Racial Determinism: TNE

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Racial Determinism: TNE

Post by Username17 »

Fantasy Races and Determinism
Black skinned elves are for killing.

There is an absolute limit to the number of race/culture combinations that a game world can handle, which is essentially unmodified whether there are large numbers of races or small numbers. That is, when detailing the continent, you will write up a series of different cultures until you run out of space on the map, run out of word count, run out of allotted time for world building, or are for some other reason required to stop. Whether the new group of shark cultists is an entire species of people who are so small in number that all of them in the world are members of a single tribe that happens to worship a shark, or merely a tribe of shark worshipers from one of the races previously defined is unimportant to how much writing time, word count, physical space, and conceptual space they take up during the world building exercise.

And so it comes back to a question of whether fantasy races are needed at all. If a race of scaled humanoids is not actually needed to put in the village of shark worshipers that are called for, why bother having a race of scaled humanoids at all? There isn't really an answer for that, but on some level people genuinely want there to be people from other species, even if when it comes down to the wire every single species you could name is completely expendable. So it comes that the number of races that are to be included in any world is actually completely arbitrary. Each race unnecessary, yet hopefully still cool enough as a setting piece to justify the believability their very presence damages in the reader.

Mules
Would you have sex with an owl? Maybe make some kind of half-owl?

Members of two different species can't make viable offspring between them with sex. That's what being a different species means. Any setting where there are half-orcs and half-elves is one in which by definition the orcs and elves are just kinds of humans, not really different (and certainly not importantly so) from other humans. And while that is certainly a kind of fantasy – one in which you can have sex with exotic slant eyed beauties with gracile frames – that's actually completely achievable just by going to Nippon and does not require the invocation of the otherworldly in any way.

Any race different enough to be called that should be infertile with humans and every other distinct race. This doesn't mean that you can't rub your penis on orcish ladies – it just means that you can't father any children while doing that. If you want exotic women with strange customs, different looks, foreign languages, and distinct skills with which to make a half caste child, you are more than welcome to go down to the villages of the Water Benders. They have differences in everything from their magic to their skin tone and yet they are still entirely human in every way that counts.

Humans
See these thumbs? See them!?

Humans are actually not very different one from another, and it is unreasonable to think that humanity will be especially more varied than any other particular sapient race. They often get put into the “variable” slot because authors are lazy as fuck – and since humans are the baseline of our experience anyway it's difficult to imagine humans as anything other than the blank slate upon which all others are written. But honestly that's very much not what humanity is all about. Every human's capabilities are pretty much interchangeable and the genetic variations are minuscule. Humanity is a young species that has gone through a relatively recent genetic bottleneck and our strengths and weaknesses are more normalized than almost any other animal. If there are other races in the world, especially if they are older than humanity (as common a trope in fantasy as can be found), it is reasonable to believe that they would be more varied physically than us. Indeed, humanity is virtually at the limit of sameness one member to another that a species can attain without being wiped from the world in a handful of generations.

Which is not to say that humans are a weak species. We are actually kind of cool. We learn languages super fast, we teach techniques to each other quickly and easily, we are inherently curious and experimental, and we individually have crazy lots of endurance. This mans that we can push our people all over the world and develop workable lifestyles for diverse environments and then pass those lifestyles on to our kids. Cultural diversity looms fairly large in humanity, because that's what humans do.

In a magical world, knowledge of language combines well with curiosity and experimentation in order to produce – not science – but magic. Humans were the first animal in our world to metal working, and in a magical world metal working is done with sorcery. So humans are very good at sorcery. And they can walk long distances and carry relatively large amounts of goods for long distances. The human is not a true omnislot, it's a member of an up and coming race of high endurance creatures who have developed a lot of magical techniques in a short period of time.

That is humanity in a world where magic works and other races exist.

Orcs
Waaagh!

The idea of a race which is more “savage” than humans are of course has a lot of traction. It's something to be afraid of and also to feel superior to, and I don't think that needs a whole lot of explanation. But racially speaking, a sapient race is not “savage” or “civilized” except as a group. And even then we're talking about individual tribal groups rather than racial collectivism. For every Isaac Newton you care to name, there's a Timur the Lame out there to make you feel bad about your species all anew.

That being said, our closest living relatives on Earth are indeed pretty well described as being savage. The Chimp is named pan troglodyte by scientists and they are not kidding. They have stronger musculature (but less endurance), have a more difficult time with communication, inherently rely on themselves more and help one another less, and are both easier to offend and more likely to fight than flee when startled. The chimpanzee thusly manages to take its relatively small differences from a human and become something that has never developed technology more advanced than the spear. One which has developed war and trade but not agriculture or government. To my knowledge, no chimp tribe has ever changed government because of elections, but always instead by combat or betrayal.

These traits though are frankly too much for a fantasy race that is expected to be of much threat in any circumstance other than “It's jumping at you out of a tree, what the blargh!” which of course is also a circumstance in which leopards and jaguars have been terrorizing humanity for millennia. For a race to be really meaningful in a magical world they have to be making some of that magic. Magic of sword making. Making of setting shit on fire. Magic of killing fools in their sleep. That sort of thing.

The less technically competent hominids were all still hominids. They imitated well. Even when the Neanderthals went a hundred thousand years without seemingly changing their construction techniques or creating different material culture (at least, of that material culture which survived the eons to be found by our archaeologists), they still adopted any technical developments that humans showed up with quickly enough that it doesn't even show up as time in the archaeological record. And so it is that a race of monstrous humanoids would still be capable of using any magic and any tool that they were exposed to if they were to be called humanoids at all.

So what do the orcs do? Well, first of all they've been around longer than humans have. Secondly, they are physically stronger than humans are. They have sharp teeth and are therefore carnivores, complete with having the shorter intestinal system that carnivores are saddled with. They have less endurance and less patience than humans do. Backstory wise, this means that they came up with a lot of simple magics long before humans even existed, but that their more complicated magics were invented by humans and then the orcs learned them from teachers.

Culturally? Whatever they want to do. Orcs still have children and parents and language and knowledge and so on and so forth. Their biological demands make civilization very different for orcs than for humans, because they don't benefit from agriculture directly. They literally had to skip the entire period of human agriculture where we lived on grain and onions, because they can't do that. Those orcish societies which have taken to living in cities surrounded by fields have to have done so after humans did because it requires an extra step for them. A field of oats is of no use to the orcs unless they then take those oats to a feed lot and grow some other kind of animal on it and then eat them. While an urban environment can sustain a huntable population of pigeons and rats for a carnivore to eat, the number of such carnivores can't be very large. Indeed, most areas can't contain very many carnivores before they run out of food. So most orcish societies are either based on very small numbers, or larger groups that move around a lot. The advent of stable cities that use agricultural techniques to create large amounts of food for stationary herds is incredibly new, an adaptation of human techniques, and presumably highly controversial. Orcs never had a conflict between Horus and Set (nor the blatant rip-off story of Cain and Abel), because orcs never had an agricultural option. The historical orcish dilemma is between pastoralist nomads who domesticate animals and hunters who don't. They also have a secondary historical dilemma between smaller groups who stay in one place (and either hunt and fish or keep herds) and larger groups that wander around (either taking their herds with them or eating whatever happens to live there).

So you can see why orcish traditionalists might be pretty offended with the new innovation of making a really big city, having orcs grow food crops, taking the food crops back to domesticated animals, and moving on. That's appalling to many orcs who frankly aren't used to doing much work. And orcs are generally a fairly spiritual people because they don't have very much patience.
  • Indian Flavor: The Rakshasa are essentially orcs. They have sharp teeth, they eat meat, they are strong, they hit things and so on. Rakshasa do not all have tiger heads, that's just a thing that some of them do. Little details like having black oily blood and thumbs on the other side of the hand are certainly cool, but can honestly be shifted back into the orcs in a European setting because they are cool.
Alfar
These woods are ours.

There is a persistent need in fantasy stories for having races that are made out of magic. The elves, brownies, nisse, tomte, alfar, goblins, ouphe, dwarfs, kappa, and what have you are in fact all essentially the exact same fucking thing. And thus it is exceedingly unhelpful to attempt to treat them as being any different one from another. The extreme example of course is the Drow and the Derro of D&D – those two words are pronounced the same way because they are the same word for the same creatures from the same folk stories – just transliterated differently because medieval people in Northern Europe can't spell. But once you've determined that you do in fact have a race of people smaller than humans who are mysterious and made of magic – so what? It's a magical world, everything that you can do that other people can't do is by definition magic.

A magical race is magical because they can do a lot of things that they can't teach you how to do. In short, they are magical not because they have great wisdom, but because they don't know how they do things. Elves therefore are at the very least inarticulate, and quite possibly instinctually compelled. This is a dangerous road to go down, because of course if a creature acts too much by instinct and not enough by learned behavior it is in fact not a sapient race and therefore not worth talking to and barely worth talking about. So stepping back from that particular precipice, we can have creatures who template themselves on their environment severely as they grow – like how alligators develop sexually based on temperatures only more so.

This ties nicely into a lot of the elven folklore, where for example nymphs get all kinds of traits from the streams of their homes while oreads get mountainous traits and so on and so forth. An alfar raised in any environment will simply imprint on that environment and get abilities and features related to that area. Even though he can talk, he can't tell you how to do the things that he does any more than a human can tell you how to digest grain. And that makes the alfar magical to the people living in the setting. Every alfar has secrets that literally cannot be shared.

Alfar culture is of course highly fragmented. The snow dwelling Frostlings can certainly interbreed with the Mountain Dwarfs because they are the same species, but they don't really have much to say to one another. They don't look that similar (alfar natural camouflage patterns itself off of surrounding terrain at a young age), and they can't do terribly similar things. And most of all, the only way for a Frostling to teach a Mountain Dwarf any of their really cool tricks, they'd have to start with a baby Mountain Dwarf and just raise them as a Frostling – at which point the child would be a Frostling and not a Mountain Dwarf.
  • Indian Flavor: The Gandharvas and Apsaras fit this role admirably. They have inherent magical powers, they come in many different shapes, and have a distinct locational affinity and varied essences and powers based on that locational aspect. Which means that the exact same description fits either way. You just call them Gandharvas instead of Alfar and move on with your life.
Hormigans
A place for everything, and everything in its place.

Let's talk about Zerg. Or really any hive oriented creatures. Mammals can and do form hives (see the mole rats), and many would say that humanity is at its most effective when it most closely approximates that lifestyle choice. Unlike science fiction B movies there is nothing innately horrifying about being a member of a hive and hive members have no special incentive to force other beings to join their hive, and even if they did that really wouldn't be a subject for cosmic horror anyway. Eusociality is merely the highest level of social organization, and for those living in it the experience is at least as comforting as patriotism or familial piety.

But nonetheless, arthropodal species of sapients hold a weird fascination for us all. They have something approximating bone on the outside, and though they would definitely need to have some sort of internal scaffold as well to achieve human-like size, that still looks both creepy and awesome. Free of the tyranny of upright posture, four limbs, and such a bug person can look like anything. In fact, with the race having a reproductive division of labor and probably a functional (rather than merely social) caste system for its members, there is no reason that every member of the species has to have the same morphology. It's a way to go ape shit with gender and caste multimorphism. Size, shape, and function can all vary wildly within different groups of the same species.

At the minimum, the hormigan species will have four castes: Drones, Workers, Soldiers, Queens. As sapients however, there is no need for there to be an established constant social order within that. It is an absolute fact that only a relatively small number of people need become mothers to spawn a new generation, and that those who will become mothers must be selected and groomed for this role years in advance. Whether these prospective mothers are imprisoned or taught bureaucracy and government during their transformation is a socially defined accident of history that will doubtless vary from hive to hive.

Physically the hormigans resemble humans the least, and so it is important to not just check every box that would make them more alien and harder to identify with. Each individual hormigan is still able to learn and speak and act on their own. The fact that society as a whole has requirements of many members to persist generation to generation does not put any constraints on the individual (unless they have been selected for motherhood, in which case it does). Whether a hormigan is a soldier with blade arms in addition to manipulative digits or a worker with chemical excretory abilities, there is really nothing to necessitate them staying in the hive and whiling away their lives without adventure.

Remember that being an individual hormigan is like being a Eunuch who is related to a government official. From an evolutionary standpoint, there is no amount of personal success that really matters if the hive does not succeed. There is no personal sacrifice which will have any real cost in two generations, and so extreme patriotism is pretty common. It is therefore reasonable to guess that hormigans developed cities and nationhood much faster than other races – indeed these things come very naturally to them.

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Post by ubernoob »

Mmm. Tasty fluff. That is all.
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Post by virgil »

Wouldn't a race highly predisposed towards nationalism lend itself towards considering adventurers to be either insane or treasonous because they left their 'jobs'?
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Post by NoDot »

I noticed a lack of giant robots. (OK, the Hormigans might fit there after refluff.)
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Re: Racial Determinism: TNE

Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Nice essay.
FrankTrollman wrote:At the minimum, the hormigan species will have four castes: Drones, Workers, Soldiers, Queens. As sapients however, there is no need for there to be an established constant social order within that. It is an absolute fact that only a relatively small number of people need become mothers to spawn a new generation, and that those who will become mothers must be selected and groomed for this role years in advance. Whether these prospective mothers are imprisoned or taught bureaucracy and government during their transformation is a socially defined accident of history that will doubtless vary from hive to hive.

Physically the hormigans resemble humans the least, and so it is important to not just check every box that would make them more alien and harder to identify with. Each individual hormigan is still able to learn and speak and act on their own. The fact that society as a whole has requirements of many members to persist generation to generation does not put any constraints on the individual (unless they have been selected for motherhood, in which case it does). Whether a hormigan is a soldier with blade arms in addition to manipulative digits or a worker with chemical excretory abilities, there is really nothing to necessitate them staying in the hive and whiling away their lives without adventure.

Remember that being an individual hormigan is like being a Eunuch who is related to a government official. From an evolutionary standpoint, there is no amount of personal success that really matters if the hive does not succeed. There is no personal sacrifice which will have any real cost in two generations, and so extreme patriotism is pretty common. It is therefore reasonable to guess that hormigans developed cities and nationhood much faster than other races – indeed these things come very naturally to them.
The ideas 'Nothing I do is worthwhile unless it contributes to The Hive' and 'I'm going to adventure to accumulate personal wealth and power' seem, at first, at odds. You've probably thought this over, but it's an issue worth exploring here.

An ormigan 'adventuring' is probably doing it for two reasons:
1) They're on a specific (or abstract) mission to somehow improve the hive. Maybe they're trying to recover some macguffin that will alter weather for miles around their desertifying enclave, or some new magic or technique for all the soldiers to learn. The point is, they're working with a group of adventurers to accomplish the goals of an outside agency. That's not too strange, as there are plenty of other reasons to have such backstory motivations.
2) They're abominations. They reject the eusocial ideals entirely, and instead seek only personal power. This makes their motivations much like that of, say, a lich. They'll be pretty much like any other adventurer, but to their former fellows they are pretty much excommunicated.

As far as social roles for sentient hive species, the drone seems like a role that would naturally evolve into academics. In a species where information is transmitted to the offspring in a non-genetic fashion, drones might be giving larvae a general education while the soldiers are too busy soldiering, the workers are too busy working, and the queens are too busy lording. In a 'disenfranchised queen' hive, the drones might even form a governing body (in lieu of soldiers imposing their will).

The ormigans also don't have to be restricted to insects. They'd work perfectly for modrons (which are inspired by eusocial insects anyway).
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Post by Manxome »

Seems like Orcs would probably have borrowed some concepts from the Hormigans before the Humans ever showed up...unless of course the Hormigans refuse to tolerate Orcs living in their cities or some such.
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Post by Tydanosaurus »

Seems cool. On the face of it, the Alfar are going to be a huge grab-bag of tricks and abilities compared to the other races.
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Re: Racial Determinism: TNE

Post by K »

FrankTrollman wrote:Fantasy Races and Determinism
Black skinned elves are for killing.

There is an absolute limit to the number of race/culture combinations that a game world can handle, which is essentially unmodified whether there are large numbers of races or small numbers. That is, when detailing the continent, you will write up a series of different cultures until you run out of space on the map, run out of word count, run out of allotted time for world building, or are for some other reason required to stop. Whether the new group of shark cultists is an entire species of people who are so small in number that all of them in the world are members of a single tribe that happens to worship a shark, or merely a tribe of shark worshipers from one of the races previously defined is unimportant to how much writing time, word count, physical space, and conceptual space they take up during the world building exercise.

And so it comes back to a question of whether fantasy races are needed at all. If a race of scaled humanoids is not actually needed to put in the village of shark worshipers that are called for, why bother having a race of scaled humanoids at all? There isn't really an answer for that, but on some level people genuinely want there to be people from other species, even if when it comes down to the wire every single species you could name is completely expendable. So it comes that the number of races that are to be included in any world is actually completely arbitrary. Each race unnecessary, yet hopefully still cool enough as a setting piece to justify the believability their very presence damages in the reader.
Frank and I fundamentally disagree on this point. He is of the "five races and many cultures" camp, while I am of the "many races and many cultures" camp.

Personally, I think many races AND many cultures are needed. Fantasy novels outside of Tolkien usually assume that at any point the author might bring a new race or culture into play for a role in the adventure and it has been this need that has shaped RPG games based off of these books.

Games are structured this way simply because this is a shared world. One DM and his players may want Orcs to be major players while another group wants to play "one race and one culture" of the week like Star Trek, or monster of the week like Buffy, Angel, or Supernatural. Still others want to play "many cultures and few races" like Star Gate. Overall, I think all are valid choices and none should be the default.

DnD does all, and I think it is one of the many reasons for it's success. I mean, even though everyone knows the baseline racial traits of the drow, the abilities of one House and other may dramatically differ because they are assumed to be different cultures in a greater culture. By the same token, no one assumes that any two clan of dwarves are the same, or that one city of humans is the same as another on the other side of the continent.

DnD's only real flaw is that it skips over any matters of biology. Since any particular monster entry may have a total racial population equaling tens of individuals, problems of what they eat and how they breed actually make it hard to suspend disbelief.

My proposal is that "culture" + "magic" = "new race".

For example, worshippers of Merrshaulk might eventually gain snake traits that breed freely simply because that is what the magic of Merrshaulk does. Some cultures become yuan-ti and some become ophidians and that's what happens when you mess with too much Merrshaulkan snake magic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarrukh

By the same token, some people mess with less magic or have a more fragmented culture and they don't change drastically. Dwarves have a strong culture and a little magic, so they are shortish humans.

By sticking with this as a design goal like this, you can insert races with their own unique flavor as needed without having to make every member of a snake race an NPC with levels of "cultist of Merrshaulk" if you need a snake race for an underground city you just came up with after you concepted out the campaign. Considering that you'll waste design time coming up with unique cultural elements anyway, a few biological ones are not a problem.

At the end of the day, fantasy gaming more resembles the bar in Tatooine and not Tolkien's critique on European politics, and people like it that way.[/url]
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Post by rapa-nui »

"Mammals can and do form hives (see the mole rats)"

I have to chime in, since I currently work on their cells. Naked mole rats are some of the most fascinating creatures on earth. They are the only eusocial mammal, don't feel certain kinds of pain, and (most importantly to me), age very slowly and apparently don't get cancer (at least it hasn't been observed in a lab population of over 800 individuals). For a small rodent the size of a mouse, this is rather remarkable: consider that lab mice live about 2 years compared to the NMR's 30.

Also, a quick note about Hormigans: most eusocial colonies (including bees and ants) have a certain baseline level of cheaters (workers that go on to lay eggs), so it is not unthinkable for there to be a Roguish and unpatriotic Hormigan.
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Re: Racial Determinism: TNE

Post by Tydanosaurus »

K wrote:DnD does all, and I think it is one of the many reasons for it's success. I mean, even though everyone knows the baseline racial traits of the drow, the abilities of one House and other may dramatically differ because they are assumed to be different cultures in a greater culture.
If one of your races is "Things that are magical," as Frank describes them, don't you have all of that stuff that you're talking about? What's the fundamental difference between having [Drow, High Elves, Gray Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, Derro, and Halflings, among other things], and having [Aeliths, a race of tribal variomorphs who essentially choose among looking like Drow, High Elves, Gray Elves, etc.]?
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Post by JonSetanta »

Ah. This is the kind of thread I've been waiting for.
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Re: Racial Determinism: TNE

Post by K »

Tydanosaurus wrote:
K wrote:DnD does all, and I think it is one of the many reasons for it's success. I mean, even though everyone knows the baseline racial traits of the drow, the abilities of one House and other may dramatically differ because they are assumed to be different cultures in a greater culture.
If one of your races is "Things that are magical," as Frank describes them, don't you have all of that stuff that you're talking about? What's the fundamental difference between having [Drow, High Elves, Gray Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, Derro, and Halflings, among other things], and having [Aeliths, a race of tribal variomorphs who essentially choose among looking like Drow, High Elves, Gray Elves, etc.]?
Variomorphs don't cut down on design time and they cheat people out of the races feeling unique. No benefits and a loss means it's an overall bad idea.

I mean, if you stat out dwarves you need to give them unique abilities that are balanced against the ones you give elves. Even if you say "these abilities are dwarven culture", you still spend the same amount of time designing and balancing them.

Feeling unique is one of the main reasons that people want different races. If elves start learning dwarf powers, then dwarf players start saying "well hell, why am I even a dwarf? I'll just be a human and take dwarf powers."

Cultures can and will blur. I don't even care if the people on the edge of the Fire Nation and the Earth Nation have a variety of shared cultural values, or if humans who trade with dwarves both enjoy mushroom beer and stout woman. I do care if someone is like "we are a forest cave people who have the traits from dwarves I like and traits from elves I like ."

My vision of a character is this (names will change):
-Combat: His combat abilities.

-Backgrounds: The things he can do to alter the setting or story, and are related to his cultural backstory.

-Embellishments: minor bonuses or plot hooks that are racial abilities, skills, things you get from adventures.

So an elf who is a druid uses druid combat stuff, and then might either delve into Elven Magic(calls elven spirits) or Druid Circle magic(animal spirits) or someone more character specific like Royalty(raise armies), and things like "I'm an elf and my long life means that it's like I have a library with me at all times" ranks up there with other Embellishments like "I'm a blacksmith" or "the Nymphs of the Grey Forest kissed me and now I get the same bonuses to Diplomacy as a well dressed person."
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Re: Racial Determinism: TNE

Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Tydanosaurus wrote:
K wrote:DnD does all, and I think it is one of the many reasons for it's success. I mean, even though everyone knows the baseline racial traits of the drow, the abilities of one House and other may dramatically differ because they are assumed to be different cultures in a greater culture.
If one of your races is "Things that are magical," as Frank describes them, don't you have all of that stuff that you're talking about? What's the fundamental difference between having [Drow, High Elves, Gray Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, Derro, and Halflings, among other things], and having [Aeliths, a race of tribal variomorphs who essentially choose among looking like Drow, High Elves, Gray Elves, etc.]?
I guess it comes down to the mechanical distinction. There really is no difference between 'the forehead alien of the week' and 'the nature spirits native to the volcano whose lava tube 'dungeon' you're exploring'.

If you do come up with a small number of sentient species and then permute them by culture, the main benefit is that some things always stay the same, and hopefully the kind of 'race bloat' that creates saughin, locathah, merfolk, and kuo toa won't be present. Adding in things like fey or remade that can look very different from each other can help to keep the 'tatooine bar' effect.

On the other hand, if you're just making things up for your campaign then 500 kinds of elves and 4 kinds of fish people won't be a problem anyway, and if it's just as easy to come up with a new race there's no reason not to. As long as continuity isn't too fucked up.

[Edit] That said, I'm running an adventure arc where the only player races are 'human' and 'kuo toa', and the only 'monster races' encountered so far are serpent people and an aranea. That's 5 by D&D reckoning (including kuo-toa/human hybrid), and 3 by Frank's reckoning (because the fish and humans can interbreed to have viable offspring).
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Post by Username17 »

RN wrote:Naked mole rats are some of the most fascinating creatures on earth. They are the only eusocial mammal
Well, there is also the Damaraland Mole Rat, which is a different (though highly similar) animal. But yeah, I'll agree that they are amazing creatures. Mole rats divide up such duties as digesting food - which is kind of much I think. Hormigans can benefit from having a more inherently open society.
Catharz wrote:The ideas 'Nothing I do is worthwhile unless it contributes to The Hive' and 'I'm going to adventure to accumulate personal wealth and power' seem, at first, at odds. You've probably thought this over, but it's an issue worth exploring here.
Indeed. The hive benefits from a lot of things that are at first odd sounding. Mothers need to be kept safe in order to make each year's batch of children, but soldiers and workers are required to do stuff only collectively. Any specific soldier means literally nothing to the hive. It is only the contribution of "all of the soldiers" that make any real impact. And honestly, more soldiers are born than are required. By a substantial margin, in case the number of soldiers needed increase or an unforeseen event kills off a portion of the soldiers currently on hand.

And so when it comes to the less well defined needs of the hive: information from outside, exploration, identification and neutralization of external threats, diplomacy, etc. there are indeed a number of members of various castes who are otherwise extraneous and are totally available. The end result of this is that hives genuinely benefit from sponsoring a certain number of adventurers every year to go adventure.

This is not achieved in the way that humans or orcs do, where there is simply a random restlessness amount in each member of the species and some of them just wander off; but the end result is pretty similar. A certain number of Hormigans leave the hive every so often to go off adventuring. And some of them return to the hive with stories at some point; and some of them just keep wandering for their whole lives going farther and farther afield in an attempt to find the one really big score that would make it all worthwhile for the hive. But of course it's almost always worth the cost to the hive, because the hive needs to get rid of extra labor at a variable but continuous rate anyway.
K wrote:Frank and I fundamentally disagree on this point.
Yes we do. A setting doesn't have anything in it unless it has things that aren't in it. A perpetual species creep is not only retarded, it makes knowledge of the world essentially impossible.

It's one thing to find a secret cult of parrot warriors hidden beneath the city; but it's something else that is entirely retarded to find an entire race of goblin-like people who happen to live secretly under the city and train parrot warriors. It strains credibility, and more importantly it does not enhance the setting in any way.
Tydanosaurus wrote:What's the fundamental difference between having [Drow, High Elves, Gray Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, Derro, and Halflings, among other things], and having [Aeliths, a race of tribal variomorphs who essentially choose among looking like Drow, High Elves, Gray Elves, etc.]?
The only difference is that one allows a consistent and persistent world and the other does not. There is an advantage to going to a new valley and discover a group of snow goblins who have snow powers and snow culture and ice spears and shit; but there is no advantage to having those snow goblins being genetically incompatible with the swamp goblins you faced earlier.

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Post by Manxome »

I can see some advantages to a setting where the GM can make up weird creatures the players have never seen before as necessary to the plot, so having some feature of the setting that can justify this could be handy. But I don't see why they would need to breed true, and I definitely don't see why you'd want to feedback all of those creations into canon (or anticipate them, for that matter). And I can also see lots of advantages to having most of the relevant world filled with a number of different creatures that most players can actually be expected to learn about and keep track of.

Is there anything wrong with saying that certain classes of magic produce long-term non-genetic changes to creatures? So the GM can pull out some reclusive cult whose worshippers take on aspects of the marmoset or an artifact that slowly turns weasels in close proximity into the monster-of-the-week, and that neither strains the credibility of the story nor threatens a large-scale change to the setting's biosphere?
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Post by K »

FrankTrollman wrote:
K wrote:Frank and I fundamentally disagree on this point.
Yes we do. A setting doesn't have anything in it unless it has things that aren't in it. A perpetual species creep is not only retarded, it makes knowledge of the world essentially impossible.

It's one thing to find a secret cult of parrot warriors hidden beneath the city; but it's something else that is entirely retarded to find an entire race of goblin-like people who happen to live secretly under the city and train parrot warriors. It strains credibility, and more importantly it does not enhance the setting in any way.
In a setting like DnD where players are expected to traverse not just one planet, but several planets and who knows how many planes of existence.... well, there is more than enough room for many races. The "DnD setting" works because it is infinitely replayable as long as you are willing to create new settings (and even cross-pollinate settings with things from one to the other). It's fine to say "In Cormyr there are no hyper-intelligent mushroom people", but it is terrible for your game if you say "there are no hyper-intelligent mushroom people anywhere."

Sure, there should be major races in certain lands, but "monster of the week" syndrome is a fact of life. Players get bored of monsters they have beaten and races they know and they want to fight new and more interesting monsters and meet and mate with more and different exotic alien princesses. Wonder at encountering the strange and exotic is a large part of DnD and fantasy literature.

Also, knowledge of the world is not a beneficial thing. Mastery of the game that comes from knowing how to use your own abilities is one thing, but the game is actually less fun if you've read the Monster Manual and can say "Ok, it's time to use the holy bludgeoning weapons." It's not even tactically interesting since it only relies on only your willingness to memorize things.

And finally, it you are going to go to all the effort to come up with unique abilities for some encounters, then there is no reason to not make a new race as well. It's the same amount of work, involves the same amount of surprise for the PCs, and in my mind it makes more sense. I think it's just lazy design to say "well, they have mastered Parrot Jutsu and so have parrot beaks" when you can just say "holy crap, parrot people!" On one hand it means that people will want to pick and choose things so their'll learn some Dragon Jutsu and Parrot Jutsu and Water Jutsu have scales and a parrot nose and be made of water, and on the other hand it means that you can't have a story about a parrot-man wizard because he spent all his choosable abilities being a parrot-man.

If 3e taught us anything, it taught us that letting people make their own settings and monsters or just adding to yours will let you win at the RPG industry. I'm not looking for personal fame here, so I don't mind if someone tacks on their awesome setting to mine.
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Post by Crissa »

That's sorta what my racial feat system did, K.

Take a race feat and boom, you get some bonus that makes you different without really leaving your species.

Bipedals are one species, and winged or hooved are others.

There's really not much call to have many races - like Frank said, once race might just 'look different' for a different area.

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Post by JonSetanta »

Hm. After a bit of debate for Frank's "few races" vs. K's "many races" I decide to give my vote towards K's plan.

Race/class combination is quintessential for durable settings. Anad by quintessential, I mean that without the ability to shuffle the combination of species and role in life, one has a stale environment as entrenched in pomp and birthright as the Dune setting. The characters are born to their clan and role; they might be able to make a name for themselves as individuals, but an Atreides and Harkonnen will never be able to become members of the other side. It's just how the setting goes.
However, I don't want to play Dune, I want to play a fantasy RPG.

Granted, there are players that enjoy a stereotypical "It's an orc! Kill it before it rapes and pillages." kind of setting but in my experience they are few in number these days.
Probably for the better.

In an abstract sense one should be able to make 2 decks of cards, shuffle each, and draw one from each for their race and culture.
Culture is more influenced by environment, time, and relation to other cultures than the inherent physical differences of members within; it's a non-physical network in action and product of minds, as opposed to the mix of courtship and genes that determines species success.
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Post by Tydanosaurus »

I think what I'm getting at is this is laregly a minor matter of semantics. Something like .0015% of all the gamers of the world are going to care whether Goblins and Dwarves can have children. The other 99.985% aren't going to care whether the Goblins in the Monster Manual are genetically distinct from Dwarves or not. Very rarely will it actually make a difference to the typical campaign or adventure. They're just going to care that Dwarves have [insert stats and characteristics], and Goblins have [insert stats and characteristics].

To those that do care, which framework is going to be more rewarding? One where each separate enclave of Derro has to worry about inbreeding, or one where you can just say "Screw it, 10 Drow live here?" I gotta tell you, I've always found it incredibly hard to believe that all of those underdark races manage to survive down there. Frank's system at least gives you a "scientific" way of handwaving a lot of the ecology away. Should you care to.

Also, you could split the difference and have some "monstrous" races.
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Post by Username17 »

I think it's time that we learnt that D&D is now and always has been a weak setting and that the problems associated with Gygaxian tomfoolery and Andy Collins rules halfassedry is in fact directly descendant from that fact. D&D has shitty rules interactions and continuously unsatisfactory world building because of the Laissez-faire hooliganry of its assumed setting.

Everything that is wrong with settings like Krynn and Eberon is directly comparable with the things which are wrong with RIFTS, and for the same reason. If you lack the discipline to not put something in your setting that seems like it might be cool, then nothing in your setting is cool!

In order to have anything stand out and be impressive, or even be interesting, there must be a baseline. Heck, there must be limits. If you don't have a specific upward edge of nine thousand in your world, no one will even know that they're supposed to care if someone goes over that. If you keep throwing shit into the stew, the entire stew will taste like actual shit. People will be Atlanteans, and then True Atlanteans, and then those giant bugs from RIFTS, and then gods, and then bigger fucking gods. And at the end of the day, nothing that anyone did with "mere" Atlanteans will mean jack fucking squat.

---

Yes, you can make a world with mushroom monsters in it. That stuff is fine. But it has to be a world that has mushroom monsters in it. You can't just write mushroom monsters into a world that doesn't have any mushroom monsters in it, because that world doesn't have any mushroom monsters in it!

Your steampunk Victorian-esque game of werewolf hunting does not take place in the same world as one in which people live a Tattoine Bar existence scrabbling for water in a metal-free desert. These are different settings, and if you don't segregate your settings one from another you don't have a single super awesome setting, you just don't have any settings at all.

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Post by Tydanosaurus »

FrankTrollman wrote:I think it's time that we learnt that D&D is now and always has been a weak setting and that the problems associated with Gygaxian tomfoolery and Andy Collins rules halfassedry is in fact directly descendant from that fact. D&D has shitty rules interactions and continuously unsatisfactory world building because of the Laissez-faire hooliganry of its assumed setting.
Oh, yeah. One of the reasons D&D was borken was because it could never figure out whether it was a setting, or a set of rules, or framework for houserules that would allow you to play a game.

So you end up with Greyhawk, a base setting of medium-level asskickingness. Then you get monsters for everything from Ravenloft, where your powers ideally mean squat, to Planescape, where you literally Rock the World. Then no framework's provided to make it fit, so some poor fool has a pack of Dragons living outside of Mechacity in the Desert of Eternal Death. And everything's supposed to fit.

Still, I think you could design a game with a bunch of mismatched creatures, if you also put in some basic frame for using them.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

There's the Dark Sun solution and the Planescape solution. The Planescape solution makes for more of an episodic SciFi feel, while the Dark Sun solution leads to a world that feels more real.
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Post by K »

FrankTrollman wrote:I think it's time that we learnt that D&D is now and always has been a weak setting and that the problems associated with Gygaxian tomfoolery and Andy Collins rules halfassedry is in fact directly descendant from that fact. D&D has shitty rules interactions and continuously unsatisfactory world building because of the Laissez-faire hooliganry of its assumed setting.

Everything that is wrong with settings like Krynn and Eberon is directly comparable with the things which are wrong with RIFTS, and for the same reason. If you lack the discipline to not put something in your setting that seems like it might be cool, then nothing in your setting is cool!

In order to have anything stand out and be impressive, or even be interesting, there must be a baseline. Heck, there must be limits. If you don't have a specific upward edge of nine thousand in your world, no one will even know that they're supposed to care if someone goes over that. If you keep throwing shit into the stew, the entire stew will taste like actual shit. People will be Atlanteans, and then True Atlanteans, and then those giant bugs from RIFTS, and then gods, and then bigger fucking gods. And at the end of the day, nothing that anyone did with "mere" Atlanteans will mean jack fucking squat.
You seem mixed up. Power level has nothing to do with variety of races and monsters.

The reason DnD and settings like Rifts went off the beaten track was because they never said "you are X level, and you should be able to things off of list A and B, but not C, D, E and the others." Rifts is notorious for not being able to mix even starting characters in the basic book, but that's just bad level design and not bad flavor or concepting.

The settings themselves were fine. It really doesn't hurt your game at all if Samurai from Legend of the Five Rings are in a party with Dark Sun Psionicists and Krynnish steampunk gnomes as long as they have the same overall power at the same levels.

DnD rose to power on the simple fact that most DMs write their own settings on the bones of established settings and crib things they like from the others. The game itself has only one goal: facilitate this process.

Rifts and DnD and even Gurps got a lot of love because you really could do whatever you wanted. Sure, Rifts was broken on first principles and DnD had is actually three games masquerading as one, but people do play them because of their ability to work with many settings.

People can and will insert things as they please. You seriously can have a clockwork adventure without ruining your Rogue-based city campaign. Individual DMs will decide if clockwork magic is a big deal in their game or it's a fringe magic known by two guys and a gnome, so banning clockwork magic is hopelessly contrictive without actually bringing anything positive to the table.

By the same token, there is no reason why statting up minor races means that they have to play a destructive role in the overall flavor in your campaign. Black-skinned elves that live in cloud cities and wear silver clothes can exist in a setting with evil Lolthian drow and it is the DM's choice to either not have adventures with them or make them a major part of his advenbtures.
FrankTrollman wrote: Yes, you can make a world with mushroom monsters in it. That stuff is fine. But it has to be a world that has mushroom monsters in it. You can't just write mushroom monsters into a world that doesn't have any mushroom monsters in it, because that world doesn't have any mushroom monsters in it!

Your steampunk Victorian-esque game of werewolf hunting does not take place in the same world as one in which people live a Tattoine Bar existence scrabbling for water in a metal-free desert. These are different settings, and if you don't segregate your settings one from another you don't have a single super awesome setting, you just don't have any settings at all.
I think you have to completely abandon the idea that this is your setting.
It's not. An RPG setting is designed to be played by many players from all over the world. It has to be able to accept many different possible ways to play. It is not your novel where you get to choose what is in the setting or not. That choice is taken by the players and the DM, and since they will simply alter your setting anyway, then why even fight this urge by making a system that makes this hard? You basically just assure that people won't play with your rules and won't play with your setting.

That being said, there is no reason why the people in the Burning Wastes can't be playing survivalist horror like Dark Sun and people a thousand miles away aren't playing Victorianesque steampunk. Forgotten Realms lives by this principle and it is still the most popular DnD setting.

As long as you decide at the beginning what a character of X level should do, then it doesn't matter if Sand Warriors do something like basic combat damage with "sand magic" and Mecha-artificers do it with "constructo-sorcery". Heck, it doesn't even matter if the Sand Warrior comes to the big city and raises a nomad army from the city's homeless and the Mecha-Artificer comes to the desert and builds golems out of sandstone instead of steel.

At the end of the day, the execution of those stories by the DM will determine whether the setting and story are believable. Saying "X is not in my setting" is just asking people to not use your setting, and as a result you lose their contribution to the shared reality of that setting as well as their original ideas.

I mean, look at the yuan-ti link I provided above. The material in that link is the product of dozens of writers, and it wouldn't have happened if you said "no snake men in my setting."
Last edited by K on Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by rapa-nui »

I agree with Frank about setting standards about what can and can't happen within the scope of the rules. The debate seems to be whether the number of sapient species present in a campaign world changes things.

Well, one option is to simply ignore the problem and let people figure it out however they want at the game table. In TNE we offer the GM a set of toolboxes for race creation and balance:

1. Non-Magical Humanoids
2. Magical Humanoids
3. Hive Races
4. Unique Beings as Player Characters (like if one guy at the table seriously wants to play the only Awakened Badger in the entire world, there could be rules for that).

That's pretty much it. We can also add a little info box like

Things To Consider When Designing Your World and It's Races
blhablhablah ecology blahblahblhablha ecosystem support of major predators blahblahblahblah genetic admixture blahblhablhan
To the scientist there is the joy in pursuing truth which nearly counteracts the depressing revelations of truth. ~HP Lovecraft
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Post by Username17 »

K wrote:The settings themselves were fine. It really doesn't hurt your game at all if Samurai from Legend of the Five Rings are in a party with Dark Sun Psionicists and Krynnish steampunk gnomes.
YES IT DOES!

Holy shit, can you even hear yourself talk here? If you have a party that has an L5R samurai, a Dark Sun Psychic, and a Krynnish Tinker, you do not have a game. That's not a cooperative storytelling game of fantasy adventure, that's a TFOS team. Anything too out-there and absurdist to make it onto a Saturday morning cartoon show is just indescribably lame.

If you can't explain what the fucking hell is going on to an eight year old, your setting is too damn complicated. And if it has a samurai, a canibalistic halfling psionic desert nomad, and an Edwardian Mormon gadgeteer, it's never going to pass the sniff test.

A setting that lacks the basic discipline to determine what it doesn't have in it doesn't have anything in it. Stuff just happens in formless void and nothing matters.

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