More Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both

[the_taken]

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.ph ... r][br]Mage hand on steroids? Really?


Eidt-> Link to the last page of the old thread:
http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewth ... stnum=1225

[Voss]

That doesn't bother me nearly as much as the stupid shit right above it.
Really. Take arcane archer levels.

Though two posts above that is Profession: Makeup Applicator.

Stupid people for the win.

The charge build isn't that bad, though. Except for Empower spell tacked on at the end.

[PhoneLobster]

Damnit. I demand this thread be renamed "Threads that make you go Hmmm."

I'm well sick of this laugh and cry thing, like its some kind of family holiday special event.

[MrWaeseL]

Name it 'Threads that are SHIT' because that's all this is anyway. The only laughter is wry laughter.

[Jacob_Orlove]

On that note,
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost ... ostcount=6

[Username17]

You know the original thread is quality as well. In fact, the OP is probably more quality than the linked tirade.

There have been arguments back and forth about how fighter-types can be just as good as caster-types, and I believe that is definitely possible.
...
Still, it seems like that someone must be an *expert* in order to find all the right items (smoke bottles, UMDing polymorph, etc) and right tactics and right build for melee-types.

Right. If your "melee type" is casting fourth level spells he can be just as good as a caster!

-Username17

[Captain_Bleach]

The problem is that the non/partial casters are using magic items. I would not be as irked if the items weren't magic. Let's face it, who makes the magic items? Spell casters. The illusion of balance just gives casters more power tipped to them on the scale of balance.

[JonSetanta]

But what if noncasters could emulate spell-item creation, like the Warlock ability combined with free magic item creation feats?
I realize it's a loophole, that noncasters would be relying on spells while simultaneously trying to best the creators of said techniques, but as far as effects go... one could have "extraordinary nonmagic items".

[MrWaeseL]

Right. If your "melee type" is casting fourth level spells he can be just as good as a caster!

Not just any 4th level spells, but Polymorph!

[Username17]

1198270522[/unixtime]]But what if noncasters could emulate spell-item creation, like the Warlock ability combined with free magic item creation feats?

So the ideal "non-caster" is an artificer?

-Username17

[JonSetanta]

I don't mean ideals. I mean opening the possibility of supernatural item creation to anyone.
What would this change?

[Crissa]

Then you get arguments that the Fighter is balanced because they have Profession: Swordsmith or some stupid answer like that.

Not that I'm opposed to any class making magical devices - if they can use them, there's no particular reason why they can't assemble them with the skill roll and story hoops.

But I've seen that argument, and it's particularly flawed. Much like the steal-the-spellbook argument.

-Crissa

[Voss]

Nothing. Everyone would still have a giant pile of items to replace their shitty class abilities. Really, the edge a fighter has over the warrior is practically non-existent.

[Koumei]

There was a thread (it no longer exists) that shows us the wonders of Epic skill checks. Specifically, Escape Artist.

DC 80: Extremely Tight Space

Extremely Tight Space: This is the DC for getting through a space when one’s head shouldn’t even be able to fit; this can be as small as 2 inches square for Medium-size creatures. Halve this limit for each size category less than Medium-size; double it for each size category greater than Medium-size. If the space is long, such as in a chimney, multiple checks may be called for.

See, I'm sure they were thinking of sliding between the bars in a cage, or moving up a chimney, except it was pointed out, on the thread which exists no longer, that one could therefore use such a skill check to fit inside someone's arse. Indeed, the entire party could fit themselves in the backside of a hireling/captive/monster that they hit with a Hold Monster spell, and then choose the right moment to leap out, surprising all foes.

Or using one of the "You grow. If you are in a container or room that you can't fit in, make a STR check to break it open." abilities. Possibly while wearing full plate.

A CharOp board thread was made to try getting +70 (so as to take 10) as early as possible, with ideal abilities to use once there, but I don't like the chances of it not being deleted.

[Crissa]

That's the dumbest thing. If your head doesn't fit... Augh.

And why do they have to delete entire threads when someone posts something stupid on the thread instead of the stupid itself?

-Crissa

[Koumei]

No, that was the point of the thread itself. The thread started with that and went downhill from there.

Now, while I have no problem with skills doing awesome things in a world where magic can also do awesome things, it's just a matter of "Someone thought about this the wrong way, and got everyone else thinking".

[Crissa]

Yeah... I think fitting into a space smaller than you are physically isn't really something I want a skill to do, though.

...But only because I wouldn't want talk like that.

-Crissa

[Leress]

Eldritch Knight Rebuild

IdleAltruism hurts my mind.


Toughness Revised and Reborn

Hmmm...
While better than most other revisions of Toughness, 7 feats that's plain bad

At best You get DR 7/-, death at -15, rerolls on HP gain, Energy resistance 9 to a single type(that stacks), heal non-lethal damage twice as quickly, and +58 hp. If you took each feat once (since most classes could only do just that)

[MrWaeseL]

Congratulations, IdleAltruism! 'Just because a PrC doesn't see much action it does not mean it needs to be changed. The eldritch knight is a good PrC and really doesn't need to be changed.' is today's quote of the day!

[Bigode]

If asking for help isn't anathema for this thread: bright blade, at WotC and Feybook - whaddya say about the class?

Koumei: while I haven't heard "arse" specifically mentioned, I've heard of a game where hiding inside people was a mainstay. The worse's that I've nothing to complain about the GM about what I played with him ...

[Username17]

The Bright Blade is... not good. The lack of heavy armor proficiency only makes any difference between late in level 2 (when you can finally afford to get some plate armor) and late in level 6 (when you'll be wearing Mithril like everyone else and not care). And the lack of a polearm option doesn't make your character any weaker provided that it was your intention to fight Sword and Board or shill out a feat for the spiked chain. So at first level you're mostly no worse than a ranger. But the lack of proficiency with javelins really hurts a character who is supposed to fight with a shield, and the lack of sling proficiency is surpringly important when fighting the undead at low levels. Wildstrike is essentially worthless, as at low levels there isn't anything that you can hurt with a chaotically aligned weapon that you can't hurt with whatever you happen to be holding.

First Level: You are slightly worse than an NPC Warrior in most instances. An actual Ranger is massively superior to you even if he never meets his favored enemy even once. But it's first level and anyone with scale mail, a longsword, and a heavy shield is pretty much interchangeable with any other such character on the front line.

Second Level: Song of Glory is not a good ability. It doesn't specify that it doesn't give bonuses to your enemies, by the way. However, spending an action to give all your friends +1 to-hit and damage for the rest of combat is a very marginal ability. And you need to set skill ranks on fire for Perform (Sing), which means that Rangers have 3 more skill points per level than you do.

Third Level: Finally, a decent ability! You get to add an extra stat to your saves. You still have offense worse than a Ranger however, and have no special resilience in melee. At this point the Paladin is making fun of you because he has better armor, better weapons, more hit points, and better special abilities. The Ranger is making fun of you because he has better weapons, more skills, and better special abilities. You're not completely useless by any means because you have a longsword, a shield, and a chain shirt. So you can stand on the front line and smack kobolds around with the slightly better melee artists (which would be any of the PHB classes - even Fighters) and not feel totally inadequate. Heck, if you rolled better than everyone else for stats, you might be pulling your weight.

Fourth Level: OK, this is just irredeemably bad. "Armored Spellcaster" is not an ability! The equivalent characters (Rangers and Paladins) get divine spells so they can cast in armor anyway. Further, while the Paladin and Ranger lists are mostly crap with some super awesome crap hidden in there (like entangle for Rangers and bless weapon for Paladins), the Bright Blade list is all crap. The best spell on there is ghost sound and you can get that for free at first level by playing a Gnome. You even have to deal with a Spells Known List, while the Ranger gets to know all the crazy crazy from Spell Compendium for free.

Fifth and Subsequent Levels: You don't get any real abilities. Ever. The first and only vaguely decent thing you will ever do is learn the Chaos Blade spell at character level 14. But you're level 14, you're fighting Gelugon in melee, and I don't even care if you can cast that spell once a day because of your Stat bonus.

----

Fixing it? I don't even know. I have no clue what that class is even supposed to do at any level. It seems to have been put together with the idea that if you cut some of the Paladin abilties in half and cut some of the Bard abilties in half and glued them together that you'd have something that you cared about. While in reality that just means that you don't have any level appropriate abilities.

-Username17

[Voss]

The spell list is also crap. Just... bad. There are one or two spells at most levels that are worth taking and the rest are just...
fluff. First level. Color spray! Silent image, if your DM isn't an ass. And... done.

One particular stand out in the spell list. Slow got bumped to 4th, for no apparent reason. Lets consider for a moment. If you are a real caster, you get this at 5th. If it stayed as a 3rd level spell, you'd get it at 7th. As a 4th level spell, this poor bastard can't get it until 10th level. Yes, the DC is all of 1 higher, but so the hell what? He's trying to seriously cast slow at 10th level. And haste, hmm.

[Bigode]

Hm, it appears that the retarded naysayers have already managed to snuck some changes to what I considered a decent class (before it was posted at WotC). I'll take the current version home and compare, but a quick question: what about the wildstrike's stunning (if it ceased to exist, disregard - and if you get the address of the retard who asked for it being taken out, please give it to me)?

[RandomCasualty]

Yeah, the bright blade is weak sauce. The first thing I thought when reading this is: "Like a paladin, only weaker".

The paladin at 5th level has:
-Detect evil
-Smite evil 2/day
-Divine Grace
-Lay on hands
-Aura of Courage
-Divine Health
-Turn undead (so can use divine feats)
-Spells that can be cast in heavy armor
-special mount

The bright blade at 5th level:
-Wildstrike 2/day
-Song of Glory (+1)
-Unearthly grace
-Spells that can be cast in medium armor.

So the paladin wins out, and really the paladin isn't even that good.

[Bigode]

FVCKING FVCKERS! Pratically everything Frank pointed out was better in the last version I'd seen! I could say "read it in the Feybook, since Talisman hasn't updated it yet", but I'll do one better and pre-empt a possible upgrade (a.k.a. down-): read it here, which's the version I rated as "decent" - then you can tell me what's wrong. Regardless, that may well mean the Feybook's dead to me, though maybe I should give Talisman some credit for not yet updating the changes in the original.