Middle-Earth: The RPG

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Middle-Earth: The RPG

Post by Talisman »

Note: This thread is about Tolkien's world of Middle-Earth. If you don't care for LotR, that's fine, but please don't post about how much you hate it. Constructive criticism about any rules is welcome, but keep the LotR-bashing out of here.

So, we want to recreate Tolkien's world in RPG form. Let me start out by saying I do not want to recreate LotR. Middle-Earth at the time of the War of the Ring is a terrible place to run a campaign unless you throw out the whole of the story, and then...why are we doing this exactly?

There are, fortunately, two vast stretches of time that are ripe with adventuring possibility: the First Age (starting with the Exile of the Noldor) and the Second Age.

The First Age: Mythic Heroes
The heroes of the first age were larger-than-life. They accomplished truly epic deeds: Fingolfin duels with a god; Beren stole a jewel from a god, got his hand bitten off and didn't slow down, broke into a magically warded forest and won the most beautiful Elf-maiden of all time as his bride, and came back from the dead. The Eldar were young and vigorous, Balrogs and other Maiar bestrode the land, and wild, crazy things were accomplished. This is very much a "high fantasy" setting, where the heroes of the day perform superhuman feats of prowess - things that are beyond the wildest stretches of real human possibility.

The Second Age: Big Damn Heroes
The second age began with the final defeat of Morgoth and the heroes and villains of the era are correspondingly lessened. Sauron, Morgoth's lieutenant, picks up the Sceptre of Evilness, but he isn't the world-cracking deity Morgoth was: at one point he is defeated and captured by Men. Elendil the Tall is perhaps the greatest mortal hero alive, but he doesn't hold a candle to the likes of Turin or Hurin or Tuor. The Valar do not leave Valinor, and there are far fewer Maiar about. Most of the Eldar lords are either dead or returned to Valinor. The deeds of the day are mighty and impressive, but closer to the "realistic." Elendil and Gil-galad besiege Barad-Dur for seven years before they can force Sauron to come out and fight, and then he kills them both. Elendil survives the wreck of Numenor, but fails to save it. The scope is smaller, the deeds are lesser.

For reference, here is Frank's game design flowsheet, which I will be drawing from.
Step 1: Name the Party
It's heroic fantasy, and the Noldor are at near-constant war with Morgoth in the First Age. I'll start with "band" (short for "warband") and go from there.

Step 2: Write Up a Six-Person Party.
Okay, drawing from my knowledge of Tolkienian lore, we have:
  • The Captain. He kills things with his sword; some use spears or axes. He has a lot of tricks and options with a single weapon. He's also charismatic and can do a good job as the party face. (Fingolfin, Tuor, Earendil, Theoden)
  • The Warrior. He kills things with his sword, spear or axe. He's more broadly skilled than the Captain, but not as good a faceman. He's a decent fill-the-gap character, as he can be decent at a lot of things. Fairly sneaky. (Aragorn, Gimli, Turin)
  • The Scout. He's sneaky and he kills things with a bow, or from ambush. Knows a lot about the wilderness and the Dark Things that dwell therein. (Beleg, Legolas)
  • The Loremaster. He's the information guy, and can use magical effects (although not as flashy as a D&D wizard). He knows stuff and uses this knowledge to help his buddies fight better. (Gandalf, Melian, Galadriel)
  • The Craftmaster. He makes stuff. He can craft awesome equipment given time and materials. He's also good in combat and knows a little magic. (Telchar, Celebrimbor, Feanor)
  • The Singer. He sings magic songs and can communicate with trees and stuff. He can also use magic and can make stuff, though not as well as the Craftmaster. (Maglor, Daeron, Luthien)
Step 3: Write Up a Three-Person Party

Our first band, taking every other archetype, consists of the Captain, the Scout, and the Craftmaster. This party has social skills (Captain) and all three members can hang in combat. The Scout can sneak and knows stuff; the Craftmaster knows other stuff and can use some magic.

Overall, this party does well in combat but is somewhat hampered in information-gathering and magic.

-

Our second party consists of a Warrior, Loremaster and Singer. The party is combat-light - only the Warrior is a dedicated weaponsmaster - but magic-heavy, as both the Loremaster and the Singer can throw spells around. The Singer is the faceman of this group, both Singer and Loremaster can find stuff out, and the Warrior is sneaky and broadly skilled.

This band is magically-potent and flexible - between the two spellcasters and the Warrior's skills, they can adjust to handle a lot. They are weaker in straight-up melee than the other party, but not cripplingly so.


Step 4: Outline an Adventure

Let's start by outlining some basic adventure seeds. A First Age party can expect to:
  • Lead raids against small forces of Orcs, probably with Werewolf, Vampire, or even Balrog leaders - the Scout shines here, as do the Warrior and Captain once the big battle starts. The Craftmaster can give his buddies an edge by crafting anti-big-boss gear. The Loremaster and the Singer are less useful here.
  • Explore lost ruins in search of ancient treasures or knowledge - The Scout and Loremaster rule here; the Warrior is also in his element. The Captain is useful if there's a fight - and there always is. The Craftmaster and Singer may be less useful depending on the specifics.
  • Negotiate between Elves, Dwarves and Men in various combinations - The Singer and Captain are tops at negotiations. The Loremaster will be useful with his knowledge of various cultures, and the Warrior and Scout come in handy for any skulduggery. The Craftmaster...not so much.
  • Defend a position against endless waves of Orcs - The Captain and Warrior rule. The Craftmaster is in his element, with a solid position and a known foe; he has the stability to make gear and knows the enemy. The Singer can bolster his friends' spirits, and the Scout gathers information and leads assassination raids against enemy leaders. The Loremaster appears to be the least useful.
  • Take out a powerful enemy leader, such as a Balrog, Dragon, or other Maia - The Captain is at the top of his game when in melee against a single potent foe. The Loremaster is useful for discerning this speific foe's weaknesses, and the Warrior and Craftmaster can offer solid support. The Scout and Singer are less useful.

    So for our sample adventure, let's assume the band's nemesis is Gorfaroth, Werewolf Lord, and his horde of Orcs. The band hears legends of a werewolf-slaying blade lost in an ancient ruin, so they research the legends and find them The ruin is in the lands of a hostile tribe of Silvan Elves, forcing the band to either negotiate with the unhelpful Elves or sneak everybody through - or possibly the Singer could put all the Elves to sleep or something equally odd. One in the ruins, they evade the ancient traps and guardians and weather assaults by werewolves - Gorfaroth has caught up with them! Finding the blade, they must hurry back to the Silvans' camp to fight Gorfaroth and his guard before the werewolves murder all the Elves.

    Looks like everyone has something to do, although the Singer and the Craftmaster may lag a bit. We'd better be sure they have enough options to feel useful - the Craftmaster can either craft small magic trinkets very fast, or perhaps be a second-tier soldier - even stronger when decked out in custom-crafted gear. The Singer needs to be throwing magical songs around; we can't let him fall into the Diplomancer trap. We'll think of him more as a singing sorcerer and less as a bard.

    Step 6: Write a Campaign Arc

    Let's assume our setting is the First Age, during the endless war against Morgoth. Let's also screw with official history and make Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, the BBEG. Our campaign could look like:
    • Band meets when their community is overrun by Orcs. They must protect the survivors and kill as many Orcs as they can.
    • Finding a new settlement, they negotiate with the locals and hopefully force an alliance. Quests to prove their worth should be expected.
    • As Gothmog consolidates his position, the band looks for ways to hurt him. Raiding parties are fun, as are quests for anti-Balrog gear; also, the Craftmaster can spend some time making just what he needs.
    • Now better armed, the band begins making raids to take out Gothmog's lieutenants. This also distracts attention from their home base.
    • It's revenge time! The band puts together an army from their old community and their new allies and marches North, crushing all in their path. They besiege Gothmog's fortress and slaughter his minions.
    • Finally, the band slips into the Balrog's lair and takes down his bodyguard. The final battle against Gothmog is suitably epic and mythic, and as it ends the band finds themselves the Lords and Ladies of the reclaimed city.
    More later. Feel free to comment on the above.
Last edited by Talisman on Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Honestly The Burning Wheel does Tolkien really well. I seriously recommend checking that out before doing any actual work on this subject.

Also, here's a link to an alternate-history Fourth Age scenario I postulated and think has some real possibilities for adventure, while remaining accessible to people who aren't into the Silmarillion. GarethC's response (about 2/3 down) is particularly useful.
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Post by Elennsar »

I would say the Third Age is possible, but it would be less ideal.

As for the character types, a couple comments:

The gap between "Swordmaster" and "Warrior" does not seem very clear, and having one be the party face and the other not does not seem clearly supported by the source material.

Still, I think we have all the bases covered. A three person party can probably get away with two warriors and a Swordmaster, or a warrior, swordmaster, and loremaster.

Which seems pretty sound, though making the "adventurers" depend on loremasters in the group seems a bit off.

Angel: Please explain for those of us (::waves a hand:: ) not familiar with the system how and why it is a good fit...nothing I've heard (which is not enough anyway) really makes me feel confident in it, but that's more "please tell me more" and less "I feel this is a bad idea".
Last edited by Elennsar on Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Talisman »

Elennsar wrote:The gap between "Swordmaster" and "Warrior" does not seem very clear, and having one be the party face and the other not does not seem clearly supported by the source material.
Yeah, I could have been clearer.

Basically the Swordsman is the leader-of-men (or elves). He's the guy in the shining armor who duels with the enemy captain; who inspires men to follow him into the gates of Hell and who gets in to see the King through sheer force of personality. In D&D terms, he's the paladin or (4e) the warlord.

In the Sil: Fingolfin, Turgon, Glorfindel, and perhaps Maedhros would be Swordsmen.

The Warrior is the skillsy, sneaky warrior. He may be just as good with a blade as the Swordsman, but for whatever reason he's not as "shiney." He compensates by being better at various other things. In D&D terms, he's the rogue or rogue/fighter.

In the Sil: Turin, Beren, various sons of Feanor, and various other Eldar who don't get to be kings, would be Warriors.
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Post by Elennsar »

Perhaps we could call him the Captain, then.

For some reason that seems like a good term, but maybe that's just me.
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Post by Cynic »

I made the same double-take as Elenssar with swordmaster & warrior. Partially, it's the example fluff of Strider being a warrior. But we are dealing with the first two ages and Glorifindel obviously kicks Strider's patootie.


If the third age is contemplated, we need something completely different from the warband. Most of that knowledge is long lost.
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Post by Talisman »

Elennsar wrote:Perhaps we could call him the Captain, then.

For some reason that seems like a good term, but maybe that's just me.
I originally called him that. I then second-, third- and fourth-guessed myself.

"Captain" and "Swordsman" it is, then.
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Post by Elennsar »

Probably. I was mentioning more as "we can do the Third Age", rather than saying it is similar.

The three ages are very different.

So, which Age do we want to do? Could we do all three, with adjustments stated as "if doing this in the Third Age, then ____" and the same for the Second or First (depending on which is the baseling we write around)?
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Post by zeruslord »

The First and Second ages could both be run under the same system with different level or point maximums and probably starting points, but the Third Age is running at so much lower a level that it can't be in the same system without getting level gaps at least as bad as D&D. Balrogs are fairly minor in the first age, at least to the big heroes, they are dangerous, but beatable, in the second, and are the ultimate monster in the third. It'll give us the same level issues as D&D without actually getting the benefits of letting characters increase in power.
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Post by Elennsar »

That's not necessarily a bad thing. Balrogs are also much rarer in the Third Age than the First or Second.

At no damn point are Heroes of the First Age competing against Third Age threats or threats of the First Age against Heroes of the Third Age (the Balrog is specifically meant to be a no win for mortals in the Third Age, this would be true whether we set up a different system for it or not).

So I don't see what the problem is.

Also, I'm not sure I'd say "minor" for First Age. Sure, they're beatable, but they're at the very limits of what the mightiest heroes can do.

You still are running into the orcs and trolls vastly more often in all three ages, and the difference between how well Aragorn fares against an orc and how well Beleg does is not all that significant, even if Beleg could beat Aragorn with both arms tied behind his back.

More important question: Do we want hard classes for this, or not? It is pretty clear whether someone is a Captain or Warrior (I still prefer that term) or Scout or Loremaster or Craftmaster or Singer...though a few heroes seem to have skills from multiple areas, they tend to be the ones built on "more points than you" as well.
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Post by zeruslord »

It's been a while since I've read the Silmarillion, but I seem to remember some elven lords takingon multiple balrogs at once and winning.
Elennsar wrote:At no damn point are Heroes of the First Age competing against Third Age threats or threats of the First Age against Heroes of the Third Age
My point exactly. I'd prefer to keep dice pools and bonuses manageable and mildly divergent as characters gain levels, and First Age major heroes are so far off the RNG from Third Age named, but not major, heroes that it's not even funny.
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Post by Elennsar »

Same here, other than the fact our memories differ. I'll get back to you.

Either way, Balrogs are Serious Business.

But as for the dice pools and bonuses: The point is, First Age heroes shouldn't be on the same RNG from Third Age heroes.

And I really don't think levels suit ME at all...Beleg was not born weak and grew through levels.
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Post by Talisman »

I'm inclined away from levels. It could be done, but it would be clunky and awkward.

As for Balrogs, only three were ever killed on-screen (others died in the War of Wrath, but that was against the united, unleashed power of all the Valar). Each balrog took his slayer with him. One killed Ecthelion, Lord of the Fountain; one killed Glorfindel, Captain of the Golden Flower; one killed Gandalf.

Other First Age heroes defeated Balrogs, in the sense that they made the Balrogs flee, but no one killed a Balrog and lived to tell the tale. Balrogs were just below Morgoth and Sauron in terms of power and badassery. I'd peg a Balrog at the upper limit - or even slightly beyond it - of First Age PC power. Sauron is more powerful on his own than any one PC, and Morgoth is a frikking god.

And I could easily change Swordsman back to Warrior...I don't feel strongly either way.
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Post by Elennsar »

It doesn't really matter other than making it clear that its "Sword or axe or even spear". The fact most such are using swords is not something that determines anything.

Here's a question.

What exactly are we doing for alignment/morality?

Not all of the people opposed to the Shadow are anything resembling ethical (Feanor, I'm looking at you, you asshole). I'm not sure if that's necessary to represent or if we just need to note who follows the Shadow and who doesn't.
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Post by Talisman »

Well, for starters we kill D&D's alignment system with fire and pointy sticks.

I am not opposed to "alignment" systems that describe a character, but I dislike those that dictate a character's actions.

I must ponder. Off the top of my head I'd say none...First Age characters in particular are too complex to be bound by a simple alignment. What alignment was Turin, f'rinstance? I guarantee you'll get 5 different answers out of 4 different people.

Edit: Turin, not "Turn."
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Post by Elennsar »

Quite. I wouldn't mind having some sort of way of measuring someone being Heroic with a capital H and if that mattered it'd be an aspect or the like, but beyond that, it'd be an impossible hassle.

I don't mind alignments dictating actions, but they damn better be only doing so in ways that work like this "Okay, sure, you could kill the king...but you wouldn't be ____ if you did that. Still want to do it?" and not "You can't do that! ____ would never do that!" because that misses the point.

I'd say we avoid it, but we do need a way to handle "corrupted". If nothing else, what does it take to corrupt someone?
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Post by Talisman »

Perhaps a "Heroism vs Corruption" scale, where people like Fingolfin and Glorfindel have high Heroism, and evil bastards working for Morgoth have a high Corruption? Committing certain deeds (murdering innocents, blatant cowardice, using the weapons of the Enemy) could slide you towards Corruption, while heroic deeds slide you toward Heroism.

But then, how do we model Feanor: a heroic bastard Craftmaster? He performed great deeds and fought Morgoth bitterly (heroism), but he was a heartless jerk, mass murderer, and kinslayer (corruption).

The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to just leave alignment out of it. Maybe just use taint, like the OA/Heroes of Horror system (only done better). Using the weapons of the Enemy, willingly consorting with Balrogs, and performing evil deeds could raise your Taint until you become a willing slave to Morgoth.

Another thought: Tolkien's heroes were complex characters with tragic flaws. Maybe each PC has to pick a flaw, such as Proud, or Rash, or Stubborn (or even just Doomed - Turin, anyone?). I'd call Fingolfin Proud; Turgon was Stubborn (and so was Thingol); and Feanor seemed to have three or four flaws.

We could link these Flaws to corresponding Virtues (or let players choose each freely) or not.
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Post by Elennsar »

I like the sound of it, but I wouldn't want to get carried away with Tragic Flaws. Definately have PCs have something that can bite them on the ass with interesting times, though. Even triumph is edged with tragedy in the First Age, and often replaced by it.

Taint definately sounds good.
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Post by Talisman »

What if you can activate your Flaw to give you specific bonuses, but every "flaw point" you spent is a point the GM will use to bite you in the ass later? Then it becomes an option rather than a crippling weakness.

We'll put limits on what the GM can do with Flaw Points, as well. No "rocks fall, everybody dies" because your Pride helped you resist a Domination spell.

Edit: Spelling
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Post by Elennsar »

That would be very fitting if we wrote the mechanics right.

Even a not-so-terrible trait, listed as a "Flaw" (in this sense), would be wonderful to use.

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Post by IGTN »

Possibly, instead, whenever you are held back by your flaw you get a flaw point, which you can spend to gain benefit from it. Your pride pushes away a useful ally, and then it protects you from magical domination.
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Post by Talisman »

Why not do both?

Let's say you have the Tragic Flaw of Pride. This means that you can spend "good" Pride Points to gain specified benefits, which give the GM "bad" Pride Points which he can later spend to whack you with.

Also, the GM can spend "bad" Pride Points to make your life interesting, even if you haven't spent any "good" Pride Points - but this gives you an equal number of "good" Pride Points to spend later.

There should also be a cap on both ends of this equation...no spending hundreds of points to gain crazy bonuses, and no GM spending hundreds of points to make you go all asplodey.
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Post by Elennsar »

Yeah. I'd lean towards more bad than good (being Proud tends to lead to your downfall), but if so, it needs to be interesting bad. Having a tragic ending instead of a happy ending is one thing.

But yes, by all means "Both.".

However, changing Tragic Flaws so you're not Proud any more should take an extreme amount of effort...it doesn't appear that happens in the Silmarilion and I don't want to encourage people doing otherwise in our game.

Wouldn't fit the source material.
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Post by Orion »

If you can stomach White Wolf at all, check out Exalted. It's like 4th edition in that a casual description sounds pretty good, but the ideas are badly implemented. Still the ideas behind it are awesome, so it might be worth a look.

-- Second-age heroics are the norm
-- mass combat taken seriously, with a system in which the men you lead become like an item you wear
-- each hero has a Flaw
-- "Alignment" system consists of a rating on each of four Virtues: compassion, valor, conviction, temperance. Acting against them costs Willpower (think edge)
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Post by ludomastro »

Talisman wrote: Let's say you have the Tragic Flaw of Pride. This means that you can spend "good" Pride Points to gain specified benefits, which give the GM "bad" Pride Points which he can later spend to whack you with.

Also, the GM can spend "bad" Pride Points to make your life interesting, even if you haven't spent any "good" Pride Points - but this gives you an equal number of "good" Pride Points to spend later.
Sounds a bit like the tagging of aspects in the FATE system. As the GM, I can compel you (you get a Fate point) to get all Prideful in negative way while you can in turn use your Fate points to have your Pride work to your advantage.

EDITED for clarity.
Last edited by ludomastro on Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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