I get the feeling that most posters are idiots....

[Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp]

Reading over this thread....
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/pa ... ant&page=1

I get the feeling that most posters are idiots. They have no idea of what game balance is and use their own fallible experiences to try to counter logical arguments with emotion.

I find it interesting that many of these people are making judgments about Frank and posting those rather than actually discuss what he's saying with an open mind.

It reminds me of the importance of never being rude or angry while trying to prove a point. The other person will just comment and think about the rudeness or anger rather than what you're saying.

I thought that the purpose for forums was to have reasoned discussion between open minds. I am wondering how much that happens.

Edit: I have another thought too. Why in the world are moderators so useless! The Wotc forums have gotten worse too. The moderators just pop in randomly to say "Now now, please stop flaming."

[Prak]

That's rather unfair and offensive, sir. In my experience this forum almost always gives much more meaningful and nuanced critique than others, and our idea of game balance, while, I assume, mostly comes from hearing what Frank has to say, it does certainly make sense, or, at least more sense than others' ideas of game balance. What exactly makes you think we're idiots? What, exactly, makes you think we have no clue what game balance is? To us game balance means that no one ruins the game for anyone else, or themselves, for that matter, just because of what they chose to play, and every class and race can contribute equally in a logical, sensible manner. We may differ on what is sensible, for example, some might think that Cuchalainian or Beowulfian feats of strength and endurence are perfectly logical and sensible for fighters in a fantasy setting, while others think that fighters should be more realistic. Some of us think that it's perfectly fine for creatures in fantasy settings to be crazy enough to dip their natural weapons in silver or gold or some such and actually benefit from it, mechanically, in the form of a natural weapon of said material that can be enhanced, while others think it's not, and others think it's even fine for minotaurs to walk around with gold -plated cocks and mushroom stamp people. We have many points of view over what's acceptable under balanced rules and what's too much, even if balanced. But, the one thing we generally agree on, and I would say, have a better understanding of than other forums, is what game balance is.

[Leress]

Strangely enough, form what I experienced most posters aren't idiots. They may not have rules mastery but it is a very few number that actually constantly say idiotic things.

So I disagree that most poster are idiots, but when you do find the one that are it does hurt the mind.

[Maxus]

Some of us think that it's perfectly fine for creatures in fantasy settings to be crazy enough to dip their natural weapons in silver or gold or some such and actually benefit from it, mechanically, in the form of a natural weapon of said material that can be enhanced, while others think it's not, and others think it's even fine for minotaurs to walk around with gold -plated cocks and mushroom stamp people. We have many points of view over what's acceptable under balanced rules and what's too much, even if balanced. But, the one thing we generally agree on, and I would say, have a better understanding of than other forums, is what game balance is.

When did the minotaur with the permanent gold condom come up? Was that something I missed?

[Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp]

Perhaps "most" and "idiots" are too strong of words. Maybe I should say "many" and ......"have flawed reasoning and knowledge" (some better or worse than others).

[Koumei]

When did the minotaur with the permanent gold condom come up? Was that something I missed?

Sadly, that one's my fault. I created a "new and improved" Improved Natural Weapon feat, in line with Tome material, to replace people just dipping their natural weapons in adamantine and then enhancing them, and to replace amulets of flaming spellstoring brilliant natural weapons +1 or whatever.

This led to some people wanting "dipping your natural weapons in adamantine" to be a feat, while others hating the idea because it doesn't mesh with the concept of "I'm a natural born killer, but I don't like to kill."

This eventually led to "minotaurs should be able to coat their wang in special materials and enhance them for a magic cockslap attack."

Seriously, for a lesbian, why do most things involving penises end up involving me?

[Cielingcat]

Seriously, for a lesbian, why do most things involving penises end up involving me?

Irony?

[Maxus]

I remembered--and appreciated--the Eleven Testicles feat, but I didn't ever see it involving Minotaurs getting, and I have no hesitation in saying it again, a permanent gold condom.

Edit: It's the universe fucking with you. I remember a guy in high school who, in a rare moment of adolescent male honesty, told me he knew four girls he could spend the rest of his life with and be completely happy.

Then in a span few weeks, they all came out of the closet. -resists awful lesbian joke about the speed and suddeness with which this happened- It gave him quite the complex, and he was wondering if it would happen to his buddies, too and, given his level of security in his masculinity, I'm pretty sure he was afraid that one of us would profess love to him or something.

[Talisman]

My theory re: idiots on online forums is that there are four basic types of posters:

1 - People with whom you agree.
2 - People with whom you don't necessarily agree, but whom you acknowledge have valid points, and whom you enjoy discussing matters with.
3 - People you don't feel strongly about
4 - People with whom you violently disagree

Now, the vast majority will be #3. #1 is "comfortable," and doesn't tend to excite a strong response; therefore, it gets noticed less. #2 is (in my experience) the rarest, and it takes an intelligent person to recognize it in the first place.

#4 - aka "idiots" - provoke a response all out of proportion to their numbers. If you start a thread about, say, how cool umber hulks are, and 5 poeple basically say "Hey, I killed one of those," three people say "Yeah, you're right," and two people say "You're a complete retard for saying this, and here's 3,000 words expressing why..."

The idiots will probably be the most memorable, despite the fact that they represent 20% of the posts.

Idiots also have an "idiot gravity" effect, where otherwise-decent people feel compelled to respond to them. This, of course, serves no useful purpose - they're idiots; they can't be won over by logic - and serves only to drag the thread down to Idiot Level and render it useless that much sooner.

[JonSetanta]

I remembered--and appreciated--the Eleven Testicles feat, but I didn't ever see it involving Minotaurs getting, and I have no hesitation in saying it again, a permanent gold condom.

Eleven Testicles was an awesome feat but it has an interesting one-sided gender issue. It's awesome on a male (or herm?) character, not so awesome on a female.
I explained it to my girlfriend after she was musing about feminine aggression, but after I said "Dayum she sure done got big ovaries. See? Not quite the same effect is it?"


To counter the statement that there are many idiot posters, I theorize that there are instead many who disagree with yourself and a small number of true ninnies. The distance with which others hold opinions from your own determines the degree of obnoxiousness but not necessarily their true nature.
The sheer idiocy of the minority does tend to wash over and permeate the mood of a thread, forum, or site though.

[Username17]

The way Paizo is handling their playtest actually encourages cranks. They keep saying that everyone's opinion is equally valid and that they want everyone to playtest the material with an open mind and put their ideas together.

Unfortunately, that makes the Intelligent Design Proponents wet themselves so they keep propping up every time anyone has anything scientific to say to shout them down. And they get supported on that because its their fucking opinion and it's valuable somehow.

What they should do of course is actually divide discussion between mechanical discussion and flavor discussion. And they should put down structural rules. As is, I don't think it can accomplish anything and I'm taking my temporary ban as an excuse to simply permanently ban myself. If you give scientific and unscientific opinions equal weight, you can't move forward.

-Username17

[Orion]

Wait, you seriously got banned? WTF?

[Username17]

Wait, you seriously got banned? WTF?

Yep.

I didn't get a message or anything, I just no longer have a post button. So I'm out of there for good I think.

-Username17

[JonSetanta]

I think it's how you went about it that caused the ban.
Personally, I'll avoid posting there entirely but continue to lurk for tidbits. Don't like flamewars.

[Username17]

Dude was posting attack threads directed at specific other posters. If that's the kind of input they value, they are welcome to it.

-Username17

[virgil]

It's the manner in which the others flamed you, Frank. For some reason, LL's style is barely recognized for what it is, and hence rightful defense/indignation is considered the equivalent of "throwing the first punch" by them because they don't consider what he was doing as bad.

[Voss]

Aww, man. There goes my at-work entertainment.

Crap. I wanted you to make Jason cry again.

[virgil]

There's a question. What forums have Frank not been banned from, besides this one?

[Maxus]

I can't help but wonder at the so-called etiquette most forums use. You know, things like, "Be nice" and "Don't use bad words" and "Don't crush the self-esteem of anyone".

Okay, I can see those. But despite most forums having rules like that, people do a lot more flaming and show a lot more malice than people do, for the sake of example, here, where we're allowed to say what we think and come up with creative ways to say something or someone sucks. And I haven't ever seen anyone on these boards post a thread to outright flame or start a fight with someone else.

[Judging__Eagle]

I'm not even reading most of the posts in that thread. Just people who post here and posted there.

Saves me time.

The last post is hilarious, "I beat an ogre with a fighter".

[Prak]

Seriously, for a lesbian, why do most things involving penises end up involving me?

Irony?

penis envy?

(I seriously didn't know we had lesbians on here other than crissa, and even her I only learned about like last week...)

Okay, I can see those. But despite most forums having rules like that, people do a lot more flaming and show a lot more malice than people do, for the sake of example, here, where we're allowed to say what we think and come up with creative ways to say something or someone sucks. And I haven't ever seen anyone on these boards post a thread to outright flame or start a fight with someone else.

Also when people are idiots or start flaming others, we tend to let them know they're being an idiot and they either get better, or stew to themselves. The small size of this forum actually makes it better than most simply because it's like a small town, everyone knows everyone, and some of the people here are, I get the impression, sleeping together.

[Cielingcat]

(I seriously didn't know we had lesbians on here other than crissa, and even her I only learned about like last week...)

There has been a large amount of threads discussing posters' sex lives, though most of them have been about the Count. This is where you would learn these things.

[Surgo]

I don't even know why forums have rules against flaming. If somebody is arguing like a fvcking moron, they should get flamed by people until they stop arguing like fvcking morons. I really do hate those "no flaming" rules (which are almost always one sided anyway).

[Talisman]

And I haven't ever seen anyone on these boards post a thread to outright flame or start a fight with someone else.

I hate you, Maxus! You're an idiot! And you stink! And you're funny-looking!

:twisted:

[Voss]

What they should do of course is actually divide discussion between mechanical discussion and flavor discussion. And they should put down structural rules. As is, I don't think it can accomplish anything and I'm taking my temporary ban as an excuse to simply permanently ban myself. If you give scientific and unscientific opinions equal weight, you can't move forward.

I think this is the major problem they have. Based on his response to the sorcerer thread, Jason clearly wants people to tell him they like his shit. It does matter if a small number of people tell him that, no, 2+2 != 3, as long as other people tell him they like it.

Part of it is the 'Paizo is the saviour of the true D&D' complex and all the people WotC has alienated over the last year or two. They'll take whatever crap they're given at this point, even if it has failure written all over it in big red letters.

And, of course, I'd say at least half the gaming population will accept *anything* shiny and new if it catches their interest, regardless of quality. And then defend it to the death regardless of an argument put forth.