Things that are NOT FUN

[rapanui]

This is a simple thread. All you have to do is list a bunch of things that you think make RPGs in general Not Fun. It can be anything, as long as it is a wide-spread phenomenon.

Here are a few things I can think of:

-Losing control of your character.

-Combats that are too short or are over before you can take an action. (As a corollary, I could also say: getting assassinated, getting critically hit, springing a "no save" trap)

-Combats that take too long.

-Rolling too many dice.

-Lack of combat options. (Not being able to try a crazy stunt you think would oh so cool)

-Getting railroaded.

-A bad GM storyline.

-Dying or being permanently disabled. (Let's face it... having your character die sucks, even if there's a No Hassle Rez waiting right around the corner).

Add your own and feel free to dispute any of mine.

[Neeek]

1181869890[/unixtime]]
-Combats that are too short or are over before you can take an action. (As a corollary, I could also say: getting assassinated, getting critically hit, springing a "no save" trap)

I'd put the corollary into it's own categories:

-Combats where you can't fight back.

Though, I'd have to say being crit'ed doesn't really bother me too much. Except when it involves a vorpal weapon. Which is another one:

-Instant/automatic kills.

[PhoneLobster]

Being told your 2nd level barbarian with a sum total of 2 feats which he decided to invest in tripping is boring and lacks role play value because using tripping weapons all the time is less fun and thematic than hitting things with an axe repeatedly.

Playing a wizard in a 2nd ed game who was forced to enter the game with lower than average party level and a few random, sucky, innapropriate, magic items and fight his way up with scorching rays, bare fisted punching proficiency and the skin of his teeth... Then not much later watch another player create a new cleric/wizard who had class levels BOTH equal to maximum character level in the party just GET a bunch of crazy good magic items that he asked for. Especially when his characters background and religion leans strongly toward basically killing and bossing about other wizards and he gets powerful magic immunity items...

That second one just after your prior character was a Paladin that you had basically abandoned on its third or fourth death because the SAME PLAYER had replaced their original character with a Paladin as well who also was suspiciously antagonistic and somehow due to "fluff reasons" directly opposed to your paladin AND who unlike your paladin got to be a level higher and was allowed to enter the game with a fvcking free paladin mount when you got none.
...

How do I have so many specific complaints about being a player when I've got to play as a player so little? Are that many GMs out there that sucky? I've totally got to start charging for my services...

[rapanui]

PL's post can be summed up as follows, i think:

-Lack of non-ambiguous rules to introduce and develop replacement characters.

-GM's with clear player biases (the dreaded "GMs girlfriend" applies here).

I think that's the main point, aye?


EDIT: Also, this reminds me... this can be from either perspective. As a player or GM. Here's a couple of the latter:

- Preparing an adventure and then losing all that hard work due to not wanting to railroad is Not Fun. (Although coming up with random stuff on the fly can be great, specially when the players enjoy it despite it being off-the-cuff)

- Having a hard time adjudicating how many critters X's it takes to reduce Y players of Z level to 75% party strength.

[Crissa]

Long combats is too vague... Long combats are good.

Slugfests where you've won, but merely need to make n successful rolls in a row which are like flipping coins... That's not fun.

-Crissa

[rapanui]

In d20 I preferred combats that last from 5-10 rounds, preferably closer to 5 than 10 (any shorter than 5 was too short, IMHO).

How long (real time) combat actually takes to resolve depends heavily on the number of creatures on the board. When Only two people are fighting face to face, a 5 round combat is going to seem like a quick and bloody affair. When 30 orcs are bearing down on an 8 character party, 5 rounds can seem like an eternity.

So, perhaps I should clarify. Resolving combat shouldn't take longer than 30 minutes of real time unless it is a particularly important battle.

[Maj]

[*]Excessive Paperwork. - If my character sheet can't fit on one page (for a non-spellcaster), or two pages for a spellcaster, it's too long and there's too much crap to keep track of. I like clean, consitent rules with few exceptions to them.

[*]Excessive Math. - I don't want to have to do calculus to figure out the equation for power points. I don't want to have to do algebra to calculate hit points. Some people do math for fun - that's cool - but I am not one of them.

[*]Kill It|Are There Any Elves (If So, Are They Hot?). - I can't stand it when there's one person who just decides that he's bored and starts whining, "Can we kill something?!" Or worse, wants to have sex with it.

[*]Themelessness. - It's pretty rare to encounter a character who doesn't have some sort of overlaying concept that guides the build. When I see them, though, the characters are almost always the magicarp of the game.

[*]Knee-jerk Adjudications. - It's annoying to bring up something about the game and have the DM just smack it down because he doesn't want to take a minute to actually think about it... Especially when he likes the idea once game is over.

[*]Inconsistent Plot. - I understand that there's no editor looking of the shoulder of the storyteller, and to a certain extent, I just find my own ways of remedying inconsistencies in my head. But when you can't do that and it affects your ability to suspend disbelief, it sucks.

[*]Lengthy Spell Lists|Lack of Preparation. - Jot down what your spells do. Don't look them up during game.

[*]Wasting My Time. - Game sucks when everything that your character does has absolutely no impact on the world you're in. If what my character does in game doesn't matter to the game, there's no point in playing.

[*]The Min/Max|Rollplayer Accusation. - I play in a group that gets together maybe four times a year. So far, everytime we've played, I haven't rolled above a 10. Last game, though, my luck with the dice changed, and all of a sudden, I became a horrid min/maxer because my character went from mediocre to really effective.

[*]The Roleplayer Accusation. - This one's a fine line for me to walk because I do try to create characters with character, but seriously, I'm not "roleplaying" just because I made a diplomacy check.

[rapanui]

Great list. Paperwork and spell list preparation IS quite annoying. I also second the math stuff. Addition, subtraction and NORMAL multiplication (not weirdo d20 multiplication) are fine with me, as is looking up stuff on a table (as long as the table is clear and laid out well... not the 3.5 PHB c and C skills list table). Anything beyond that is unnecessary.

World impact/story consistency is a very common problem. The latter usually comes up when the GM decides to ad lib (at which point I'm liable to be more forgiving).

I myself have been guilty of "kill it!", (thankfully not the sexual variant) but mostly due to boredom caused by...


- Split Party. Sometimes it's cool, sometimes it's necessary for plot, but when you're spending 45 minutes looking at other people do stuff while you twiddle your fingers, it gets annoying VERY fast.

Also, I've never seen someone accused of being a roleplayer... that seems more like a compliment to me, given that it is a roleplaying game. They're just jealous Maj.

[User3]

Character neutering can be just as bad as losing control of your character. If all my character can do is cast spells, and I've made it clear that casting spells is the mechanical part of the game that I enjoy most, then an adventure where I arbitrarily can't cast spells is Not Fun.

I think that ties in to forced character redefinition/replacement, but neutering is much more common imx.

[Neeek]

1181881892[/unixtime]]
- Split Party. Sometimes it's cool, sometimes it's necessary for plot, but when you're spending 45 minutes looking at other people do stuff while you twiddle your fingers, it gets annoying VERY fast.

Not usually a problem for me, but I can't recall the last gaming session I played in that I didn't fall asleep during at some point for at least 15 minutes.

That includes times when I DMed.

[shirak]

"Realism" in games like D&D or Exalted

Social Interaction Rules. Do I need to explain?

[ckafrica]

Split Party. Sometimes it's cool, sometimes it's necessary for plot, but when you're spending 45 minutes looking at other people do stuff while you twiddle your fingers, it gets annoying VERY fast.

When I was playing mage we would be split off sometimes for an hour or more. We always made sure a deck of magic or nuclear total war was around so the other players had something to do and just swap out when it was our turn.

[RandomCasualty]

1181880404[/unixtime]]
How long (real time) combat actually takes to resolve depends heavily on the number of creatures on the board. When Only two people are fighting face to face, a 5 round combat is going to seem like a quick and bloody affair. When 30 orcs are bearing down on an 8 character party, 5 rounds can seem like an eternity.

So, perhaps I should clarify. Resolving combat shouldn't take longer than 30 minutes of real time unless it is a particularly important battle.

Yeah, it's one reaosn I don't particularly like a lot of creatures. I'd personally like some way to reduce the number of rolls required for large groups.

[Brobdingnagian]

Hey, I love the idea of Social Interaction Rules.

They just need to be seriously re-worked is all.

[shau]

Losing your class features - It is not fun to suddenly be an npc class. At no point should a character have levels in an Ex-whatever class.

[tzor]

I would like to point out that I have seen rare examples where things that were generally not fun were actually fun, but it takes the right circumstance, DM and players to pull it off. (So don't try them at home!)

Players bringing personal real world problems or prejudices to the gaming table: the worst example involved two players who were both playing paladins. He was from one of those “macho” cultures and she was somewhat free spirited. Anyway while going through a quest they had an argument and it became so heated that she actually left the came and never came back. Fortunately he quit the game as well a few weeks later.

[Zherog]

1181881056[/unixtime]][*]Kill It|Are There Any Elves (If So, Are They Hot?). - I can't stand it when there's one person who just decides that he's bored and starts whining, "Can we kill something?!" Or worse, wants to have sex with it.

Or worse yet, wants to kill it then bang it...

[User3]

Grapple-fights. Grapple-fights are NOT FUN (tm). As much as I like rolling to do anything and then the monster rolling to do anything....

"I attempt to pin, pinned, I end my turn"
"I attempt to break pin, I attempt to deal damage, I deal 10 damage"
"I attempt to take control of the grapple, I attempt to pin"

this fight sucks. 3 full attacks, 10 damage, it's like having a weight-lifting contest. d6 Cloakers (or other grappling monster.... like bears) is a crap-tastic fight.

[Crissa]

I rather liked grapple... What, you prefer slugfests?

-Crissa

I grapple the bear. Joe the Rogue kills it while its denied dex bonus. End of story.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Things I dislike as a player:

-Adventures whose solutions are too obscure. There is nothing I hate more than hving to sit for three hours at an event because the DM decided to throww in a puzzle whose solutions had no clues whatsoever in gameplay, and I have to figure out the positions of three levels that have 2 positions each.

-Idle time. I like the game to keep moving, I get bored if there's too much going on that doesn't involve me.

Things I hate as a DM:

-Level loss. I have all negative levels get removed automatically in 24 hours, I don't enforce level loss when ressurections occur. I don't like level loss, because that limits me what I can throw at my players, and I don't like that.

[Maj]

Adventures whose solutions are too obscure. There is nothing I hate more than hving to sit for three hours at an event because the DM decided to throww in a puzzle whose solutions had no clues whatsoever in gameplay, and I have to figure out the positions of three levels that have 2 positions each.

That reminds me...

[*]Inadequate Descriptions. - It is so frustrating when you're asking the DM for imagery and description about a locale (or puzzle, etc), and he gives the details of a situation... But then, when you take that information and have your character act upon it, it turns out that there was relevant information that you weren't told about that would have majorly changed things. "Gee, thanx... Maybe if you had told me there was a lever on the wall right next to me, I would have tried pulling it instead of smashing down the door."

[Neeek]

1181957696[/unixtime]]
-Adventures whose solutions are too obscure. There is nothing I hate more than hving to sit for three hours at an event because the DM decided to throww in a puzzle whose solutions had no clues whatsoever in gameplay, and I have to figure out the positions of three levels that have 2 positions each.

Hmm. I find my biggest problem along these lines is finding a balance between the puzzles being too hard and too easy. I find I have a hard time gauging what other people will find obvious, and what they will find baffling.

-Level loss. I have all negative levels get removed automatically in 24 hours, I don't enforce level loss when ressurections occur. I don't like level loss, because that limits me what I can throw at my players, and I don't like that.

Permanent level loss is painful on so many different levels. Not only does it set you back a ton, but it makes you more likely to die in the future. Basically, the penalty for dying is dying more often? Sweet. That's a great move there.

[Iaimeki]

1181966613[/unixtime]]
Permanent level loss is painful on so many different levels. Not only does it set you back a ton, but it makes you more likely to die in the future. Basically, the penalty for dying is dying more often? Sweet. That's a great move there.

In the case of level-draining undead, their original purpose was so Gary Gygax could reduce the levels of his PCs so they wouldn't get beyond the range of where the system broke horribly.

[erik]

Fvck level loss.

I have played in campaigns where the rule was that when you died, you came back with a new character at level 1, irrespective of what level the rest of the party was at.

My final death in one of these campaigns, out of I think 5, was as a level 7 rogue eaten by a purple worm during a surprise round+1st round of combat. The wizard, monk and arcane archer (each around level 13 +/- 1) couldn't save me fast enough, though the multiple purple worms weren't even a threat to them in the cavern. They couldn't save the level 1 cleric with us either.

So from this I hate any rule that forces vast level/power disparities. Not fun.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

I was just venting because we spent an hour in grapple-fights last session when we got jumped from 6 claokers (more than the number of party members). It resolved when the party wizard (me) DDoored out of the grapple, occupied the now-free enemy and freed the rogue (who proceded to hose all grappled enemies). Just seemed stupid to waste so much time to have nothing accomplished (other than the spell damage, I think we took 12 hp and 2 con as a 5-person party).

I like "you come back 1 level lower than the avage level of the party". In our campaign, we have a reckless player that enjoys building new characters (1 page of build explanation, 3 pges of backstory) that is also a good roleplayer (probably the best, he's just a bit spastic). If level-loss for character death wasn't an issue he would be dramatically more reckless.

However, all too true about the Gygaxian level drain. I remember that lower-level characters were always completely safe from it (levels 1-6), and levels 10-cap were always flooded with them.