Contemplating Metamagics

[Username17]

I'll level with you all: neither Keith nor I are totally jazzed about Metamagic feats. A modified spell is not the equal of a spell that was initially of the appropriate level. That makes it on the face of it a broken mechanic unless you figure out something stupid to do with it. Paying a feat slot to have an ability which isn't level appropriate is really sketchy. And when people figure out obscure ways to reduce the cost of metamagic to cheap or free and then perform tasks which are overpowered for their level that makes us feel even worse.

The Evoker is a shitty thing for a Wizard to be, and the fact that you can stack up a bunch of sudden and Divine metamagics to jack up your searing ray to the point where it kills things is at least as bad as the fact that fireballs aren't effective ways to get rid of trolls.

I actually don't want spellcasters to get level-appropriate damage. They already get more tactical options than anyone in the game, and once they can match the damage of a non-spellcaster then you don't need a non-spellcaster.

In an ideal system, fighters and mages both have actions that either do small damage and tactical things or big damage and no tactical things, but until that mythical day I'd be happy if fighters get the damage and mages get the options.

That being said, we're pretty much not impressed with where D&D has gone and where it is going. The effort it would take to get things in place seems way more than we can possibly do while working on our respective degrees. Both of us are at this point looking more into just writing separate game systems entirely and working from there.

But let's say that you were looking to play a game of D&D and you wanted to play a Wizard and spend your feats on adjusting your spells. Well here are some things which probably should not happen:

• Metamagics should not cost spell levels. So you shouldn't be paying feats to use high level slots to cast high level spells - your spell slots can already do that.
  
  
• Metamagics should not stack. The thing where players get up in the morning with a bunch of metamagics and run them all together to killer combo has got to stop. Like double quick.
  
  
• Metamagics should not be numerical in effect. In general, adding numbers to other numbers is the shittiest part of the game, and I don't want to do it. It's hard work, you lose track, and at the end of the day there's only three possibilities: a level appropriate stack of number (in which case why are you bothering?), a sub-par stack of number (in which case you're just doing to slight of hand to obfuscate people you are screwing), or an overpowered number stack (in which case the player is just doing slight of hand to obfuscate the fact that he is cheating). Any bonus is either required or unnecessary and in either case should not be available as a selectable class feature.

OK, so with that out of the way, a Metamagic feat wants to provide an option instead of a bonus. It wants to be unstackable. Here's Keith again:

I like the Explosive Spell model. It does more damage because it throws guys around into objects.

The "add feat for more damage" model just lets you kill guys a round or so earlier, but its not actually more fun to use.

Would you rather kill someone with a straight Lightning Bolt that does more damage, or would you rather toss them across the room on the end of a Lightning Bolt?

Now, I'm not charging the two levels that WotC wants.
In fact, I wouldn't charge any. Considering that it throws enemies away from full attacking Fighters(who are most likely not Chargers), its as much of a penalty as a benefit.

Which brings up another point: Swift Actions. I fucking hate them. Keith hates them. We both think they are bad for the game. They are an extra level of complication and delay which slows down the game above and beyond what is strictly required. But we also don't really have any better ideas for keeping things off the crazy-stacking chain.

So here's a basic outline:

A proper metamagic feat would be something like Explosive Spell, Shape Spell, Fell Animate or any of that other crap and applying it to your spell would be a Swift Action. Or maybe a Move Action. I don't even care. Ideally any Metamagic effect would be approximately a 2nd level effect which, like Explosive Spell was actually useful at higher levels and interestingly cumulative with whatever it was that your spell did.

Kind of like a Reserve Feat, except that you actually have to (and get to) use your regular magic to have it work. Meh. If we actually write a fantasy roleplaying game, it won't work like this.

-Username17

[Bigode]

1196012703[/unixtime]]That being said, we're pretty much not impressed with where D&D has gone and where it is going. The effort it would take to get things in place seems way more than we can possibly do while working on our respective degrees. Both of us are at this point looking more into just writing separate game systems entirely and working from there.

First, do you think about making something of the like together? Second, I've heard in the past K had written stuff on his own, but never found a link - does any exist? Last, on the very likely hypothesis of this meaning the Tome series' gone for good (compounded by the end of 3.x), I'd ask you (and K) to dump all unfinished material - the fact that isn't polished likely doesn't keep it from being (much) better than what WotC puts out.

1196012703[/unixtime]]Metamagics should not stack. The thing where players get up in the morning with a bunch of metamagics and run them all together to killer combo has got to stop. Like double quick.

Why? It could be made for them to always have a cost - then, what'd be the problem?

1196012703[/unixtime]]Which brings up another point: Swift Actions. I fucking hate them. Keith hates them. We both think they are bad for the game. They are an extra level of complication and delay which slows down the game above and beyond what is strictly required. But we also don't really have any better ideas for keeping things off the crazy-stacking chain.

OK, I don't like swift actions too; but I think the ideal round would be 2 partials/1 immediate, so I favor the immediate action (and would fold AoOs into it). But what's really bad to make you "fucking" hate them? While I consider it unneeded, I don't get any problem from it except from a minor need of extra attention.

1196012703[/unixtime]]Kind of like a Reserve Feat, except that you actually have to (and get to) use your regular magic to have it work. Meh. If we actually write a fantasy roleplaying game, it won't work like this.

You mean "it will"?

[Username17]

You mean "it will"?

No. I genuinely mean that it will not. When Keith contemplates gaming he's looking at fixing power and diversity to level. Making a game where Monster Level and Player Level really were directly equivalent. I'm mostly considering an unlevelled skill base combined with static world-based challenges where characters of different levels could fight side by side without that being especially problematic.

However it's important to note that neither one would allow people to spend feats on "Improved Fireball Options" - in Keith's vision the versatility and strength of Fire Magic would be fixed to character level. You'd spend your level's ability alotments into Fire Magic or you wouldn't, and they would come out of the gate level appropriate whether they were inflicting raw damage or doing small amounts of damage and advancing tactics. And in my vision I think more powerful spells would simply cost more to use and characters would simply gradually accumulate options and diversity as they adventured.

This is a sketch of something to work with the current system, which neither of us are super jazzed about working in any more.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1196012703[/unixtime]]
Which brings up another point: Swift Actions. I fucking hate them. Keith hates them. We both think they are bad for the game. They are an extra level of complication and delay which slows down the game above and beyond what is strictly required.

I found this pretty interesting, since it's about the only part of the post that I disagree with. Why don't you like swift actions? If anything, I found them a wonderful way to manage secondary actions.

[Neeek]

1196044636[/unixtime]]

1196012703[/unixtime]]
Which brings up another point: Swift Actions. I fucking hate them. Keith hates them. We both think they are bad for the game. They are an extra level of complication and delay which slows down the game above and beyond what is strictly required.

I found this pretty interesting, since it's about the only part of the post that I disagree with. Why don't you like swift actions? If anything, I found them a wonderful way to manage secondary actions.

Swift actions tend towards being unbalanced, as if one character can't use theirs, a common occurrence for many characters, then a character getting any benefit at all from theirs is at a significant advantage.

[Voss]

That was a problem all the way back when they were just free actions (with just plain old quicken spell). Or, in some ways, any of the Mass <whateverthehell> spells. (Hold monster and quickened hold monster are actually worse than Mass Hold Monster, # of targets and higher Save DC) Its just one of the ways spellcasters in 3rd were made of win.

Mind you, some of the metamagic feats poke huge holes in the system. Chain Spell makes for some crazy shit, especially when you realize that if you cast non-damaging, no save spells, you've got a pile of win. But then there are simple things like Split Ray, which you can pair with Enervation to create a 6th level version of Energy Drain.

K's explosive spell example is odd. Mostly because it doesn't do that. Targets are moved to the closest area outside the effect, so sideways, a grand total of 5'.

Sculpt spell is pretty good, (and its a damn steal when compared to Widen Spell- 4 10x10 cubes are almost always going to better than just doubling the area) but doesn't work well with some spells. Color Spray in particular, since the 15' range limit eats most of the additional area of effect. Spells sadly don't spread beyond their range, even if the AoE goes outside it.

[RandomCasualty]

1196045722[/unixtime]]
Swift actions tend towards being unbalanced, as if one character can't use theirs, a common occurrence for many characters, then a character getting any benefit at all from theirs is at a significant advantage.

Well I can totally see that, but the ToB and probably 4E will follow the pattern of giving fighter types swift action stuff to use. I always felt like the swift added a little more diversity to the game.

[Voss]

Immediate actions have been mentioned several times in 4E previews. They'll be there.

[RandomCasualty]

1196049129[/unixtime]]Immediate actions have been mentioned several times in 4E previews. They'll be there.

Yeah, in fact I like the idea that doing stuff, whatever it is, costs you an action. The biggest game slower IMO is all this shit that generates new types of actions. Extra AoOs, Extra move actions, special free actions that let you do random stuff, all that BS.

That really bogs down the game IMO.

If the designers just stick to: standard, move and swift/immediate, then things will be good.

[K]

K's explosive spell example is odd. Mostly because it doesn't do that. Targets are moved to the closest area outside the effect, so sideways, a grand total of 5'.

I was imagining a better and more fun version of Explosive Spell, and not the one currently in use which is almost unusable.

[Jacob_Orlove]

1196027116[/unixtime]]When Keith contemplates gaming he's looking at fixing power and diversity to level. Making a game where Monster Level and Player Level really were directly equivalent. I'm mostly considering an unlevelled skill base combined with static world-based challenges where characters of different levels could fight side by side without that being especially problematic.

Both of those sound super awesome.

[JonSetanta]

Keith, I'll devour any Explosive Spell variant you come up with, and beg/browbeat my next DM to let me use it.

And Frank, are you stating with your third "Should Not Happen" that damage-boostesr like my 'exploding explosions' feat should not exist?
Of course, if the spells themselves were corrected in damage ratio to level then no damage booster feat really should be needed, but as the game stands is it needed?
http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewth ... thread=159

[Catharz]

So would the 'Subtle spell' metamagic still and silence your spell with a swift action, or would it be some other kind of feat?

[Judging__Eagle]

Metamagic Feats that let you do "cool shit" with your spells ahve always been more interesting to me than ones that give you more numbers.

Seriously, if you want more numbers.... you're probably a wizard or archivist.

You can get all the numbers that you want for peanuts. .... and spending time casting a spell again.

No one really cares that you cast Call Lighting for 3-30 damage all you want, b/c you cast Haste and Fly every combat, with "not your gold" (aka.. party gold or other PC donated cash/scrolls) from scrolls.

Of course, damage spells and buff spells need to be handled differently. As do scrolls.