The Gaming Den

Posted: **Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:53 pm**

I wasn't certain how to interpret the EotM sensor package changes, as you were saying they could get cyber eyes for the capacity to hold the visual sensors and the headware sensors and such need to be in cyberlimbs; and assumptions were made and hence the reason for me asking the question to figure it out.

Posted: **Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:55 pm**

so, basically, you are . . what . .
replacing a metal shell with another metal shell in a different shape?

Posted: **Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:14 pm**

I. Don't. Know. This is why I'm asking here. This is what I have to go off of:

Glitch wants her attack drone to see as well as she does, which means that it should be capable of seeing at a metahuman level in both normal and infrared spectra. The doberman itself only costs 3000¥. The thermographic vision and smartlink that she wants will take up only 3 capacity and thus will fit in a Rating 1 eye system. The total package would cost 2500¥ in a metahuman skull, but in this case it's built for a drone that has a lot less squishy bits. Sensor packages for a medium drone cost half human cyberware price, so the sensor package is just 1250¥. Together with the drone, Glitch is out 4250¥ and has a drone that can send her visual inputs just as good as her own.

Sensors are being jammed into a drone based on the capacity of a cybereye, making it logical to assume cyberear-based sensors are under a similar situation. How do you resolve the headware sensors that don't go in cybernetic eyes and ears, such as olfactory boosters and MAD scanners? Are they shoved into a cyberlimb package, with cost modified by size? Is the capacity for them ignored? Are sensors beyond eyes and ears forbidden by decree of Congress? Do they fall under the old rules, where a medium drone has a capacity of 5 or 8 for sensors?

Posted: **Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:32 pm**

ah, i see where the problem lies now . .
sadly, i have neither an answer nor a solution to that.
*points at frank*
your best bet would be the guy who basically wrote the rules on cyberlimbs.

Posted: **Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:58 am**

Oh I... should have looked at that list more closely. Sorry.

Yeah, so, basically cyber-eye and cyber-ear mods are applying mods to an existing sensor that you purchased (the base cybereye or cyberear). Whereas, those other sensors are just sensors that you're strapping on.

Probably you should apply the cybernetic size modifier to the sensor's cost and add it to the cost of the drone, but don't worry so much about capacity limits, since the size categories are a little fuzzy in the first place, and part of what you're paying money for is for mountings and balance and all that. As long as the sensor can reasonably be attached to the drone, it should be okay-ish.

Posted: **Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:32 am**

You don't have to get cybereyes for your drones. The eyeball capacity discussion was just to demonstrate the lack of effective size limits for a man sized drone. You just buy the augmentations you want, and halve the cost when dealing with a large or medium sized drone.

-Username17

Posted: **Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:57 am**

on the other hand, it would be a good way to freak people out . .
make the cyber-eyes look like real ones ripped from their sockets ^^

Posted: **Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:30 am**

For the purposes of High Density Signal, do you just have to be able to see the target, or do there have to be no solid objects between you and the target?

Can High Density Signal be transmitted through a cable?

Posted: **Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:02 am**

HDS can be sent through a cable, allowing you to draw LOS along the cable, similar to how a mage can draw LOS along a telescopic tube to look around corners and stuff.

As to how strict the LOS requirements are... I'd say "you can draw it through glass, and through partial cover, but not through full cover"

Posted: **Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:24 pm**

HDS can be sent through solid, opaque objects. There are specific rules for how far it goes through the earth (including mountains), and there are ways to block Signal via Wi-Fi blocking paint and Faraday cages. Beyond that, it seems to just go through anything you care to mention (presumably metal walls count as part of a Faraday cage, but that doesn't matter unless the windows and doors are closed and also have Faraday shielding).

Posted: **Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:42 pm**

Another question: since drones have commlinks integrated into them, can they be used as directional retransmitters?

Posted: **Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:33 pm**

don't see why not.
worst case, you fit them with a second comlink and use it that way.

Posted: **Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:13 am**

Quantumboost wrote:HDS can be sent through solid, opaque objects. There are specific rules for how far it goes through the earth (including mountains), and there are ways to block Signal via Wi-Fi blocking paint and Faraday cages. Beyond that, it seems to just go through anything you care to mention (presumably metal walls count as part of a Faraday cage, but that doesn't matter unless the windows and doors are closed and also have Faraday shielding).

"goes through objects" and "draws line of sight through objects" aren't the same thing though. Otherwise there'd be no point in some programs having a range of S and some having a range of S (LOS).

Another question: since drones have commlinks integrated into them, can they be used as directional retransmitters?

You pay for it separately, but yeah you can bolt it onto the outside and use your drone as a mobile directional re-transmitter.

Also Note: a Drone's Network stats aren't actually Generic like a commlink's are. When added to a network, the drone can't improve the network like a commlink can.

Posted: **Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:09 pm**

Sorry about the questions, but one of my players is new to these rules and planning on playing a hacker. Which programs can you remain stealthed while using, and which ones count as going in guns blazing? That is to say, if I use Taxman on a commlink, presumably I can make a matrix stealth check to have them not realize I'm nabbing their data. Conversely, if I'm blackhammering them, that's going tob e impossible. Where does one draw the line?

Posted: **Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:28 pm**

We played it that any program that has obvious effects to someone that isn't matrix stealthed, or an attack program, will ruin your matrix stealth.

So you can't Crash or Black Hammer, but you also can't Ostraka. You CAN Jedi Trick or Taxman, or Backdoor.

Posted: **Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:52 pm**

Yeah, I'm basically going through and doing a bunch of ad-hoc rulings based on rough guesses, but metaphorical divine illumination would be nice.

Posted: **Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:11 am**

Lokathor wrote:"goes through objects" and "draws line of sight through objects" aren't the same thing though. Otherwise there'd be no point in some programs having a range of S and some having a range of S (LOS).

Of course these are different. High Density Signal != LOS. I was asserting that High Density Signal can go through solid objects. Which is true, you can use an S program through a wall, even a metal wall (so long as it doesn't have crazy metamaterial paint and there are large enough holes in the building itself).

Posted: **Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:02 pm**

So I'm looking at The Ends of the Matrix again and searched for the cheat sheat table I made.
And am pretty shure, I made an mistake at Jumped In Driving, which sould be Int + Pilot Skill + Handling.

Korwin wrote:So, I am confused. Maybe I'm overthinking it...
In my (german) SR4.01A on page 287 is a table named "Common Rigger checks" (Häufige Rigger-/Drohnenproben)

I tried to order Frank's Rigging Dice Pools into it.
FrankTrollman wrote: Rigging Dice Pools
Jumped in Perception Intuition + Perception
Windowed Perception Intuition + Perception – 2
Independent Drone Initiative: Sensors + Response
Sensor Monitoring Intuition + Electronic Warfare + Sensors
Unmonitored Sensors Sensors + ClearsightAutosoft
Remote Weapon Firing Logic + Gunnery
Drone Self Firing Pilot + Targeting Autosoft
Drone Targeting Pilot + Clearsight Autosoft
Remote Drone Piloting: Reaction + Pilot Skill + Handling
Drone Self Piloting: Pilot + Maneuver Autosoft + Handling

Action Jumped In Drone without Rigger Remote Controlled
Initiative as Rigger Sensors + Response as Rigger
Attack Logic + Gunnery Pilot + Autotargeting Pilot + Clearsight?
Melee Defense Int. + Melee Skill Pilot + Defense Software Int. + Melee Skill
Raged Defense Int. Pilot Int.
Full Defense Int. + Dodge Pilot + Defense Software Pilot + Dodge
Damage Resist. no change no change no change
Infiltration Int. + Infiltration Pilot + Infiltration Software Int. + Inf.
Driving Reaction + Pilot Skill + Handling Pilot + Maneuver Autosoft + Handling Reaction + Pilot Skill + Handling
Perception Int. + Perception Sensors + Response (Windowed Perception:) Int. + Perception -2
Sensor Monitoring Int. Electronic Warface + Sensors Sensors + Clearsight Autosoft Int + Electronic Warface + Sensors

I'm pretty shure I got the Attack row wrong.
Remote Weapon Firing Logic + Gunnery
Drone Self Firing Pilot + Targeting Autosoft
Drone Targeting Pilot + Clearsight Autosoft
Whats the difference between Remote Weapon Firing and Drone Targeting?

Edit:
Another question: Is there an Programm-Limit on Net hits, while Jumped-In or Remote controlling?

Updated table below
(including the post from Quantumboost, with his clarifications)

Quantumboost wrote:@Remote Weapon Firing: I'm pretty sure that Remote Weapon Firing is if you personally are jumped in and targeting/firing the weapon through the VR interface; Logic is the Agility-corresponding mental attribute for jumping in, and Gunnery is the "shoot vehicle weapons" skill. So you roll Logic + Gunnery instead of Agility + [whatthefuckever your weapon otherwise uses].

I think Drone Targeting is the equivalent of the "Identify Targets" action under Matrix Actions. It isn't necessary if you give it an actual order to "shoot person X", and there is no equivalent for being jumped in because you're sapient and know who you want to shoot guns at. Drone Self Firing would then be the equivalent of actually firing the weapon for both "without Rigger" and "Remote Controlled". Remote Weapon Firing, but using the Programs on the drone rather than attributes/skills.

@Program Limits: While Jumped In you aren't using any programs, so there are no program limits on net hits - everything in that column uses your personal skills and either your attributes or your attributes + Sensors (which is a Drone attribute, not a program). I suspect the drone will be hitcapped by its Autosofts, which are in turn capped in Rating by its Pilot attribute. That won't apply to any action that doesn't use an Autosoft.


Rigging Pools
Action	Jumped In*	Drone without Rigger	Remote Controlled
Initiative	Rigger Matrix Ini	Sensors + Response	Rigger Matrix Ini (Hot or Cold)
Targeting	-	Pilot + Clearsight	-
Attack	Logic + Gunnery	Pilot + Autotargeting	Pilot + Targeting Autosoft
Melee Defense	Int. + Melee Skill	Pilot + Defense Software	Int. + Melee Skill
Raged Defense	Int.	Pilot	Int.
Full Defense	Int. + Dodge	Pilot + Defense Software	Pilot + Dodge
Damage Resist.	no change	no change	no change
Infiltration	Int. + Infiltration	Pilot + Infiltration Software	Int. + Inf.
Driving	Intuition + Pilot Skill + Handling	Pilot + Maneuver Autosoft + Handling	Reaction + Pilot Skill + Handling
Perception	Int. + Perception	Sensors + Response	(Windowed Perception:) Int. + Perception -2
Sensor Monitoring	Int. Electronic Warface + Sensors	Sensors + Clearsight Autosoft	Int + Electronic Warface + Sensors

*Bonus dice possible from special equipment and Hot-Sim Mode.

Are there other mistakes I made?

Posted: **Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:34 am**

FrankTrollman wrote: Threading
A technomancer can hack on the fly, but if she wishes to use Resonance Forms, she uses an Intuition + Compiling test rather than Software as her test to do so. This is called threading. Decompiling and Registering forms cannot be threaded.

Should be Resonance + Compiling, right?

FrankTrollman wrote:Hack on the Fly / Threading

The rating of a program limits the number of hits a
character can achieve on the test to activate it. A
technomancer's Cfs are normally of a Rating equal to their
Resonance, while a Hacker's programming is of whatever
rating they happen to have a copy of. By spending a
number of consecutive free actions to augment and optimize
the code, the character can make the program operate as if
its rating were increased by the number of hits the hacker
gets on a Logic + Software test or the number of free actions
spent on the attempt whichever is less. A character whose
network does not have access to a Program can still attempt
to use that Program by enhancing it from negative one.
These emulated programs cut an astounding amount of
corners and are only good for one use. Grounded as they are
in the specific time and place they were formatted in, they
will usually not even compile if copied down and run
outside their original context. Multiple hacking on the fly
attempts are not cumulative, and using a program hacked up
from nothing imposes a -2 penalty to the dicepools while
using it. A program cannot have its rating increased beyond
the network's System rating in this fashion.
Technomancers can do the same thing, though they
use their Intuition + Compiling skill rather than their
Software skill. Decompiling and Registering forms cannot be
threaded or hacked on the fly under any circumstances.
Either you know them or you do not.

Same question here.
And how high is the rating ot the improvised software?

Posted: **Sat May 17, 2014 9:54 am**

Alright, I like Frank's rules on Recoil he made in a older batch of houserules. It seems to work and reward strong users, however it doesn't seem to allow Drones to wield automatic weapons without falling over. This is speaking of the biggest kind (Body 4), is there some ability to increase body that I'm missing in Arsenal, or the houserules?

Otherwise, looks like a decent fix is to make it armor instead, or add Body twice.

Posted: **Fri May 30, 2014 7:11 pm**

If you can control your body's ability to move with EM waves in the Matrix, and your entire sensory capability, can Pain Regulators just be an app on your commlink?

Posted: **Sat May 31, 2014 7:35 am**

virgil wrote:If you can control your body's ability to move with EM waves in the Matrix, and your entire sensory capability, can Pain Regulators just be an app on your commlink?

Structurally, I don't know why you couldn't make a Pain Editor piece of software. Considering how minor wound penalties are in SR4 compared to what they were like in SR1-3, it probably wouldn't be a huge deal.

-Username17

Posted: **Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:01 pm**

For the contract laborers in the near-barrens, what is the culture with regards to the Matrix like there? Do even the street corner child prostitutes of Chicago have datajacks or trode bracelets? Are meat-space casinos inherently dirty places, akin to underground fighting rings, because all of the real money happens in Matrix-only venues?

Posted: **Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:53 pm**

Am I to understand that Pilot is not capped by the OS's System, or am I highly mistaken?

Posted: **Sat Sep 20, 2014 6:36 pm**

I don't see any reason to think that Pilot isn't capped by System just like the rest of the programs are.

Action	Jumped In	Drone without Rigger	Remote Controlled
Initiative	as Rigger	Sensors + Response	as Rigger
Attack	Logic + Gunnery	Pilot + Autotargeting	Pilot + Clearsight?
Melee Defense	Int. + Melee Skill	Pilot + Defense Software	Int. + Melee Skill
Raged Defense	Int.	Pilot	Int.
Full Defense	Int. + Dodge	Pilot + Defense Software	Pilot + Dodge
Damage Resist.	no change	no change	no change
Infiltration	Int. + Infiltration	Pilot + Infiltration Software	Int. + Inf.
Driving	Reaction + Pilot Skill + Handling	Pilot + Maneuver Autosoft + Handling	Reaction + Pilot Skill + Handling
Perception	Int. + Perception	Sensors + Response	(Windowed Perception:) Int. + Perception -2
Sensor Monitoring	Int. Electronic Warface + Sensors	Sensors + Clearsight Autosoft	Int + Electronic Warface + Sensors

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The Ends v4.01