Satanism in D&D

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue May 20, 2008 3:31 am

It's a common thought that LaVeyan Satanism can't work in D&D because D&D's fiends are inherently abrahamic in their being. I realized the other day how stupid this thought is when one considers that LaVeyan Satanism was created as an answer to Christianity. It's just a matter of outlook, with some minorchanges of motivation, and as we really don't know Asmodeus' entire motivation, who's to say it can't be this? This is something I worked up on gleemax, and am crossposting other places to see what people think(as well as to keep the idea going in the event of a flamefest on gleemax).

MadPrak_Mark2;15901770 wrote:Ok, this is an attempt at molding a particular real life religion into D&D by taking the actual philosophy and putting them with game entities. Some may recognize what I'm doing, if so, that's great, any comments on the real religion are welcome in my inbox, but here they will get this thread locked. I know this from past experience, so please refrain from commenting on the real religion here, I am seriously willing to discuss it, just not here.

The Core Belief of the Church of Asmodeus.
"The core belief is that Asmodeus is not evil, or at least that it is not a bad thing to be evil and that when one dies their philosophy or practices either have no bearing on their afterlife or merely determine who rewards them with what. It is the idea that Asmodeus had a plan when he rebelled, and did not just do it on a whim or some such but rather to provide balance to the multiverse through opposition. When he rebelled, or fell, or became corrupt, however you wish to view it, he did so because he knew that the multiverse would soon come to a point at which it would no longer survive on just the dieties of Law versus the demons of Chaos, and that it would, very soon, become divided further into those who were distasteful and those that were awesome, evil and good, that which is hateful to us is evil, and that which is glorious to us is good, for such terms are ephemeral and ultimately meaningless, my pupil. Asmodeus existed to destroy the demons, but understood that the nameless hordes birthed from the abyss would never ebb and were better balanced and checked. He also knew they were the balance of the beautiful gods of law, and that without vile beings of law, and the beautiful beings of chaos that would eventually come about should Order be upset, there is not true balance. So he and his followers began to take on forms similar to the demons they were meant to slay. This was the beginning of his fall and his plan. He bargained and courted with the gods of Law, and won autonomy and a realm from which to plan and act. He quickly brought together a group of devils, for that is what they came to be called after their casting out, and deemed they would help him rule both Hell as crowned princes, and the mortals that were developing by representing darker motives the new gods of good would, largely, try to stamp out. Motives such as ambition, greed, pride, lust, all the various "sins" which are merely nature."

Representing Mortal Nature, the Incomplete Whole
In time Asmodeus realized there were certain aspects of mortal nature that were not a devil's forte, and largely absent from them. So, he entreatied several demons and presented his case, surprisingly, the demons listened and understood and reasoned as well, and so, Asmodeus told them to pick nine demons, however they must, to be the ruling powers of the abyss and be folded into the fiendish nobility, once they had acted out their natures through various depraved and vile election techniques, nine were chosen, as well as many others that were essentially runner-ups, and these demons were crowned as Demon Princes. They represented those parts of mortal nature that were more chaotic and had ill-reflection in the devils, such the basic animal nature and drives that mortals hold within them, and, despite the token representation among devils, lust, which was much more natural to the demons than any Hell-spawned devil. With these new nobles fiendishness, the representation wasn't going to get any better, and so Asmodeus rested in this goal and began to set forth a plan.

The Nine Diabolic Statements
"Asmodeus was not much one for direct involvement, but he has planted, deeply, a certain entreaty into mortal minds, it follows as such:
1-Asmodeus, through his demon allies, represents indulgence, instead of abstinence!
2-Asmodeus represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!
3-Asmodeus represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!
4-Asmodeus represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!
5-Asmodeus represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!
6-Amodeus represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for those that would play the victim!
7-Asmodeus, through the demons, represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse, than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all!
8-Asmodeus represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!
9-Asmodeus has been the best friend the gods of good and law have ever had, as He has kept them flush with petitioners and souls all these years!"

The Place and Ways of an Asmodeun
"Many people call the asmodeuns "evil" and this is true, to a degree, as I said before, "that which is abhorrent to us, we call evil." This is true for all people, and so of course we will be called evil, but it matters not, as the actions of evil men and their drives are the catalysts for change. Would a kingdom change much if everyone was happy? Possibly, but likely not, it takes discontent before people seek change, and so from time to time, a tyrannical dictator, or a horrendous monster, or some other such nonsense is needed to change the status quo and advance the state of things. Tell me, student, would we have created the sword if we were not beset by ravenous creatures intent upon devouring us, or greedy neighbours, desirous of our land? No, would we have developed magic if we did not want for power over the things that burden us? No, and we would not be able to live as comfortably as we do. This, disciple, is our place in the world, as the catlyst for change, and to advance the state of things."

that's as much as I've got right now... should have written it down when I was originally thinking about it.

So what do the denizens think about it?

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Tue May 20, 2008 4:04 am

I think that most people should have a reason to worship Asmodeus compared to other deities. Human(oids) are selfish beings. What would worshiping Asmodeus do for you?

UmaroVI · Post by **UmaroVI** » Tue May 20, 2008 4:16 am

I do like this idea, but if it's gonna go anywhere, you REALLY need to rework the afterlife. It's not that hard for people in the D&D world to figure out "oh snap, if I worship Asmodeus, my afterlife sucks, better worship Pelor." Nor does it really cost Asmodeus anything to offer his worshippers a better deal in the afterlife - for example, turning into a halfway decent devil if you're a high level Asmodeun.

In the standard cosmology, the afterlife sucks if you're evil and is extremely awesome if you're good, which makes no sense. The afterlife should be full of whatever attracts people of that alignment/religion, or nobody in their right mind would follow it.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue May 20, 2008 5:09 am

I touched upon that, actually, and didn't feel the need to elaborate because one of the major documents this forum is centered on has this spin on it, and it's what I figure for D&D:

Tome of Necromancy wrote:In D&D, creatures do not “fall” into Evil. Being Evil is a valid choice that is fully supported by half the gods just as Good is. Those who follow the tenets of Evil throughout their lives are judged by Evil Gods when they die, and can gain rewards at least as enticing as those offered to those who follow the path of Good (who, after
all, are judged by Good Gods after they die). So when sahuagin run around on land snatching children to use as slaves or sacrifices to Baatorians, they aren’t putting their soul in danger. They are actually keeping their soul safe. Once you step down the path of villainy, you get a better deal in the afterlife by being more evil. The only people who get screwed in the D&D afterlife are traitors and failures. A traitor gets a bad deal in the afterlife because whichever side of the fence they ended up on is going to remember their deeds on the other side of the fence. A failure gets a bad deal because they end up judged by gods who wanted them to
succeed. As such, it is really hard to get people to change alignment in D&D. Unless you can otherwise assure that someone will die as a failure to their alignment, there’s absolutely no incentive you could possibly give
them that would entice them to betray it.

Draco_Argentum · Post by **Draco_Argentum** » Tue May 20, 2008 7:49 am

Too much "We're evil but we force good to improve so we're not all that bad. Pwease don't hate us."

More importantly your back story has a spiel about law/chaos. Those terms are pretty much meaningless so your working from a shonky foundation.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue May 20, 2008 10:07 am

I'm working with the pact primeval shit from FC2, and the "we're evil but we force good to change" isn't "so pwease don't hate us" it's "we're necessary, whether you like us or not."

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Tue May 20, 2008 10:09 am

If played right, this could be one of the better presentations on TGD, Prak.
Please expand all the concepts you explore in this endeavor!

But consider more defined paragraphs rather than a large block of text.

K · Post by K » Tue May 20, 2008 6:38 pm

I don't like the Pact Primieval or other BS.

Personally, I think working for Team Evil is attractive because you get away with stuff. It's not some alternate moral system where you can debate the relative values of certain acts, but it's a deal with a patron who will keep you out of the worse parts of Hell. The evil gods egg you on to greater acts of evil simply because you know you won't pay the bill at the end as long as you subscribe to their particular brand of evil.

So, maybe you worship Asmodeus and you happen to be a murderous sadist....well, in the afterlife he's going to put you to work torturing people, which is cool because you are into that. Followers of Sune kiss nymphs in a sylvan glade and followers of Pelor are armed with shining swords and recruited into heavenly armies, and followers of Bhaal end up stalking the smoking wastlands murdering petitioners too evil for Heaven but too good for status in Hell.

The whole "evil is necessary" position is just a sign of moral weakness.

Calibron · Post by **Calibron** » Tue May 20, 2008 6:55 pm

K's post well represents what I would like to say. In addition to being kind of boring, your evil backstory doesn't really mesh with your evil practices.

Asmodeous has/had this great plan to save the multiverse via balance through conflict, so be selfish and unpleasant to everyone you don't care about.

That doesn't really speak to me or seem to make much sense overall.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Tue May 20, 2008 7:10 pm

Especially since he recruited some of the demons that make his evil 'necessary' in the first place. If he can do that... why bother?

But, yeah. Evil by necessity is weaksauce. It isn't particularly interesting or evocative, its just a sad excuse to do what you want to do anyway, but don't have the stones to admit to.

Evil gods should be evil. People who worship evil gods should do it for one of two reasons

1- Normal people do it (and offer prayers, sacrifices, etc) so the evil gods won't pick on them. This is the old Evil Bitch Sea Goddess that sailors make sacrifices (a goat, a expensive model of their ship) to so she doesn't sink their boat.

2- Evil people offer up really significant sacrifices (typical cliche virgins, their own children, etc) to Evil gods in exchange for Power, long life, and not being treated like a pissant in the afterlife.

And this sort of thing...

Tell me, student, would we have created the sword if we were not beset by ravenous creatures intent upon devouring us, or greedy neighbours, desirous of our land?

The correct answer is yes, because we were a bunch of greedy bastards who wanted to pillage our neighbors. The sword is the iconic symbol of conquest, not defense.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue May 20, 2008 7:36 pm

You guys are all missing the point. This is an attempt to take LaVeyan Satanism and fit it into D&D with Asmodeus and his ilk, technically, it's not even evil! The only evil thing is the whole "consorting with fiends" deal. I was going to call the first part "The main conceit" and explain that it's not evil, but went the more philosophical, in character route. They're not evil, at worst, an Asmodeun is going to be N, but because he walks around with a symbol of the ruby staff and spouting off infernal names people are going to call him evil.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Tue May 20, 2008 7:42 pm

Didn't really miss the point. Its just that D&D deals with good and evil as absolute, real forces. Fluffy-bunny-snuggles ebil (with the little e) doesn't have much of a place.

You'd really be better off making a TN God of Practical Powermongering, if thats what you're really going for.

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Tue May 20, 2008 8:44 pm

Voss wrote:Didn't really miss the point. Its just that D&D deals with good and evil as absolute, real forces. Fluffy-bunny-snuggles ebil (with the little e) doesn't have much of a place.

You'd really be better off making a TN God of Practical Powermongering, if thats what you're really going for.

In RAW D&D, LaVeyan Satanism would be Chaotic Neutral, 'cause they don't give a damn what others think of their religion, but aren't Evil bastards that kill babies.

Calibron · Post by **Calibron** » Tue May 20, 2008 9:08 pm

I actually did understand the point you were trying to make, and I'm saying that it's boring. I like the infernals and their followers Evil.

Satanists on earth generally don't worship Satan anyway; and in a world where Satan/Asmodeous actually sent demons out to wreak havoc and steal souls the only satanists out there would be the devil summoning, virgin sacrificing, town slaughtering type. I'm sure there'd be people out there who actually made a religion out of being a dick and looking out for number one, since its a common practice in just about any world, but they wouldn't call it satanism; that would just confuse people.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue May 20, 2008 9:23 pm

Caliborn wrote:I actually did understand the point you were trying to make, and I'm saying that it's boring. I like the infernals and their followers Evil.

Satanists on earth generally don't worship Satan anyway; and in a world where Satan/Asmodeous actually sent demons out to wreak havoc and steal souls the only satanists out there would be the devil summoning, virgin sacrificing, town slaughtering type. I'm sure there'd be people out there who actually made a religion out of being a dick and looking out for number one, since its a common practice in just about any world, but they wouldn't call it satanism; that would just confuse people.

true. The idea of this project is basically to say "Asmodeus isn't as evil as you think he is" which I both kind of want to continue on with and kind of don't... Grey Morality can be fun, but it can also be boring, confusing, frustrating, etc.

I may just make a group of paragons of CN to fit as the Laveyan pantheon (because atheism is completely a different thing in D&D...) and while I was originally thinking of separating them from the Slaad, a bunch of frog folowing satanists is almost too good of an idea to pass up...

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Tue May 20, 2008 9:32 pm

The fact that D&D Good and Evil are objective forces actually gives you a fascinating for self-justifying evil: the argument that Good and Evil have nothing to do with morality.

We already know this to be somewhat true. A tiefling, no matter how purehearted and morally upright, trips detective evil because his blood contains too much evilsauce. The argument can be made therefore detect evil doesn't actually detect *evil* and should renamed Detect Skub.

Basically, LaVeyan Satanism would be a CE religion whose followers insist that D&D "Evil" is merely whatever pisses off the powers of light, and that it is entirely reasonable to be both evil and moral.

K · Post by K » Tue May 20, 2008 9:33 pm

Prak_Anima wrote:You guys are all missing the point. This is an attempt to take LaVeyan Satanism and fit it into D&D with Asmodeus and his ilk, technically, it's not even evil! The only evil thing is the whole "consorting with fiends" deal. I was going to call the first part "The main conceit" and explain that it's not evil, but went the more philosophical, in character route. They're not evil, at worst, an Asmodeun is going to be N, but because he walks around with a symbol of the ruby staff and spouting off infernal names people are going to call him evil.

Yeh, but consorting with fiends is super evil.

I mean, if you ask a fiend to go down the store and get you a Coke, he flies over, murders everyone in the store in the most awful way, and then comes back with your Coke. Ask them a question about something, and they tell you the most evil way to do that thing.

I mean, even summoning them shows them in public as figures of power who are potentially worthy of worship.

That's above and beyond the fact that self-empowerment cults are selfish and cruel on first principles. I mean, once you tell people "I'm better than you and my needs are more important than yours just because...", then people kick you out of Team Good.

Team Good is about self-sacrifice and caring about other's needs.

Team Neutral is either about running about making utilitarian choices that are evil on their face but good overall, or just not being a douche but also not sticking your neck out.

Here's a good Neutral quote from Buffy the Vampire Slayer:

GILES: Can you move?

BEN: Need... a minute. She could have killed me.

GILES: No, she couldn't. Never. And sooner or later, Glory will re-emerge and make Buffy pay for that mercy, and the world with her. Buffy even knows that, and still she couldn't take a human life. She's a hero, you see. She's not like us.

BEN: Us?

(Giles suffocates Ben)

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue May 20, 2008 9:48 pm

Okay, see, this I don't believe. K, you're essentially saying there is no place in D&D for LaVeyan Satanism, and I don't believe that.

And then I remember what LS really is in D&D, being a Druid or Ranger...

I've really got to rethink this project.

Draco_Argentum · Post by **Draco_Argentum** » Wed May 21, 2008 8:51 am

There kinda isn't a place for it in D&D's default cosmology. Team me is all well and good IRL with no heaven or hell to worry about. In D&D you have a soul and want to ensure it ends up somewhere you like after you die. A godless philosophy amongst verifiable gods. The god of self is a pipsqueak next to a D&D deity.

K · Post by K » Wed May 21, 2008 9:17 am

Yeh, the problem is that there are in fact gods in heaven and hell who know the real score behind good and evil, and there is actually objective criteria that gets you there (either one).

So, unless you define pre-set rules in your campaign that says "summoning demons is not evil", then the default setting of DnD says it is.

Basically, it's a mirror of the morality dicussion Frank and I did in Tome of Necromancy. You pick a moral option, and then play by it (jsut make sure that non-evil demons no longer have an Evil subtype, because that crap means you are made out of solid evilness with no chance of alignment change).

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Wed May 21, 2008 9:40 am

Or, as I said, decouple Good/Evil from morality.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Wed May 21, 2008 8:09 pm

Or use a different devil other than Asmo. He seems overused as The Root of All Evil throughout D&D editions.
Freedom from stereotyped expectations allows you to make a new point rather than alter a well-defined (yet juvenile) concept of an abstract alignment.

K · Post by K » Wed May 21, 2008 11:22 pm

sigma999 wrote:Or use a different devil other than Asmo. He seems overused as The Root of All Evil throughout D&D editions.
Freedom from stereotyped expectations allows you to make a new point rather than alter a well-defined (yet juvenile) concept of an abstract alignment.

Or just go off the rails.

The gods can be just like our own. Uncaring, unhearing, and we wouldn't even entertain a belief in them if so many followers didn't work so hard to convince us.

I mean, in a world where anyone can learn magic power, divine spellcasting isn't even proof of the existence of gods.

You can just have several different sects of Asmodeus worshipers who all get divine power but would go to war if their debates got too heated.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Wed May 21, 2008 11:32 pm

d20 Modern had a good re-interpretation of alignment. They did indeed go off-rail with the concept of affiliation, which is like being Team Red or Team Blue with no prepackaged moral connotations.

Devils/demons could be aligned with:
• Devilkind, for the furthering of devil races everywhere (either with or without the expense of everyone else)
• Outsiderkind, as some type of broad-minded mortalphobe... although it really is a valid concern given that any lil' peasant kid could grow up to be another Elminster.
• Evil, for a bit of the old ultraviolence.
• Law, for when something's Just Not Right.
• Nine Hells, for a singular localized, insular (and slightly cartoonish) brand of devil.

Spells that affect "opposing alignments" would instead affect other groups depending on the declared, official 'hated enemies' of your own group, like the antagonistic abilities of certain Magic card sets.
Sometimes you multicolor with the farthest ones, and sometimes you work with them. Depends on the setting.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Wed May 21, 2008 11:34 pm

K wrote:I mean, in a world where anyone can learn magic power, divine spellcasting isn't even proof of the existence of gods.

Of course it is! Can't you see the divine, nay, real ultimate power inherent in learning to cast in armor? And without sleeping!