Learning how to play a caster

[virgil]

I have a player that generally doesn't do well with casters in D&D, but he wants to improve and learn. He's not interested in playing a Fire mage since, while it acts like a caster, it doesn't actually improve his ability to plan ahead with spells and the like.

Are there any suggestions for this player, such as class and/or build (using F&K)? He's more or less wanting something between a Fire Mage and a Wizard (opposite ends of the complexity/planning spectrum).

[Avoraciopoctules]

Beguiler and Dread Necromancer have mostly fixed lists of spells, many of which are at least decent. Beguiler involves much less minion stat tracking. I'll try digging up some mage class links from this board as well.

Question: Do classes with lists of SLAs (Conduit, Spherelock, etc.) work?

[CatharzGodfoot]

Yeah, Beguiler or Dread Necro are probably best. Sorcerer is really a trap when you're a newbie, because you have the option of learning only shitty spells. If you're starting at low level, going straight to the wizard might actually be fine.

[Orion]

I would actually recommend a Sorcerer unless he's played enough D&D and is observant enough to know his way around the spell lists. He'll need an experienced caster player to help him pick spells so that he doesn't suck, true.

However, a 4th-level Sorcerer knows seriously 5 spells. That's a little small actually unless you take really flexible spells like Grease and Summon (though I would steer him away from Summon). If you throw in Arcane Disciple he can have 7 spells.

A Beguiler, on the other hand, will know like upwards of 30 spells at level 5. That's substantially more difficult to wrap your head around.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Beguiler, hands down.

Give him this:
http://rapidshare.com/files/226500796/B ... 5.pdf.html

I can't claim credit for making it, but it is the most useful document ever for Beguilers.

The Beguiler is a good mix between blaster and planned caster, actually. They have the big win spells like Deep Slumber and Color Spray, in addition to the battlefield altering spells like Vertigo, in addition to the creativity spells like Silent Image, in addition to a blasting spell like Whelm.

Explain to him that Whelm is a fallback. When in trouble, he can mindblast people, but in general he should be using Charm Person, because it has the same saving throw and takes them out of the fight. Explain to him Swift/Immediate Action Spells (Distract Assailant, Stay the Hand, Greater Mirror Image), and how they save your ass when you are about to be hit. Make him take ranks in Search and UMD, give him the Lesser Vigor wand, and you have a full spellcaster, blaster (Whelm), trap finder, enemy converter (Charm/Suggestion), buffer (Haste, UMD), debuffer (Slow, Vertigo), and healer (UMD) in one tight package. You let him Attune Domain (Summoning), and you can add Summoner to the list.

Let him read:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500
and
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=805782 (especially the last part about combat tactics)

Honestly, Beguilers are THAT good.

Here is a sample 28? point buy build made up for the Eberron Campaign I'm about to start:

Gray (Aerenal) Elf (+2 Int, +2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Str)

Beguiler 6/Mindbender 1/Beguiler 13

Str - 8-2 6 (-2)
Dex - 12+2 14 (+2)
Con - 12-2 10
Int - 18+2 20 (+5)
Wis - 10 10
Cha - 10 10

Advanced Learning:
Distract Assailant at level 3
Shadow Conjuration (a level 4 spell) at level 8
Shadow Evocation (a level 5 spell) at level 12

Flaw - noncombatant (-2 on melee attack rolls)

Feats
1(flaw) - Spell Focus (Illusion)
1 - Greater Spell Focus (Illusion)
3 - Mastery of Twisted Shadow (Players Guide to Eberron) - free concealment after every illusion spell cast (1rnd/spell lvl)(also, HiPS by association)
6 - Mastery of Dreams (+1 Illusion/Nightmare DC)

level 6 will see you DC 10(base)+3(spell)+5(int)+2(int item)+3(feats) = DC 23 Illusion Spells that give you 20% concealment (this makes you invisible with a Hide check).

Also, you get a longbow and don't suck with it in the early levels.

[RandomCasualty2]

Also, you get a longbow and don't suck with it in the early levels.

With 6 strength, aren't you better off using a crossbow?

[Judging__Eagle]

Also, you get a longbow and don't suck with it in the early levels.

With 6 strength, aren't you better off using a crossbow?

1d8, no reload time. That's not bad.

[RandomCasualty2]

1d8, no reload time. That's not bad.

I thought it'd be 1d8-2, since the str penalty applies to bows, but not crossbows.

Also crossbows can be used while prone, which is pretty nice for a wizardly type if you run into a lot of archers.

[NineInchNall]

If he wants to learn to plan ahead with spells and the like, then he should play a prepared caster. Simple as that. Give him the power and the glory that is the Druid. Seriously the best introduction to casters one could ask for.

[Orion]

The hell?

Because dealing with preparation casting, pets, *and* polymorhping is the logical way to show him playing a caster is not that scary...

Right.

[virgil]

Boolean's response is pretty close to my player's in regards to the idea of being a druid. It seems my first thought, the beguiler, is one of the more popular options here. I'm not sure exactly what his problem was with the sorcerer though. Maybe it's the lack of second chances if poor choices are made in spells known.

He's still interested in the idea of being a necromantic cleric, so I'll find out which he ultimately decides on next time we speak.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

You can hose yourself as a sorcerer pretty easily:
"Magic Aura looks like a fun spell"

Necromantic Cleric is a bad idea unless he is very familiar with melee. there are many things to keep track of (3 pools of undead, for starters).

Honestly, the best experience that we had starting off a character into spellcasting was a Tome Conduit of the Lower Planes. You get a bunch of reasonably good spells that fit a theme. Take your first 3 sphere as the same ones (main theme), and then branch out at level 7. At level 10 you get 6 levels in Sorcerer, so you can pick the utility spells you feel that you've been missing out on.

A druid can be done right, actually. Here is the feat build:
Human Druid X
1 - Rapid Summoning
1 - Spell Focus (Conjuration)
3 - Augment Summoning
6 - Healers Touch
9 - Natural Spell

Print them out the list of summons:
http://www.spellbooksoftware.com/d20/summons/index.html

Explain to them that they can place one of those per spell level per standard action.

At level 6 they can heal everyone up to 1/2 hp (couple this with a wand of lesser vigor).

At level 9 they can turn into an animal (just use the standard "replace your token with this token"). They should understand how to fight as the animal, due to their experience playing fighter-types.

All through this, they can be experimenting with what spells work and what ones don't (the ones that don't get Summon Natures Ally'd).

[Gelare]

You can hose yourself as a sorcerer pretty easily:
"Magic Aura looks like a fun spell"

Out of curiosity, who here can tell me why Nystul's Magic Aura isn't similarly broken as Fabricate and Wall of Iron? No NPC merchant ever drops 110 gp on Identify when you sell him random loot from your recent face-stabbings, so why not just spend one first level spell for every masterwork weapon you come across and pawn them off as +5 swords of asswhupping?

[CatharzGodfoot]

He's still interested in the idea of being a necromantic cleric, so I'll find out which he ultimately decides on next time we speak.

Any reason he's specifically interested in being a cleric necromancer? Because the dread necro really is a fine newbie caster class if he just wants to be a necromancer in general.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Out of curiosity, who here can tell me why Nystul's Magic Aura isn't similarly broken as Fabricate and Wall of Iron?

It makes DMs hate you.

Somehow at level 9 when you are selling perfectly normal iron to people, it is usually fine. The DM will have the iron market plummet (it should), and people will build useful iron things in town.

At level 1 when you trick the merchant, he is going to get a Sense Motive, then an appraise, and then maybe an Identify. I guarantee you. If you get away with it (you probably won't), then the DM will claim that you have made him an enemy and if you come back he is going to be angry. Let's be honest, you are lying to them just like you cast Glibness, another spell that gets a routine DM-nerf.

[virgil]

You're not tricking the merchant when you sell them iron, so his extant Sense Motive stuff isn't coming into play.

Then there's the fact that no campaign ever truly details the selling process, especially for magic items. Portable, exceedingly high price, items of war? If there's an actual stable market for them, then I don't see how they wouldn't strive for protection that would actually maintain this stability.

[Amra]

Beguiler, hands down.

Give him this:
http://rapidshare.com/files/226500796/B ... 5.pdf.html

I can't claim credit for making it, but it is the most useful document ever for Beguilers.

Sounds fantastic, but I can't get at it because it tells me the download limit has been reached Any chance of reposting it somewhere? Pwetty pwease?

[Gelare]

You're not tricking the merchant when you sell them iron, so his extant Sense Motive stuff isn't coming into play.

Big deal, so don't trick him.

Cast the spell, then hand the stick to your dim-witted buddy who was standing over there and say, "This is a powerfully magical sword. Go sell it for lots of money."

In this case, Sense Motive (on the merchant's side) does no good because the person doing the selling believes what he says, Appraise does no good because magic weapons just look like masterwork weapons (unless they glow, in which case you can cast Light, too), and seriously, which merchants ever cast Identify, especially on low-ticket items like +1 swords? That's an extra 11% the merchant would have to spend to pick it up from you.

[virgil]

My reference to the Sense Motive for your iron 'mine' was in reference to SunTzu's implications that merchants aren't distrusting when dealing with a metric load of masterwork locks and suits of full-plate like they are with magic item purchases.

There's a 1,500gp (maybe 1.8k) item from the MIC that gives you identify at will.

To be honest, any merchant with *that* much cash to give an adventurer effectively on-demand is going to have stupidly larger amounts in investments; which means he can afford to have real security and real verification, because this is a berk with connections. Really, we're talking about people who would regularly do business with trained & dangerous murderers; they're not going to want to suffer the wrath of the next adventurer they sell that phony sword they think to be awesome.

EDIT: One technique I've done is to have magic item merchants actually function as a living Craigslist. They create a web of information on various people of power and attempt to fulfill their item needs by directing & facilitating trade between such people, making any particular merchant never having anything valuable on-hand, and any attempts at robbery needs to be planned in conjunction with a trade, and thus the real security is between the people who would actually use that vorpal sword.

[RandomCasualty2]

To be honest, any merchant with *that* much cash to give an adventurer effectively on-demand is going to have stupidly larger amounts in investments; which means he can afford to have real security and real verification, because this is a berk with connections.

Yeah. I just don't see any merchant just taking an adventurers word for it that the item is what the guy says it is. I mean maybe if your character has a very trusted reputation and is some goody two shoes like a paladin they may take his word on it. But some guy off the street saying "This is a holy avenger... seriously it is." is going to have that object's authenticity get verified.

Anyone putting down that kind of money is going to going to check up on their investment prior to doing anything, unless they're a total fool (which rich people in D&D tend not to be).

[Prak]

Out of curiosity, who here can tell me why Nystul's Magic Aura isn't similarly broken as Fabricate and Wall of Iron?

It makes DMs hate you.

Somehow at level 9 when you are selling perfectly normal iron to people, it is usually fine. The DM will have the iron market plummet (it should), and people will build useful iron things in town.

At level 1 when you trick the merchant, he is going to get a Sense Motive, then an appraise, and then maybe an Identify. I guarantee you. If you get away with it (you probably won't), then the DM will claim that you have made him an enemy and if you come back he is going to be angry. Let's be honest, you are lying to them just like you cast Glibness, another spell that gets a routine DM-nerf.

What about Entice Gift. I made a dm really hate me with that one...

[NineInchNall]

The hell?

Because dealing with preparation casting, pets, *and* polymorhping is the logical way to show him playing a caster is not that scary...

Right.

Actually, yes.

The player wants to learn "to plan ahead with spells and the like." Playing a spontaneous caster does not accomplish this. A prepared caster does.

Being a Druid or a Cleric alleviates a lot of the "I made a bad spell choice" crap that you get into with a Wizard or Sorcerer, allowing the player to try different spells and spell combinations with no lasting commitment.

The Druid's animal companion will give the melee player a bit of a security blanket, because it does exactly what the player's other characters have always done: run up and attack-trip.

The Druid's lack of low level fragility and eventual wild shaping provide yet more security and a stronger bridge between the new character and the player's normal repertoire.

[Gelare]

I dunno, cleric seems like a fine choice, but druids have a lot of complicated class features (a bonus fighter; anything having to do with polymorph ever) that really make it sound like you're throwing them in the deep end without floaties. I'd go cleric.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Cleric is a pretty good bridge as well, being a divine fighter for a good number of levels.

re-posted:
http://rapidshare.com/files/227342785/B ... 5.pdf.html

The link contains every Beguiler spell, re-printed, and organized. Although about 90% of these are core, the reprinting of the PHB2 spells is a bit sketchy on legality. I don't think Wizards is going to bust me for this one, but I'm not exactly about to post it on my site, if you don't mind.

[Parthenon]

Druid sounds pretty good. After all, one can simply ignore the wild shape. Druids are oft considered extremely powerful, so a druid isn't that much weaker than other party members if you have an okay companion and have some idea which spells to avoid.

If you do start to get worried, add a spell or two to their spell list.

Hell, really go crazy and have a halfling/gnome druid and a small companion that shares your space and takes hits for you. That way they move about the same and get free attacks and an extra pool of hit points. That way they can focus almost solely on spell casting.