and then the meat of the chapter: The robot building section. This applies to both NPCs and PCs,

The thing is we just had a section explicitly saying that non heroic robots get this stuff, in part to replace something they DON'T get that heroic robots get.

but not to fear: PC robots have already been restricted to playing Medium or Small-sized bioreplicas and bioroids. Because of this, you can completely ignore the "frame" section.

That is far from explicit, PC robots are restricted to races that have similar names to no heroic robot frame options its a different kettle of fish, you ignore the frame section because unless it says otherwise upgrades are something explicitly provided to non heroic robots.

After that, everything is open season, and you can add whatever you can pay for to your new robot character.

Well for a start locamotion options probably aren't even in your scenario, locamotion is a racial trait for heroic robots.

In case you need more to convince you that this is the truth, I'll add some circumstancial evidence.
1) PC bioroids can explicitly use integrated armor.

That easily reads as an explicit exception. If a heroic biodroid counts the same as a non heroic biodroid why explicitly permit them to wear an armour item that in its description allows biodroids to wear it?

2) Before the skill and the feat software sections, there is a paragraph specifying how such equipment works for players. If they weren't allowed to purchase upgrades, this would not be an issue.

If you had access to the actual book you might see that that is presented only in an optional rule side panel, its non standard to allow heroic characters those options.

Its also worth noting with that optional rule using skill software eliminates all your normal skill points.

And using feat software REALLY sucks because it eliminates all your normal feats and ONLY gives back as many as you get just for being alive, so you just sold all your bonus and class feats under the sun for... what?

3) Under the heading "ABILITY UPGRADES," there is the following sentance: "Heroic and nonheroic robots can receive structural and programming upgrades that increase their ability scores.

Reads rather clearly as an exception allowing heroic robots to access that category of upgrades.

I'm telling you man, heroic robots ARE Kryton from red dwarf, you get a novelty condom shaped head and no charisma, thats it.

[User3]

I guess I was being overly optimistic...
I'm going to ignore a few of your points because we just obviously aren't seeing things the same way. For example, it seems obvious to me that the NPC section ends before ressurection begins, and it seems obvious to you that it is otherwise.

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but not to fear: PC robots have already been restricted to playing Medium or Small-sized bioreplicas and bioroids. Because of this, you can completely ignore the "frame" section.

That is far from explicit, PC robots are restricted to races that have similar names to no heroic robot frame options its a different kettle of fish, you ignore the frame section because unless it says otherwise upgrades are something explicitly provided to non heroic robots.

Alright, first of all I'm having a bit of trouble understanding your language here, so I apologize if I'm misinterpreting you.

So, the section on heroes starts with the following bit:

This section presents two types of anthropomorphic robots that can be played as heroes: the biodroid (more commonly referred to as an “android”) and the bioreplica (also known as a “synthetic”).

When I read it, I insert a "the" between "presents" and "two." The omission, I believe, is either a mistake or to allow DMs and players to make up their own stuff. That's my opinion, and I won't claim that it's RAW. I do believe that it's the only interpretation that makes any sense.

So, all PC robots start with small or medium bioroid or bioreplica frames.

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After that, everything is open season, and you can add whatever you can pay for to your new robot character.

Well for a start locamotion options probably aren't even in your scenario, locamotion is a racial trait for heroic robots.

Yes, PC robots can be altered to use different types of locomotion. They all start with their base walking type because (1) they're humanoid and (2) having an immobile PC would be pretty lame. Because their base type of locomotion is a racial trait, they don't have to pay for it.

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In case you need more to convince you that this is the truth, I'll add some circumstancial evidence.
1) PC bioroids can explicitly use integrated armor.

That easily reads as an explicit exception. If a heroic biodroid counts the same as a non heroic biodroid why explicitly permit them to wear an armour item that in its description allows biodroids to wear it?

Because WotC loves redundancy, and because (I believe) they're trying to make the distinction between bioroids (which can use it) and bioreplicas (which can't) clear.

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2) Before the skill and the feat software sections, there is a paragraph specifying how such equipment works for players. If they weren't allowed to purchase upgrades, this would not be an issue.

If you had access to the actual book you might see that that is presented only in an optional rule side panel, its non standard to allow heroic characters those options.

Its also worth noting with that optional rule using skill software eliminates all your normal skill points.

And using feat software REALLY sucks because it eliminates all your normal feats and ONLY gives back as many as you get just for being alive, so you just sold all your bonus and class feats under the sun for... what?

Even if an option you have sucks, you still have it. Saying something like 'Half-orcs suck, and therefore players don't get to choose a race' is just nonsensical.

I don't have the hardcopy book, so I don't know what the layout is there. I generally take the SRD to be a 'primary source,' because WotC is free to edit out any mistakes. If it is an "optional rule" perhaps the optional rule is 'PCs with featware suck'?

1158055888[/unixtime]]I'm telling you man, heroic robots ARE Kryton from red dwarf, you get a novelty condom shaped head and no charisma, thats it.

They may be Krytons from Red Dwarf, but (as you said) they can have astronomically high charismas.

And, even if the rest of the upgrades are unavailable, you've already demonstated that my original example of

You can still be upgraded as normal if you're a robot, which makes all of the crappy staring stuff irrelevant. You've got a friend with the Heir backgound, and so your Str & Dex are about 30. Your mental ability scores are around 25. You've got some sort of carbon-fiber armor plating. You've got every single skill at something like 12 ranks.

still holds true. All of my suggested upgrades are ones which you yourself said were legal for PCs to take.

[PhoneLobster]

For example, it seems obvious to me that the NPC section ends before ressurection begins

Again, SRD, Book, Robot Ressurection is a side bar.

So, all PC robots start with small or medium bioroid or bioreplica frames.

The heroic robot section only mentions frames in the context of robot ressurection, which is no help to any bugar since it never explicitly outlines what a similar frame is for a heroic robot. I can only assume its another heroic robot of the same type.

As for upgrading locamotion, well heroic robots don't get locamotion, they get a movement entry the same as a creature they are modelled after, basically the same with manipulators.

Anyway.

The book explicitly says non heroic robots get upgrades.

The book explicitly gives heroic robots access to a total of ONE category of these upgrades.

The book explicitly gives an OPTIONAL rule that heroic robots can use to poorly access another category of those upgrades that is explicitly otherwise NOT allowed to heroic robots.

That makes for a pretty good case that heroic robots don't get the other upgrades.

I know its stupid, but this is WOTC and some of their worst stuff at that. Do you doubt that they may have MEANT for heroic robots to not get anything other than penalties. I mean these guys are the warforged of d20 modern!

Just flick through to the genetic engineering or mecha section if you need proof that the writers hate anyone trying to use this book.