Resource mechanics, ambushes, et cetera

TavishArtair · Post by **TavishArtair** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:05 am

So there's been some discussion on acceptable resource schedules. And one that people like a lot is the "charge up" mechanic, even though it really sucks for creating a system that doesn't cause ambushes to win automatically. Of course, sometimes you want a system where ambushes win (like in aWoD, to some extent) as there are good and bad times to attack. But for much fantasy genre emulation, this is unacceptable. So this is why Winds of Fate is a popular suggestion from Frank's corner. We've also discussed Guilty Gear-style "tension gauge" mechanics, and how attacks on other people doesn't work as a resource mechanic as you wind up with the "hitting chickens/bag of rats" problem. Just to recap.

However, in my wanderings I stumbled across a set of interesting ideas, and wanted to discuss them here. Briefly, two possibilities, that are separate, albeit a bit related.

A) Winds of Fate... for everyone?: Is it more fair if everyone gets equally subject to the same Winds of Fate roll, or more boring?

B) The Powerup Sequence Heard Round the World: Presuming characters are allowed to accumulate resources round to round, which usually is problematic due to chicken-choking or similar nonsense, wouldn't these problems be largely resolved if activating your powerup sequence automatically betrays your location, effectively allowing your opponent to automatically respond?

Akula · Post by **Akula** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:47 am

B) Would depend on the amount of advantage you could wring from a chicken's neck in the time it takes for the enemies to get themselves together and attack you. Too much and it wouldn't work.

A) You mean only one WoF roll that everyone then uses, right? I'm in favor of this. Less rolling and adds a little bit of strategy to the party's ability placement.

Caedrus · Post by **Caedrus** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:04 am

What is this "Winds of Fate" roll? Google didn't give me anything helpful...

Akula · Post by **Akula** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:13 am

You have a d6. At the beginning of your turn you roll it. It has one or two (or more) abilities assigned to each number. The number you roll determines what abilities you can use that round.

Caedrus · Post by **Caedrus** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:21 am

And what system uses this?

Akula · Post by **Akula** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:23 am

No idea. I never saw it before coming here. It is really balanced though.

Quantumboost · Post by **Quantumboost** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:27 pm

It was a mechanic suggested by (uncertaion) Frank? I don't recall what it was actually for, but it was suggested as a way to break up the monotony of "autoattack, autoattack, autoattack" seen in 4E. Might have been for Fantastic!.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:42 pm

Since when does 'so fucking random you can't plan at all' qualify as balanced? Yes, it does block auto attacks, but that's about all it has going for it.

Quantumboost · Post by **Quantumboost** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:01 pm

Roy wrote:Since when does 'so fucking random you can't plan at all' qualify as balanced? Yes, it does block auto attacks, but that's about all it has going for it.

Since when does balance require things to be predictable? If you and your opponent have identical abilities with identical bonii and identical strategies etc., having randomly selected subsets of your abilities on each turn, you'll still win roughly 50% of the time. That's balanced. Whether or not you personally like randomness, it's balanced.

Here's the first mention of the scheme, looks like it was actually for D&Discourse. There's enough predictability that you can actually plan things out - you can always count on having your "1" abilities, and it's very likely that you'll have your "2" or even "3" abilities, and any decent plan will take into account unknown variables (i.e., "if I roll a 1, I'll use X, if I roll a 2, I'll use Y...").

It looks like the entire point was to incentivise you to use a variety of attacks, so not doing more than that isn't really a weakness of the system, any more than "not flying" is a weakness of your toaster.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:05 pm

Given the number of people here that throw whiny shit fits just because you have enemies use greataxes or scythes, with associated high critical hit modifiers in D&D I would say quite a few people require balance = predictable. And that's without considering the 'No items, Fox only, FINAL DESTINATION' crowd that for those unfamiliar with the Smash Brothers series are aiming to make battles as predictable as possible for the sake of balance.

And if all it were meant to do is to do all sorts of random stuff, then it would be fine since it does that. But there are people here claiming this is balance, and that's who I'm talking to.

violence in the media · Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:28 pm

Roy wrote:Given the number of people here that throw whiny shit fits just because you have enemies use greataxes or scythes, with associated high critical hit modifiers in D&D I would say quite a few people require balance = predictable. And that's without considering the 'No items, Fox only, FINAL DESTINATION' crowd that for those unfamiliar with the Smash Brothers series are aiming to make battles as predictable as possible for the sake of balance.

And if all it were meant to do is to do all sorts of random stuff, then it would be fine since it does that. But there are people here claiming this is balance, and that's who I'm talking to.

I have no real opinion of Winds of Fate either way, but would you please resolve this denouncement of predictability with your prior tirades against Iterative Probability?

I'm not calling you out to be a dick, I'm genuinely curious because you seem to be arguing against both ends of a continuum. Am I to believe that you endorse some middle route?

What would your ideal conflict resolution scheme look like? Should failure be randomized? Should it be something entirely avoidable via system mastery and smart play?

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:04 pm

violence in the media wrote:
Roy wrote:Given the number of people here that throw whiny shit fits just because you have enemies use greataxes or scythes, with associated high critical hit modifiers in D&D I would say quite a few people require balance = predictable. And that's without considering the 'No items, Fox only, FINAL DESTINATION' crowd that for those unfamiliar with the Smash Brothers series are aiming to make battles as predictable as possible for the sake of balance.

And if all it were meant to do is to do all sorts of random stuff, then it would be fine since it does that. But there are people here claiming this is balance, and that's who I'm talking to.
I have no real opinion of Winds of Fate either way, but would you please resolve this denouncement of predictability with your prior tirades against Iterative Probability?

I'm not calling you out to be a dick, I'm genuinely curious because you seem to be arguing against both ends of a continuum. Am I to believe that you endorse some middle route?

What would your ideal conflict resolution scheme look like? Should failure be randomized? Should it be something entirely avoidable via system mastery and smart play?

Iterative Probability is a (presumably small) chance of something going wrong, repeated many times when that thing only needs to happen once. In other words, even the smallest amount of unpredictability can snowball when the consequences for failure are severe. And when they aren't severe, it doesn't really matter what you do. Similarly, as the PCs you need consistent and reliable results because if you are dependent on luck based tactics such as critical hits, well sooner or later you aren't going to manage that and then you will get annihilated for failing. How is this a contradiction?

What I am doing is trying to consolidate people calling out winds of fate as balanced (as opposed to merely different) with the typical mindset that seems to hate high critical multiplier weapons but rarely has any problem with win spells. In other words, why is some total randomness acceptable for balance purposes and other sorts not?

The other question would probably warrant a new thread, and I don't care enough to discuss it right now.

Caedrus · Post by **Caedrus** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:57 pm

I don't like the "Winds of Fate" idea so much. I would much prefer that dynamic combat flow was created more "naturally" than enforced so artificially by a die roll saying "this is what abilities you can use." That is, changing conditions in combat and the way abilities and ability activation and so forth interact can naturally encourage players to change up their attack routines without resorting to heavyhanded randomness.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:15 pm

Caedrus wrote:I don't like the "Winds of Fate" idea so much. I would much prefer that dynamic combat flow was created more "naturally" than enforced so artificially by a die roll saying "this is what abilities you can use." That is, changing conditions in combat and the way abilities and ability activation and so forth interact can naturally encourage players to change up their attack routines without resorting to heavyhanded randomness.

Good luck with that.

But in a dice-based resolution mechanic the positions of the combatants that you are responding "naturally" to are the results of die rolls. Why fuck with the players by making them work out what abilities are usable with multiple inputs and charts when t can be reduced to a single die roll?

The 4e skill challenge system isn't better than just rolling a die. If you're only interested in one result there is nothing to be gained from rolling and comparing lots of die rolls as opposed to just making one die roll.

-Username17

mean_liar · Post by **mean_liar** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:31 pm

Within the context of 4e its probably not worth the effort, but simply assigning a Tag to whatever power/maneuver/etc you're using and then having those Tags persist over a round and provide a Paper-Scissors-Rock element (ie, a Reckless attack means you're vulnerable to Precise attacks but more resistant against Defensive maneuvers) is a easy and good way to do the dynamic.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:34 pm

Then what you would end up with is a 'Five Moves Of Doom' thing where players intentionally or unintentionally cycled through the same list over and over for the best attack. So when the enemy had the 'scissors' tag they would use the 'rock' attack. And next round, now that they have the 'rock' tag the player would then use the 'paper' attack. And so-on.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:55 pm

mean_liar wrote:Within the context of 4e its probably not worth the effort, but simply assigning a Tag to whatever power/maneuver/etc you're using and then having those Tags persist over a round and provide a Paper-Scissors-Rock element (ie, a Reckless attack means you're vulnerable to Precise attacks but more resistant against Defensive maneuvers) is a easy and good way to do the dynamic.

Like the Top Secret martial arts chart?

Or the AD&D psionic attack/defense modes?

(Although I think those were both chosen simultaneously, come to think of it.)

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:58 pm

Let's consider a situation where you have an "Unbalancing Strike" that changes the battlefield when used. If it works, your enemy wants to use a "Yellow" maneuver because that resets their footing. And if it does not work it makes your enemy want to use a "Red" maneuver because now you are off balance and are vulnerable to Red attacks. That's a system that "naturally" encourages people to use moves in response to the tactical situation, right? Wrong. It's a completely arbitrary set of rules that gives people completely arbitrary and randomly generated sets of incentives and restrictions.

You're not actually swinging a warhammer around, you're telling a story and generating the results of contests between characters with abstract dice rolling and filling in the narrative based on those results. The character swings his hammer and his follow through leaves the hammer up high opening him up for a devastating overhand chop. But that's all flavor text that the players generate in the middle of the game based on the die rolls. There is nothing to be gained by having the game generate the position of the hammer and then having the player figure out that a devastating overhand chop would be effective. The game simply generates that the character has an opening for a devastating overhand chop and the precise reason for this is left to the imagination.

To do anything else is simultaneously too much work and bad for the narrative.

-Username17

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:13 pm

The game simply generates that the character has an opening for a devastating overhand chop and the precise reason for this is left to the imagination.

We went over this a zillion times in the last Winds of Fate thread, but what's one more time?

The disconnect comes when the player wonders why he can't even try to use the overhand chop. Like the dwarf goes 'okay, I want to use my Triple Axe Slash' attack and then the game goes 'sorry, no, but you CAN use the Cut Two Ways' attacks and the dwarf player is left wondering why he can't attempt to swing an axe one way but not another.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:33 pm

If your opponent is in the crane stance you gotta sweep the leg. You can't pull them in the direction of their momentum because they don't have any fucking momentum. You are sparring, and there are maneuvers that you can do, and other maneuvers you can't do. And that makes perfect sense and is totally explicable to someone participating in or watching that combat.

But in a fantasy combat game, the relative positions of the target are totally unclear. You have no idea if your opponent is looming over you (preventing an overhand chop but leaving him open for an upward thrust) or ducking under a raised weapon (preventing an upward thrust but leaving him open for a downward smash). Both combatants are represented by a fucking miniature on the board. And both miniatures are in a Vallejoesque action pose that never changes because they are made of pewter. But the characters are in a dynamic fight for their lives and their position is changing constantly in relative and absolute terms. And all of this micro level position information like who is standing inside whose guard and where peoples' momentums are going is all generated by magic teaparty. The rules flat don't say. And they should not say.

The only important information is what abilities you have an opening for. So that is the information that the game rules should generate. Explicitly. And as simply as possible. The exact reason why those abilities are usable or not can be left to magical teaparty. Should be left to magical teaparty. Because the specific circumstances that you're fighting in are going to be different every time and rules complex enough to generate the kind of micro level positioning information required to be able to derive what abilities are usable and which are not is simultaneously impossible and undesirable.

If you can't come up with a reason on the fly for why your character can use power thrust but cannot use spin attack you are too uncreative and shouldn't be trying to play actual role playing games. Seriously, just go play Final Fantasy XI or any other game where your imagination is not required.

-Username17

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:36 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:The disconnect comes when the player wonders why he can't even try to use the overhand chop. Like the dwarf goes 'okay, I want to use my Triple Axe Slash' attack and then the game goes 'sorry, no, but you CAN use the Cut Two Ways' attacks and the dwarf player is left wondering why he can't attempt to swing an axe one way but not another.

I don't experience that as a disconnect at all. In a real-life fight, the openings you are presented with and your available moves frequently do not match up, and if you take the time to reposition yourself to exploit the opening, it has probably closed in the meantime.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:44 pm

I don't experience that as a disconnect at all. In a real-life fight, the openings you are presented with and your available moves frequently do not match up, and if you take the time to reposition yourself to exploit the opening, it has probably closed in the meantime.

Right, but even if the boxer can't actually land his patented Double Uppercut unless his opponent is reeling, what is stopping him from trying?

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:50 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
I don't experience that as a disconnect at all. In a real-life fight, the openings you are presented with and your available moves frequently do not match up, and if you take the time to reposition yourself to exploit the opening, it has probably closed in the meantime.
Right, but even if the boxer can't actually land his patented Double Uppercut unless his opponent is reeling, what is stopping him from trying?

Are you suggesting that players should be able to use all of their abilities every round, but only a small subset actually do anything?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:00 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
I don't experience that as a disconnect at all. In a real-life fight, the openings you are presented with and your available moves frequently do not match up, and if you take the time to reposition yourself to exploit the opening, it has probably closed in the meantime.
Right, but even if the boxer can't actually land his patented Double Uppercut unless his opponent is reeling, what is stopping him from trying?

If your opponent is in the crane stance you cannot pull them n the direction of their momentum because they have no directional momentum. Period. End of story.

-Username17

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:00 pm

Are you suggesting that players should be able to use all of their abilities every round, but only a small subset actually do anything?

I did propose a mechanic in this thread that should cover it. Just scroll down to 'Deathblow'.