Monsters and magic.

[Artless]

I started thinking while I was re-reading dominate person, and I got this idea in my head that non-humanoid creatures should really have their own magic.

Seeing as the humanoids have developed magic to specifically subjugate other humanoids, wouldn't it be safe to assume that creatures normally immune to certain effects have crafted their magicks to specifically harm creatures like themselves? Or has magic been brought into existence with only the humanoids in mind in its uses? Do abberation spellcasters really have dominate person instead of something like dominate abberation?

[MrWaeseL]

Do abberation spellcasters really have dominate person instead of something like dominate abberation?

Yes, because adventurers are more often Humanoids than Abberations.

[angelfromanotherpin]

In the Arcana Evolved magic set, many similar spells have a restriction to the caster's Type.

I don't really hold with arbitrary type-based immunities to effects. If you have an effect that lets you monkey with a creature, saves and specific immunities should really be all you have to look at.

[Brobdingnagian]

Actually, I'm personally a fan of the dominate (creature type) philosophy. I had this discussion with JE a while back.

Dominate Monster is so cool because it hits everything. Dominate Person is uncool because it only works on humanoids... but that's why it's a lower level. There should be these following spells as well, at the same spell level as Dominate Person.

Dominate Wyrm (Dragons)
Dominate Xenotypes (Abberations)
Dominate Unliving (Undead)
Dominate Fairy (Fey)
Dominate Eldritch Brute (Magical Beasts)
Dominate Monstrosity (Monstrous Humanoid)
Dominate Colossi (Giants)

And we also submit the following spell:

Control Mindless
Sor/Wiz 7, Bard 7
Transmutation
Gain full control of a mindless creature; simple commands only. Fortitude to negate.

JE will explain the details.

[Crissa]

The only one on there that bothers me is collossi and monstrosity... Mostly because the giants and monsterous humanoid stypes are just dumb beyond dumbness. Most aren't particularly monsterous or giant at all.

-Crissa

[the_taken]

Just a reminder: Command Undead and Control Undead
And to lesser craptastic degree: Control Plants

[User3]

Dominate Person is a lower level because humanoids in general are much less powerful, not because its more restrictive.

While some DMs are willing to stat out humanoid NPCs with characters levels to be the villains, much more people simply find a monster CRed appropriately for the party and move on with their lives.

[Brobdingnagian]

But I don't like being lame with my villains.

Anyway, it's a good suggestion for those DMs who actually give thought and creativity to the encounters they bring in.

Besides, NPCs with class levels are generally better (if only slightly) than appropriately CRed monsters. At least, that's what I've found, but that may be due to my nasty habit of optimising my NPC villains.

[Judging__Eagle]

The only one on there that bothers me is collossi and monstrosity... Mostly because the giants and monsterous humanoid stypes are just dumb beyond dumbness. Most aren't particularly monsterous or giant at all.

-Crissa

The monster manual is already a big old propaganda book, who cares if a few more lies are said.

Just a reminder: Command Undead and Control Undead
And to lesser craptastic degree: Control Plants

Note, I wanted this to be a Transmutation spell; Duration of concentration up to 1 minute per level.

You're not really 'commanding' them, so much as playing "Remote Control Zombie" or "RC Golems!", by physically stopping their bodies from moving in any manner but the way that you want them to.

Dumb, but that's the idea that I got when I thought it up.

Dominate Person is a lower level because humanoids in general are much less powerful, not because its more restrictive.

While some DMs are willing to stat out humanoid NPCs with characters levels to be the villains, much more people simply find a monster CRed appropriately for the party and move on with their lives.

Lazy DMs ftw!

[RandomCasualty]

1179796825[/unixtime]]The only one on there that bothers me is collossi and monstrosity... Mostly because the giants and monsterous humanoid stypes are just dumb beyond dumbness. Most aren't particularly monsterous or giant at all.

Yeah, I've always believed those should just be subtypes. Well actually I don't think monstrous humanoid should exist at all. Giant should be a subtype.

[JonSetanta]

"Hold Person" and "Dominate Person" should be "Hold Type-Similar-To-Self"

[Crissa]

Personally, I always thought of the Monsterous and Magical really as subtypes... Of creatures affected additionally by feral effects and those who are immune to them.

...And on that point, and spell that expects a stat to be in a certain range should require that stat to be in the range, not that the average of a type will be in that range (like constitution, intelligence, etc). Obviously this needs to be written out because using Type doesn't work because the writers don't understand that when they write spells to require 'Animal' the animal might not have a 2 Intelligence or spells that affect Objects require the target to have no Constitution.

-Crissa

[shirak]

I think you're reading way too much into this. D&S is a game about killing people and taking their stuff. Dominate and other effects were basically an afterthought. Which shows a little in cases like this and a lot in other cases (cough Diplomacy cough).

[Judging__Eagle]

It would help if sometimes, y'know, the game wasn't about rampant violence.

[Brobdingnagian]

Sorry, that was me. JE forgot to log out of my computer.

[Cielingcat]

1180571861[/unixtime]]It would help if sometimes, y'know, the game wasn't about rampant violence.

I'm not following you.

[Artless]

Whether or not the game is really "Assault and Battery" rather than "Dungeons and Dragons" is irrelevant. You cannot deny that spells such as Dominate, Charm, Hold, etc. play an integral role in any campaign that deals with magic. They are too useful and rich, mechanically and literarily.

The fantasy stories that support D&D worlds are fraught with dominated and charmed creatures, and it's a gross over-simplification to say it's only about the shootin' and lootin'. The purpose of this discussion was to gauge the amount of work that needed to be done to correct what seemed, to me, to be a design error that left any player, who didn't want to play a humanoid, with little option other than waiting levels and levels until they get that sweet, sweet candy of the -Monster spells.

[Brobdingnagian]

I still support my previous suggestion of making one spell for each type.