Okay, seriously this time, who put out that Elves=Magic?

[Lago_AM3P]

Okay, so, apparently, elves are super magical and have the most l33t magic ever and blah-blah-blah.

Where did this idiocy come from?

From what we know about elves, they A) take a really, really long time to get their first level in wizard. B) are chaotic and loathe to share their knowledge. C) extremely conservative in their beliefs.

This leads me to believe that elves really SUCK at arcane magic. The only thing they have going for them is that they live a long time. Uh, it only takes about a year to become an epic-level wizard and then you get immortality anyway. The biggest hurdle is getting that first level and it seriously takes elves over a hundred years. By this time, there have been four generations of human wizards all with probably their own generations of magically inclined people.

You can get me to believe that dwarves are the movers and shakers of magic because even though they breed and learn slow they keep an extremely detailed ledger of every magical formulae in existence. You can get me to believe that halflings have l33t magic because they're incessantly in pursuit of creature comfort and love sharing the knowledge with other halflings. Hell, you can get me to believe that GOBLINS have l33t magic because they breed and take their first levels so goddamn fast.

But elves? Gimme a break.

[cthulhu]

Theory time!

Maybe because they are so long lived the percentage of them that make that first level is much greater - so EVERYONE is a mage?

[Catharz]

If elves aren't good at magic, they're good at nothing. They're also supposed to be somewhat apostate (fuck you Corellian Lolthian).

But sorcerer always made more sense than wizards, with the exception of ghey elves (read the flavor text).

[Lago_AM3P]

Maybe because they are so long lived the percentage of them that make that first level is much greater - so EVERYONE is a mage?

Are you trying to tell me that the chances of you living to see you have a successful career in a dangerous field goes UP the longer it takes?

If elves aren't good at magic, they're good at nothing.

Elves are extremely badass hunters. They're stealthy, they notice things better, and require less sleep. That's got to account for something.

[cthulhu]

1189732398[/unixtime]]

Maybe because they are so long lived the percentage of them that make that first level is much greater - so EVERYONE is a mage?

Are you trying to tell me that the chances of you living to see you have a successful career in a dangerous field goes UP the longer it takes?

mhm, I think frank said at one point that there are two ways to become a super l33+ archmage. one is sit in a room and study for a bazillion years, the other way is to set orcs on fire.

I kinda subscribe to that theory.

Which makes the 'study to get levels' batch of elves a large cohort. Admittedly this is probably my prejudices showing though - in Warhammer 40k the eldar (ie elves) pick a field and study it until they are god damn ninjas.. and they pick a new field.

[Captain_Bleach]

We get the Elves=magic from diehard Tolkien fanboys/girls who think that Elves are superior in every way to non-Elves. Also, do not forget about the R.A. Salvatore and Drizz't fans who think that Dark Elves rock and make almost every character a Drow Ranger dual-wielding scimitars with a panther animal companion.

[JonSetanta]

The myth connection related Elf with Fey, but that was seperated with time and multiple writers.

Tolkein's Elves were semi-divine, and I think many fantasy writers ignore or are oblivious to that fact. As a common, run around in the dirt, have fun with humans and dwarves PC race, it doesn't hold up well, yet people tend to have those same Tolkeinish expectations.
That's what I've noticed.

[Captain_Bleach]

That's why I have not run a LotR RPG by Decipher. All my players would be Elves, as they rock so hard compared to Hobbits, Humans, and Dwarves.

[Lago_AM3P]

mhm, I think frank said at one point that there are two ways to become a super l33+ archmage. one is sit in a room and study for a bazillion years, the other way is to set orcs on fire.

I kinda subscribe to that theory.

That houserule would screw the elven race even MORE.

After elves or anyone gain their first level, they advance pretty goddamn fast. Like, in the span of weeks. However, this only applies to characters who get their mojo by adventuring.

There's no schedule for advancement for people who level up through means that aren't violence. Presumably they would advance in accordance with how they age. You seriously can't have me believe that even though it takes 120 years for a non-adventuring elf to take his first level in wizard that he can become a level 10 wizard in only 20 or even 80 more years.

[JonSetanta]

Yep. By biological standards, elves would be extinct pretty damn fast.
And goblins would have the first archmage, since their genetic randomness would produce a genius through probability. That archmage would cheat physics, and in essence, win for the whole race.

[Captain_Bleach]

1189734721[/unixtime]]Yep. By biological standards, elves would be extinct pretty damn fast.
And goblins would have the first archmage, since their genetic randomness would produce a genius through probability. That archmage would cheat physics, and in essence, win for the whole race.

What makes Goblin genetics so random? By how they are portrayed in D&D, they seem to be largely the same; small, crafty, wilderness scouts that have no examples of magical geniuses. Sure, they have average Int and Wis, but i never hear of a Goblin Archmage.

[JonSetanta]

Rolling stats dude.
Roll those 3x6, you're set.
Having faster reproductive cycles means more re-rolls as a race and population.

Of course, it's not required for good archmages, but it's nice to have, and gives that extra edge.

The real problem is in becoming a good Wizard, since Sorcerer will probably not cut it in the long run.

Goblin Sorc vs Elf Wizard. hmmm

*Spell Immunity*

[cthulhu]

I'm not so sure it would - it does if you read it as everyone takes an equal time amount of time to reach maturity as it does to gain a level. I don't think there has to be any connection between knowledge based level up times from 0 -> 1 and 1 -> 2

Hell, if you don't say that goblins would rule the world.

Except, of course, if you see elves as the first master race, so they've always had the level 30 zillion arch mages who've warded elven cities with arbitarium.

[Crissa]

Why would rateLearn == rateAging?

-Crissa

[Cielingcat]

Goblins have a Charisma penalty.

Also, the Eldar are very different from Elves. They live a billion years (thousand), but they're much more passionate about everything-which is why some of them actually get trapped in their paths and become Exarchs.

[cthulhu]

Yeah, you are right about the passion thing.

Edit: It's a shame the rules have never really reflected the levels of badassery a serious exarch should have. I mean if you spent 500 years teleporting around the place and fighting, you are going to be fully hardcore.

Marines suffer from same same too actually. Damn i hate the 40k rules.

[Cielingcat]

Exarchs are WS/BS 5. That's pretty damn hardcore. Remember, the scale here is 1-10; S3 is a normal human, and S10 is enough to punch through a Land Raider half the time.

[cthulhu]

1189748732[/unixtime]]Exarchs are WS/BS 5. That's pretty damn hardcore. Remember, the scale here is 1-10; S3 is a normal human, and S10 is enough to punch through a Land Raider half the time.

Is it? Damn, I thought it was 4. Whoops.

Point still stands about space marines vs imperial guard (catchan jungle fighter is same WS as a marine.)

What does make the difference is the armour - which is suppose why marines feel tough and eldar feel squishy.

[Koumei]

On Elves:

Fanboys. That's the long and short of it. I noticed quite some time ago that the shorter the lifespan, the better the Wizard you make. But the elf fanboys I explained it to didn't like that idea. The only argument they could provide though is "elves are better at everything", and they suggested that, because they're like a million years old at level 1, they should start at higher levels. They really didn't like me comparing elves to the special education class, while goblins were the advanced class.

I just think the slow-growing, slow-reproducing race with a Con penalty and who like pissing off other races should die out. That'd be awesome. A world with no elves.

No elves.
No dwarfs.
No warforged.
Awesome things only.
FINAL DESTINATION.

On Space Marines not being as awesome as the fluff implies:
In "Inquisitor", Space Marines are that special kind of broken. I played a game of it once with one marine vs a psykic Inquisitor (with a demon-sword) and his 2 little Imperial Guard dudes.

Round 1: one Imp Guard dies. Horribly. Also, the Marine's force field blinds the other one. The marine gets knocked to the ground by something.

Round 2: The blind guard manages to attach a melta bomb to the marine. Rolled randomly for location, it melted his crotch away. Much lulz for everyone.

Round 3: The marine kills the guard and stands. He's pretty much regenerated to full health again.

Rounds 4-10: The Inquisitor fails to leave any meaningful impact on the marine.

Round 11: Both give up and go home.

And in Geneseed, which was as balanced as Rifts (that is to say, not at all), although Space Marines are nothing special for the first 5 levels (as Scout Marines), at level 6 when they fully grow and get their power armour, they can walk all over absolutely everything.

[shirak]

1189755316[/unixtime]]I just think the slow-growing, slow-reproducing race with a Con penalty and who like pissing off other races should die out. That'd be awesome. A world with no elves.

No elves.
No dwarfs.
No warforged.
Awesome things only.
FINAL DESTINATION.

That's exactly what I'm doing with my setting. Of the PHB races only humans and halflings exist. Gnomes left for the Shadow Moon, Dwarves are a Halfling mutation that is trying to establish itself and Elves died off because they told a bunch of Titans to get their Great Cloud out of the way of the sun and the Titans seriously buried them under tons of giant garbage. There's even a monument and everything called Lamentation of the Forest's Guardians (Garbage Mountain out of earshot of the Last Elf).

1189755316[/unixtime]]Rounds 4-10: The Inquisitor fails to leave any meaningful impact on the marine.

Why didn't the marine, I don't know, kill the Inquisitor or something?

[erik]

I think the idiocy of elves has more to do with them requiring 100+ years of diapers before they can get their ears wet adventuring. That makes them retarded no matter the context, be it magical supremecy or simply why they haven't been wiped off of the face of the planet.

There's plenty of source for elves being mystical creatures or at the very least, uber men superior in every way to humans. DnD tries to blend that with them being apparently the slowest learning/maturing race in existence... and shockingly they fail to pull it off convincingly.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

1189761113[/unixtime]] Elves died off because they told a bunch of Titans to get their Great Cloud out of the way of the sun and the Titans seriously buried them under tons of giant garbage. There's even a monument and everything called Lamentation of the Forest's Guardians (Garbage Mountain out of earshot of the Last Elf).

Dude, maybe it's been too long since I've been to the WotC boards*, but that is seriously one of the most RETARDED things I've ever heard. It's so implausable that I'm half expecting you sat around with your friends over a case of cheap beer trying to decide the most humiliating racial extinction you could find. "Hur Hur, let's have titans make them their landfill. It's ironic cuz elves are trash". Couldn't you at least, yanno, put some effort into it?

Desdan

*No it hasn't.

[Koumei]

Yeah, they tried to balance them for play and also make them appeal to the fanboys.

I approve of the Titans killing the lot of them, even if that is a bit... *trying to find the word* It'd be difficult to take seriously. Which only matters in some games, granted.

As for why the Space Marine didn't kill the Inquisitor, it really tried. But they basically had to deal not only with each other's forcefields, but also with regeneration. So on the odd occasion that a shot would get through and hurt either one, they'd regenerate it by the time they got hit again.

[shirak]

It's one of the few things that are comic relief in the setting. Since the basis is a constant war between basically everybody, this was meant to illustrate that arrogance is a bad idea. It's a moral lesson: If you want to force a group of powerful monsters to do what you want you have to go there and beat the crap out of them. Yelling and whining don't work.

Plus, we fvcking hate Elves.


I see that the idea is indeed stupid and I'm open to changing it. How would a continent of Giants with a caste system based on race and controlled by Titans annihilate a forest of Awakened Trees and Animals and Elves? It all happened very fast and completely destroyed the forest. It was also a display of the Giant's Elemental magic.

Create Water: Massive quantities of water that sinked the forest and created a lake in it's place.

Mass Walls of Stone: Buried under a mountain of rock slabs

Fire: Hurray for Transmute Rock to Lava. Leaves behind a nice wasteland too.

Air: Tornadoes and hurricanes, oh my.

Wood: Isn't really the Element for this. I'm open to interesting ideas still

[Lago_AM3P]

Why would rateLearn == rateAging?

It probably shouldn't mean anything in either direction.

But we do know that it takes elves a hella long time to gain their first level in wizard. It shouldn't have anything to do with elves' slow physical maturity. The reason why it takes so long for elven wizards to be able to cast first level spells is either cultural laziness or some sort of inborn learning deficiency. I'm inclined to believe that it's the former, since those manic elven wizards who actually go on adventures gain levels as fast as everyone else.

But the fact of the matter is that in the time it takes for an elven wizard to learn his first cantrips a human wizard can have great-grandchildren who can also have levels in wizard. Something's up here.