[Tome feat] Mystic Dilettante

[Avoraciopoctules]

I am considering adding some Tome options to my A.S.E. campaign setting. These will mainly be feats. Because of this, I feel more comfortable improving the feat-based spellcasting I created when I drafted the setting. Is this feat's power appropriate for Tome? Should I make any changes?

Mystic Dilettante [General]
For you, magic is a hobby.
Prerequisite: Level 3 or higher
Benefit: You can cast spells as a PHB Sorcerer of your level-2, with a few changes. You may choose any mental ability score as your casting stat and may pick spells from any nonspecialized (So no domains or Beguiler spells) list. You may swap out spells on your list of Known Spells with a day of downtime and access to a scroll of the spell you want to learn.

[Surgo]

Special: If you take this feat, you cannot take any [Leadership] feats. If you have any [Leadership] feats, you cannot take this feat.

[CatharzGodfoot]

...pick spells from any nonspecialized (So no domains or Beguiler spells) list.

What does this even mean? Wouldn't you learn spells from the sorcerer spell list?


On the face of it, I think that a feat like this is too good. You can talk about how leadership 'lets you do the same thing', but leadership forces you to worry about a weaker character and doesn't include personal-range spells.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Special: If you take this feat, you cannot take any [Leadership] feats. If you have any [Leadership] feats, you cannot take this feat.

Would this include all feats that grant cohorts? There are multiple ways for someone in Tome to get a cohort along with a number of other benefits. Unless you are restricted to a single cohort per capita regardless of how many different ways you qualify for one, I have difficulty understanding this restriction.

...pick spells from any nonspecialized (So no domains or Beguiler spells) list.

What does this even mean? Wouldn't you learn spells from the sorcerer spell list?

The intent is for you to be able to grab cleric or druid spells if you want them.

On the face of it, I think that a feat like this is too good. You can talk about how leadership 'lets you do the same thing', but leadership forces you to worry about a weaker character and doesn't include personal-range spells.

You can take an intelligent magical item as a cohort (In Tome, these function as Sorcerers). This renders it hard to damage and makes interfering with its casting difficult. In my opinion, the key advantage cohorts have over the suggested feat is that the cohorts do not use your actions. They can cast Web in addition to whatever you are doing. You can't do that if you are the one who knows the spells.

[Surgo]

Would this include all feats that grant cohorts? There are multiple ways for someone in Tome to get a cohort along with a number of other benefits. Unless you are restricted to a single cohort per capita regardless of how many different ways you qualify for one, I have difficulty understanding this restriction.

How do you get a cohort besides a Leadership feat or an intelligent magic item? As an intelligent magic item is something the DM has to actually drop in your lap, not only is it non-regulatable but it doesn't even have to be regulated. Besides that, what is there besides the feats?

[Avoraciopoctules]

Class features can give you cohorts. See Master of Snake Mountain.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Alright, so here's an entirely subjective heuristic for whether the feat is too good: would almost every single character take it? Would almost all players change their characters' ability scores just to accommodate this feat? If the answer is yes, it's probably too good.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Alright, so here's an entirely subjective heuristic for whether the feat is too good: would almost every single character take it? Would almost all players change their characters' ability scores just to accommodate this feat? If the answer is yes, it's probably too good.

In terms of optimization, given a choice between Mystic Dilettante and this:



I would generally pick Leadership. In terms of flavor, I feel equally drawn to either. I will check with the others in my RPG group.

[Akula]

This feat is better than leadership.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Because of the ability to use personal spells, or the difficulty of having it taken away?

What offsets the action cost?

[Akula]

Because everyone ever is going to take it. It is also better than straight up being a Sorcerer.

Rods of Quicken? Swift action spells? Buffing before combat? All day buffs?

[Avoraciopoctules]

Because everyone ever is going to take it. It is also better than straight up being a Sorcerer.

Yes. The Sorcerer is not generally viewed as a Tome class.

Rods of Quicken? Swift action spells? Buffing before combat? All day buffs?

And are these better than an extra SoD every round of combat? The cohort can come with their own copies of these.

[Akula]

I don't think I ever said it was.

I am considering adding some Tome options to my A.S.E. campaign setting. These will mainly be feats.

More importantly, we aren't talking about classes.

Is your argument going to be that Leadership is more over powered? I could see that. But it is a silly argument to make, leadership is stupid powerful. This feat is more powerful than any other feat, and is arguably more powerful than Leadership.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Alright, so here's an entirely subjective heuristic for whether the feat is too good: would almost every single character take it? Would almost all players change their characters' ability scores just to accommodate this feat? If the answer is yes, it's probably too good.

In terms of optimization, given a choice between Mystic Dilettante and this:



I would generally pick Leadership. In terms of flavor, I feel equally drawn to either. I will check with the others in my RPG group.

The question wasn't about weighing the subjective value of two different feats against each other. The question was whether, given the opportunity, you would take the Mystic Dilettante feat with just about any character.

Yes. The Sorcerer is not generally viewed as a Tome class.

I can't let that slide either. Although Tome rules have altered the sorcerer a bit from Skip's version (e.g. letting them use quicken spell), the sorcerer is just as competitive in the CR tests as just about any other Tome class. They aren't quite as good as the wizard, but they gain access to most of the same cheese. If the rogue and the fire mage are Tome classes, so is the sorcerer.

[virgil]

With a feat that grants a cohort, you can have a dedicated specialist on top of doubling your actions each round. On the other hand, you don't have to spend nearly twice as many defensive resources w/Dilettante, because you only have to protect yourself; as opposed to two characters with Leadership. Dilettante is a more defensive choice in comparison to the more offensive choice with Leadership.

The real problem begins when you play some other Charisma-based caster and then take Dilettante, because now your stat-focus is pulling double time.

[CatharzGodfoot]

The real problem begins when you play some other Charisma-based caster and then take Dilettante, because now your stat-focus is pulling double time.

No, your metal attribute of choice always pulls double time, and that isn't a problem.

[virgil]

A fighter that takes Dilettante has to dedicate resources towards his spellcasting that he would otherwise not. Meanwhile, a caster with the same feat already has resources dedicated to improving spellcasting. Both are getting additional power, but one gets a lot more bang for their buck.

[CatharzGodfoot]

A fighter that takes Dilettante has to dedicate resources towards his spellcasting that he would otherwise not. Meanwhile, a caster with the same feat already has resources dedicated to improving spellcasting. Both are getting additional power, but one gets a lot more bang for their buck.

If you're already an Int or Wis based fighter, you're gold.

[MGuy]

How about simply putting in a restriction against people who are already casters from taking it. make this feat strictly for non-casters. You then up the ante for people who can't cast and keep druids and clerics from getting more fucking spells.

[IGTN]

Maybe if it doesn't allow you to pick a stat that you already use to cast spells of a spell level higher than it would allow? So if you're a Summoner, you can take this feat, but must use INT or WIS. If you're a Cleric, you must use INT or CHA. If you're a Wizard, you must use WIS or CHA. If you're a fighter, rogue, or have lost at least two caster levels you have your pick.

Maybe the level penalty could also stand to be bigger. The Conduit of the Lower Planes essentially gets this with a 4-level penalty, except that it has to specifically advance it.

[CatharzGodfoot]

How about simply putting in a restriction against people who are already casters from taking it. make this feat strictly for non-casters. You then up the ante for people who can't cast and keep druids and clerics from getting more fucking spells.

Clerics getting a bunch of sorcerer spell slots is no worse than a barbarian getting a bunch of sorcerer spell slots. At the very least, it would remove the need for bullshit dual-advancement classes.

Maybe the level penalty could also stand to be bigger. The Conduit of the Lower Planes essentially gets this with a 4-level penalty, except that it has to specifically advance it.

Unfortunately, it does put you in a sticky spot if you ever decide to focus more on spell casting and take a magic user PrC. It isn't a 'spellcasting class', so you can't advance it in cheater fashion. Interestingly, you can take and benefit from most caster PrCs without advancing any spell casting. Four levels less is right on the edge between 'hell yes I'll take it' and 'maybe I should just get another combat feat'.


Anyway, how about a 'savage dilettante' feat that gives you the BAB and class abilities (except fast healing) of a barbarian two levels below your own? That creates some nice symmetry for characters that should be primarily magic focused but have a bit of the ol' Conan up their sleeves. And provide a nice (but ultimately insignificant) boost to martial characters like monks and knights.

[MGuy]

Wouldn't adding lines of these kinds of feats eliminate the need to cross class at all? Lines of these kinds of feats would be the preferred 3rd level option for any kind of character optimization and since there would be no limit to them you would see characters with abilities from 3 different classes. Cleric with sorcerer spells and the bab and abilities of a barbarian? I do indeed think that the game would be worse off with these combinations.

Worse I think that there is a huge difference between giving a Cleric Sorcerer slots than giving a barbarian one. A barbarian at least can't cast while raging and a barbarian's abilities all revolve around that rage. A cleric (which is already powered enough) being able to get a whole new list of spells that operate on something they'd already have pumped up would be giving massive amount of goodies for the small cost of a 3rd level feat that by all means scales better then any other feat at its level.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Thank you for your feedback. This could definitely use some alteration. Here's a version with four changes.

Mystic Dilettante [General]
For you, magic is a hobby.
Prerequisite: Level 3 or higher
Benefit: You can cast spells as a PHB Sorcerer of your level-2, with a few changes. First, you do not automatically learn spells to fill your Spells Known slots. You must learn spells by copying from magical scrolls.You must prepare your spells in advance like a wizard. You may choose any mental ability score as your casting stat and may pick spells from the cleric, wizard, and druid lists. You may swap out spells on your list of Known Spells with a day of downtime and access to a scroll of the spell you want to learn.[/quote]Special: If you get spellcasting from another source, you must use a different mental attribute as your casting stat.

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Alright, so here's an entirely subjective heuristic for whether the feat is too good: would almost every single character take it? Would almost all players change their characters' ability scores just to accommodate this feat? If the answer is yes, it's probably too good.

In terms of optimization, given a choice between Mystic Dilettante and this:

[tome leadership image]

I would generally pick Leadership. In terms of flavor, I feel equally drawn to either. I will check with the others in my RPG group.

The question wasn't about weighing the subjective value of two different feats against each other. The question was whether, given the opportunity, you would take the Mystic Dilettante feat with just about any character.

Not any character, particularly with the latest restrictions. It's nice for utility and throwing down extra webs, but other feats grant at-will SLAs and immediate-action short-range teleports. Even when you can get spells that are more valuable than the actions you have already, you still have to find the scrolls. UMD allows you to do similar (and in some cases, better) things with wands.

Yes. The Sorcerer is not generally viewed as a Tome class.

I can't let that slide either. Although Tome rules have altered the sorcerer a bit from Skip's version (e.g. letting them use quicken spell), the sorcerer is just as competitive in the CR tests as just about any other Tome class. They aren't quite as good as the wizard, but they gain access to most of the same cheese. If the rogue and the fire mage are Tome classes, so is the sorcerer.

Ah. My mistake then, sorry.

With a feat that grants a cohort, you can have a dedicated specialist on top of doubling your actions each round. On the other hand, you don't have to spend nearly twice as many defensive resources w/Dilettante, because you only have to protect yourself; as opposed to two characters with Leadership. Dilettante is a more defensive choice in comparison to the more offensive choice with Leadership.

The real problem begins when you play some other Charisma-based caster and then take Dilettante, because now your stat-focus is pulling double time.

I've thrown a restriction into the current draft that should lower the appeal of the option for casters. Thank you for pointing that out.

Maybe if it doesn't allow you to pick a stat that you already use to cast spells of a spell level higher than it would allow? So if you're a Summoner, you can take this feat, but must use INT or WIS. If you're a Cleric, you must use INT or CHA. If you're a Wizard, you must use WIS or CHA. If you're a fighter, rogue, or have lost at least two caster levels you have your pick.

Maybe the level penalty could also stand to be bigger. The Conduit of the Lower Planes essentially gets this with a 4-level penalty, except that it has to specifically advance it.

Implemented, and thank you for the idea. I'm definitely considering dropping the effective level further.

How about simply putting in a restriction against people who are already casters from taking it. make this feat strictly for non-casters. You then up the ante for people who can't cast and keep druids and clerics from getting more fucking spells.

Ideally, this could represent any character who dabbles in generalist magic, regardless of whether they were a specialist in a particular type. I'm definitely keeping that as an option, but I'd prefer to avoid it. If I did implement such a modification, the feat would likely just give a bonus spell slot at each level you could fill with a spell from any core caster's list if you gained full spellcasting.[/quote]

[Yugo]

Anyway, how about a 'savage dilettante' feat that gives you the BAB and class abilities (except fast healing) of a barbarian two levels below your own? That creates some nice symmetry for characters that should be primarily magic focused but have a bit of the ol' Conan up their sleeves. And provide a nice (but ultimately insignificant) boost to martial characters like monks and knights.

I'll bite.

Remedial Martial Training
You may be an arcane spellcaster, but you also know how to whack things to death.
Level 1 Wizard or something: You gain proficiencies with simple weapons, martial weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields. You can cast arcane spells without failure even when using armor.
Level 6: Your base attack bonus is equal to your character level, irregardless of your character class(es). You make iterative attacks using this new BAB. You also gain 1 hit point per character level.
Level 11: As a standard action, you can make an attack with your weapon while also casting a spell that would take a standard action or less to cast normally. The act of attacking becomes that spell's somatic component, if that ever matters.
Level 16: The game's already broken, so who gives a shit?

[Yugo]

What happened with the formatting? I tried deleting and re-post. Didn't work.