What we want our characters to do.

[ckafrica]

So reading Franks book of gear exerpt I was thinking; if leveling in the D&D fashion is silly and most heroes are really only 1-10 what I really want is to have characters stay more or less static in stats but to pick up new tricks along the way that give them new cool ways of killing stuff without having the situation where low level monsters aren't even a consideration anymore.

If I going to have characters who pick up to abilities that make them more versatile and cool without making them uber powerful I need a list of those cool things that characters can learn to do.

So what do you guys think? What cool things do you want your character to do?

[Username17]

Abilities like Improved Trip and Improved Disarm often work well for that sort of thing. It's why some people think that E6 is a good idea. Really, most heroes are supposed to win by pulling "tricky shit" right at the end - which in D&D land means giving people Wizard style status infliction.

• Blinding enemies (with sand or whatever).
  
• Moving enemies (pushing them down bottomless pits is good).
  
• Nauseating foes (like with a kick to the pelvis).
  
• Distracting Enemies (Boo!)
  
• Tripping Foes (...the harder they fall)
  
• Trapping opponents (under rocks or just in a bag).

When it comes down to it, almost every single hero in every story ever is a Rogue. All of them. So really what people actually want is to have the Rogue class, call themselves whatever, and then get additional abilities over time that are kind of like "Skill Tricks" except free and not fucking retarded.

Below is the top end of my unfinished Rogue revision.

---

Rogue
"I can be anything greater than you."

The Rogue is a character who has a diverse collection of non-magical talents, the ability to seize opportunity in a combat situation, and a knack for coming out alive in deadly situations. In short, the Rogue is just about any protagonist in any story you've ever read. Almost every major character in fantasy media is a rogue. Movies, plays, books, comics, television shows, folklore and puppet shows depict the adventures of rogues to an amazingly unanimous degree. Conan is a rogue. Siegfried is a rogue. Madmartigan is a rogue. Aladdin is a rogue. D'Artagnan is a rogue. Hubert Hawkins is a rogue and the Maid Jean is as well. Goldilocks and Little Red Ridinghood are rogues. Characters who are strong and brawny heroes with big chins and bigger swords are in almost all cases rogues. Characters who wear tight pants and swing a saucy blade and a jaunty smile are in almost all cases rogues. Sultry seductresses are rogues. Hardbitten detectives are rogues.

A rogue's class features allow them to be good at "stuff". They get lots of skills and the ability to use them well. They fare well in combat because sneak attack occurs any time you cooperate with compatriots, any time there's a lucky break to take advantage of, and any time you have snuck up on your enemy. Rogues can get Use Magic Device which really is the skill that you use to activate plot devices, Rogues can get the stealth skills they need to bring the Ring to Mount Doom. Rogues are the "protagonist" class. When you are designing a character you don't have to justify being a Rogue, you have to justify not being a Rogue.

All of a Rogue's abilities are extraordinary, which means that they have a relatively non-magical feel for most of the game. Higher level rogues perform feats that are nonmagical in name only. But then, a 14th level character isn't really playing the same game anymore so don't get discouraged if you genuinely want to play a game where people run around doing nonmagical "feeling" stuff.

Alignment: The Dread Pirate Westley is a rogue. Count Tyrone Rugen is also a rogue. Rogues appear in all the literature as heroes and villains, detectives and knaves. Absolutely any alignment can be justified within the context of Roguing. It's not even hard.

Races: If you can imagine telling a story about a race, you can imagine them being a Rogue.

-Username17

[JonSetanta]

Explosions!

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Fafrd and the Grey Mouser were some of the best characters I've read.

I want my character to do awesome shit:
Swing from chandeliers
Hold an ogre at bay while the party escapes down the river path
Burn my way through a forest
Fly (Magic Carpets are acceptable)
Hide in the shadows and pounce on the guard when he turns his back
Be invisible and sneak into the castle to get the secret battle plans
Assassinate the enemy leader
Be rushed by 20 enemies and have them all die after <AoOs/sneak attack/disabling spell>
Escape with the Orb of Power to enslave the nearest hobgoblin tribe
Make peaceful contact with neighboring regions in order to crush the rising planar shift in the north
Travel to exotic locations
Die gloriously
Live forever (ageless, not immortal)
Ride a dragon
Throw fire from my fingers
Do minor magical shit ALL DAY (summon mundane creatures to eat, tie/untie ropes, levitate the nearest object to me, start a fire without tinder, control the weather so it never rains on me but blesses the peasants crops, ect.)
Animate a skeleton/golem to be a personal slave with a sense of humor
- bonus points if it has the unwilling soul of the last BBEG
Ursurp the king
Research my own spell
Make my own item (Sword of the Sun, Blade of Doom, Rod of Destruction, Ring of Might, Helm of Dwarf-fooling)
Create/Eliminate a disease
Defeat->Banish->Bind a power denizen of the Lower Planes (Balor or Babau is preferred) such that it uses it's teleporting to slay my enemies in their sleep
Meet a god
Betray a god to it's own people
Escape with the loot while being pursued, only to lose them on the magically enchanted horse I stole from the last people!

[Koumei]

1189160072[/unixtime]]
Animate a skeleton/golem to be a personal slave with a sense of humor
- bonus points if it has the unwilling soul of the last BBEG

YES

The list in general sums up a lot of the things I want to be able to do. In some instances, I'd add "wail on my ax while standing atop two dragons, drawing the lightning towards my heavy metal and launching it out at my foes." or "exterminate the peasantry", but in general, those kinds of things.

So level-per-session Tome stuff starting at 5th level is pretty much precisely what I like.

I like the description given to the rogue, too. Class ability: able to do it (where it is, well, anything).

[JonSetanta]

Everything Dark Schneider did, with or without RP sexcapades.

[Captain_Bleach]

1189205535[/unixtime]]Everything Dark Schneider did, with or without RP sexcapades.

Yes!!! The Bastard!! Manga is awesome!

[JonSetanta]

Yeah but 3.5 Sorc is fucked. And of course, DS just has to be Sorc, what with his massive CHA score it would be a waste to be a Wizard (tho that's what he is called, sure doesn't act like one)
DS is like.. some wacky house-rule Sorc from some remotely-D&Dish campaign setting...

He's walking proof that spellcasters rule fantasy settings.
Ironically, he seems to use almost entirely Evocations, which also means that he ain't usin SRD spells either...

I'd call him a model for Warmage/Warlock/Sorcerer in D&D; anything that falls short of his capability (including the self-ressurection) is simply fucking WEAK!

Also, I want my spellcasters to be able to make explosions explode.
And then the explode the exploded explosions.

[rapanui]

Frank, I have disagree somewhat with your evaluation of heroes and rogues.

Just because you pull off some tricky shit at the climax of a story arc doesn't mean that your skill repertoire is necessarily tricky. You often use Greek mythology as an example, so look at the heroes there. Often, all they do is kick ass and chew bubble gum. I will grant that MOST climactic battles have 'tricks' that the protagonist and antagonist use on each other, because it creates a dramatic moment.

But as M. Night Shyamalan has shown, too many twists and tricks gets old. Sometimes, I just want Gandalf to fuck up the Balrog with magic and might, no tricks. Sometimes, you just want Drizzt to put his scimitar through the orc, like has trained to do all his life. Sometimes, Archangel Michael really does just have to step on Satan's face. Sometimes, Superman just wins, period (although, in the second movie he does do the whole rogue thing, awesomely, I might add).

What do I want characters to do?

1. Survive. Seriously. These are the protagonists of a group story. They don't die until the players agree, or fuck up REALLY badly.

2. Have diverse abilities which can be used like golf clubs (you've mentioned this as a negative in the past, I don't think it has to be). These don't add depth to the game, they just create vivid moments where the character displays his range.

3. Has relevant tactical abilities (the Rogue-ish stuff, althouhg it doesn't necessarily have to be tricky). Altering the battlefield, hampering opponents, etc.

Obviously 2 and 3 are not mutually exclusive, and any game system that allows a player to trade between them is broken in principle.

4. Can do stuff outside of combat. Every character should have social skills that can be relevant to the plot, economic skills that can be relevant to background and purchases and crafting, and some kind of flavorful performance skill. These should not be interchangeable for combat skills. At all.

[JonSetanta]

Well not to get psychological but I'm a pretty tricky guy IRL.
I plan, hesitate, gather info, debate, and then reluctantly test options before moving. Very anti-gambling personality.

When I play any RPG, I prefer straightforward blasting and heroics. Indeed none of this tricky shit (usually)

First person shooters, however, are another matter. One usually won't see me until it's too late. <_<

[Bigode]

2. Have diverse abilities which can be used like golf clubs (you've mentioned this as a negative in the past, I don't think it has to be). These don't add depth to the game, they just create vivid moments where the character displays his range.

Do you mean plot-writing abilities (such as "connections in higher places")? Please do not: any GM can just give those as part of the story and done with it. Sorry if I misunderstand, of course.

Frank: while I sort of agree with your assessment of most fictional characters being best approximated with rogue levels (as far as WotC material was concerned, because I'd fit a lot of fiction under the RoW fighter, should it be available, and it is, in the case), the writeup you gave them sort of creates the impression of "Why have any class but rogue and wizard? Not that in official material that wasn't exactly the case ... Besides, could you mention some of the ideas you had for the gadgeteer, paladin, and rogue? Also, the rogue killed the swashbuckler as a class, right? Finally, what about the long-ago mentioned "champion of the people" - you meant the paladin, or something else?

[Count Arioch the 28th]

What I want my characters to do is simple: I want my characters to be cooler than I am.

In real live, I'm an overweight, goofy-looking guy with no real skills, and no romantic prospects.

I want to be the opposite of that in game.

[PhoneLobster]

In real live, I'm an overweight, goofy-looking guy with no real skills, and no romantic prospects.

I want to be the opposite of that in game.

?

An under weight, stern looking girl with all real skills and ceaseless romantic prospects?

[CalibronXXX]

1189288027[/unixtime]]An under weight, stern looking girl with all real skills and ceaseless romantic prospects?

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if that's what he meant.

[ckafrica]

Right I was hoping for a clearly defined ability like "sneak and run at the same time" so we could make a list that people could use to thump out feats/spells/abilities/whatevers that fit the bill. This would sort of give us a checklist of things to try to make work so we don't need to depend on WOTC to do it for us as we know they wont.

[JonSetanta]

1189288027[/unixtime]]

In real live, I'm an overweight, goofy-looking guy with no real skills, and no romantic prospects.

I want to be the opposite of that in game.

?

An under weight, stern looking girl with all real skills and ceaseless romantic prospects?

Ah. My girlfriend.

[tzor]

1189285737[/unixtime]]What I want my characters to do is simple: I want my characters to be cooler than I am.
In real live, I'm an overweight, goofy-looking guy with no real skills, and no romantic prospects.
I want to be the opposite of that in game.

You mean you don't want to play a rotund gnome bard who has been permanently enlarged to medium size?

[CalibronXXX]

I once played a Gnome Illusionist that was maxed out on the height/weight charts and went around enlarged all the time. Bugger was near 7 1/2 feet tall and almost 400 pounds.

[JonSetanta]

1189343726[/unixtime]]I once played a Gnome Illusionist that was maxed out on the height/weight charts and went around enlarged all the time. Bugger was near 7 1/2 feet tall and almost 400 pounds.

With a head over 3 feet wide, no?

[CalibronXXX]

Aye.