9/11 again again...

[Crissa]

So it's that time again, with the video histories and whatnot on TV, and you know... It just pisses me off more and more.

I don't have any sympathy for the navy sending raw recruits to watch foreign inmates in our illegal holding procedures. And our response to 9/11 just pisses me off to no end. 'Zero Hour' episode of Inside 9/11 played today and it just pissed me off over and over.

We've done nothing to make it safer. Less than 4" knives and more than 3oz in a single container is banned! So what? They didn't use those things to finish off the planes. We harass people with funny names and bad IDs and limit those who can get passports! So what? That was what we were doing at the time! We changed from being minimum wage per-airport security to people who are still paid minimum wage but get off on having a federal badge.

We invaded two countries who didn't actually have any of the hijackers from them... For what? Less people voted in the most recent Afghani election than did the year before we invaded! More drugs are being sold from there! More women are being killed for violating patriarchal traditions than before.

And in the mean time, more Americans and foreign civilians have been killed in terrorist acts worldwide in the last eight years than in the eight years prior to and including 9/11.

So yeah, I just had an argument with my spouse, her anger is justified, but her targets are just meaningless, angry at the words and departments tweaked to the Bush administration's lackeys and misdeeds instead of realizing that they were violating our laws and the things those departments stood for.

Grr.

-Crissa

[tzor]

Oh please, cry me a river. Look, my next door neighbor died on 9/11 because he worked in the twin towers. My childhood friend and former neighbor didn’t die on 9/11 because he was working a few buildings down (but his building did get significant structural damage from the falling debris and he had to risk his life evacuating through that toxic cloud of twin tower dust).

And I was at Gen Con when the 3oz thing happened. Yes, the 3oz thing had nothing to do with 9/11. We can blame that all on the Brits. Yes airport security sucks, but if it didn’t suck, some other part of the airport would suck. Come to think of it, that’s how it has always been, going back to the Lockerby bombing. Pressure bombs, shoe bombs, bottle bombs, how come they always seem to try that shit in UK airports?

By the way, don’t you be pissing off on Obama’s “Good War.” As Obama stated in his speech in Cairo, “The situation in Afghanistan demonstrates America's goals and our need to work together. Over seven years ago, the United States pursued al-Qaida and the Taliban with broad international support. We did not go by choice. We went because of necessity. I'm aware that there's still some who would question or even justify the offense of 9/11. But let us be clear. Al-Qaida killed nearly 3,000 people on that day.”

In the mean time, there have been no major terrorist attacks on the US soil. NONE! Here is, by the way, the big list of all attacks since 9/11 with 100+ fatalities

12 Oct 2002: car bombing outside nightclub in Kuta, Indonesia (202)
26 Oct 2002: hostage taking and attempted rescue in theater in Moscow, Russia (includes 41 terrorists killed) (170)
29 Aug 2003: car bombing outside mosque in Najaf, Iraq (125)
1 Feb 2004: two suicide bombings of political party offices in Irbil, Iraq (109)
21 Feb 2004: armed attack and arson at refugee camp, Uganda (239)
27 Feb 2004: bombing and fire on ferry near Manila, Philippines (118)
2 Mar 2004: multiple suicide bombings at shrines in Kadhimiya and Karbala, Iraq (188)
11 Mar 2004: bombings of four trains in Madrid, Spain (191)
24 Jun 2004: multiple bombings and armed attacks in several cities in Iraq (103)
1-3 Sep 2004: hostage taking at school in Beslan, Russia (includes 30 terrorists killed) (366)
28 Feb 2005: car bombing outside medical clinic in Hilla, Iraq (135)
14 Sep 2005: multiple suicide bombings and shooting attacks in Baghdad, Iraq (182)
5 Jan 2006: bombings in Karbala, Ramadi, and Baghdad, Iraq (124)
11 Jul 2006: multiple bombings on commuter trains in Mumbai, India (200)
16 Oct 2006: truck bombing of military convoy near Habarana, Sri Lanka (103)
23 Nov 2006: multiple car bombings in Baghdad, Iraq (202)
22 Jan 2007: multiple bombings in Baghdad area, Iraq (101)
3 Feb 2007: truck bombing in market place in Baghdad, Iraq (137)
6 Mar 2007: two bombings and other attacks on pilgrims, Hilla, Iraq (137)
27 Mar 2007: two truck bombings in Tal Afar, Iraq (152)
18 Apr 2007: bombings in Baghdad, Iraq (193)
3-10 Jul 2007: hostage taking and subsequent storming of mosque in Islamabad, Pakistan (102)
7 Jul 2007: bombings in Baghdad and Armili, Iraq (182)
14 Aug 2007: multiple truck bombings in Al-Qataniyah and Al-Adnaniyah, Iraq (520)
18 Oct 2007: bombing of motorcade in Karachi, Pakistan (137)
17 Feb 2008: bombing at dogfighting festival in Kandahar, Afghanistan (105)
26-29 Nov 2008: multiple gun and grenade attacks and hostage takings in Mumbai, India (174)

So, yes, I am sick of you west coast irrational twits who were almost as far away from the terrorist attacks as were people in Europe. And fuck you for trying to open up this fucking wound. It’s over, Bush is gone. Get the fuck over it!

[Lich-Loved]

You forgot your sadness and anger over the roughly 3000 people killed in the attack.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Tzor, as narrow-minded and sheltered as Crissa is, it isn't her fault that the world trade center got bombed. It was a direct result of our foreign policy in the middle east. This is a bipartisan screwup, as neither side wants to admit that Israel is worse than any nation in the middle east (and not even a real country, we might as well refer to it as the 51st state for all the autonomy it has. Wait, states have more independence from the US government than Israel has.)

Your anger is justified, but point it in the right direction, Tzor.

[tzor]

LL - my anger and sadness has been covered up with a rather large emotional scab, which I would like people not to pick at. I certainly don't want that scab opened becasue I still have anger, not at the people who did the deed, but the morons around me who showed that they were both clueless and not dedicated to their principles (including the nun who was working with the parish who was surprised that we had people living in the neighborhood - only 60 miles from NYC - who might have been working near the twin towers or who might have died).

Count - Take your anti Israel BS elsewhere. Bin Laden wasn't driven by an anti Israel goal. The initial cause of his turning to the dark side was, ironically, a terrorist attack, or rather the government's reponse to that attack. That attack was the hostage taking at Grand Mosque in Mecca, Saudi Arabia in 1979, which turned him from loyalty to the King to a path of terrorism. The US - Saudi, ties doomed us, not the US - Israel ones.

[Lich-Loved]

Tzor -

My post was started before yours and was directed at the OP. I took a phone call and when I came back I hit submit, so it was posted after yours. My comment was not directed at you, I am sorry for your loss and I agree with your post completely.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Count - Take your anti Israel BS elsewhere. Bin Laden wasn't driven by an anti Israel goal. The initial cause of his turning to the dark side was, ironically, a terrorist attack, or rather the government's reponse to that attack. That attack was the hostage taking at Grand Mosque in Mecca, Saudi Arabia in 1979, which turned him from loyalty to the King to a path of terrorism. The US - Saudi, ties doomed us, not the US - Israel ones.

Tzor, please calm down. There is no need to be angry with me.

That being said, that is a good point. Saudi Arabia is a shitty place that we shouldn't have dealings with either. I feel that we're both right in this case.

[Kaelik]

You forgot your sadness and anger over the roughly 3000 people killed in the attack.

You forgot your sadness and anger over the billion people who have starved to death since those 3000 people died.

Oh wait, you didn't because you never cared about those people, just like I never cared about the people who died that day, because I don't fucking know them.

No one is obligated to feel bad about people they don't know dieing from something they couldn't prevent.

Shove your self righteousness up your ass sideways.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Sometimes, I forget my keys when I leave the house. It's hard to break into a second-story apartment.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Sometimes, I forget my keys when I leave the house. It's hard to break into a second-story apartment.

My friend's second story apartment was broken into last month. The burglars came in through an unlocked window (!).

[tzor]

LL: Oops, sorry then - Never mind

Count: I'm not angry, just multitasking which makes me a bit terse at times. It's that four letter work that I'm multitasking with that on occasion makes me angry.

Kaelik: I care. No really, I care.

[CatharzGodfoot]

So, yes, I am sick of you west coast irrational twits who were almost as far away from the terrorist attacks as were people in Europe. And fuck you for trying to open up this fucking wound. It’s over, Bush is gone. Get the fuck over it!

I'd just like to mention that the only people I know who were directly affected by 9/11 were west coast liberals who had friends/relatives/themselves worked part of the time in NYC. Not sure if that matters at all, but the West Coast is a lot closer to NYC than, say the Midwest or South is. Any yeah, it burns when people you know die to a foreign attack on the US, which is then used by your government as oblique justification to wage a war on an unrelated nation in which thousands more Americans die (not to mention how many thousand innocent Iraqis).

I'm not sure if that really has any bearing, but since we're all apparently ranting about 9/11...

[Lich-Loved]

You forgot your sadness and anger over the billion people who have starved to death since those 3000 people died.

You do realize that you just accused me of not caring about a billion deaths (not true, but I am going to roll with it) and then you thought anything you had to say would matter to me?

I, on the other hand, am pleased to see you pay attention to what I have to say while you ignore the deaths of 3000 people. It means I am important to you, and I feel better for that.

Thank you.

[Kaelik]

You do realize that you just accused me of not caring about a billion deaths (not true, but I am going to roll with it) and then you thought anything you had to say would matter to me?

I'm surprised you take it as an accusation. It be like complaining that I accused you of being American. It's probably true, may even not be, but either way, it's hardly an accusation.

The fact that you an Tzor like to pretend you care about starving people is pretty hilarious given your other proclivities.

I mean, you seem to own your own computer, so you obviously care more about your own personal internet connection than 2-3 people's lives.

Tzor. Fuck, Tzor explicitly wants poor people to die if they can't afford health care, I assume he was saying he cares about the 3000 because they are 'Merikans, since claiming to care about people dieing from Starvation would have to be a fucking joke, coming from him.

[Cynic]

tzor how many terrorist attacks happened on american soil before 9/11 in ratio to those that happened off american soil before 9/11?

That is a rather wasted statistic.

[IGTN]

No foreign terrorist attacks on US soil. That word is important. When the terrorist attacks on US soil go the other way and are perpetrated by domestic Christians, people like Tzor and Lich-loved don't count them, because they don't fit the narrative.

[Ganbare Gincun]

Oh please, cry me a river. Look, my next door neighbor died on 9/11 because he worked in the twin towers. My childhood friend and former neighbor didn’t die on 9/11 because he was working a few buildings down (but his building did get significant structural damage from the falling debris and he had to risk his life evacuating through that toxic cloud of twin tower dust).

I'm very sorry for your loss. That being said, it's unfortunate that we've spent all of this time, money, effort, and additional human lives invading countries that were completely unconnected to 9/11 instead of focusing on finding and apprehending Osama Bin Laden. The fact that we've gone ahead and sacrificed so many of our American ideals upon the altar of our misguided vengeance further compounds the tragedy of the situation.

In the mean time, there have been no major terrorist attacks on the US soil. NONE! Here is, by the way, the big list of all attacks since 9/11 with 100+ fatalities

So let me get this straight: by your standards, terrorism on American soil doesn't matter unless there are at least 100 people are killed in a single incident? The Anthrax attacks, the Washington Sniper, the military recruiter that was murdered in Arkansas - are all of these incidents meaningless? Hell, the Oklahoma City Bombing barely ranks as a "major terrorist attack" according to your criteria (168 people dead). I suspect you'd feel differently about the "ranking" of the terrorist attacks if your childhood friend died in one of those "minor incidents" instead of during 9/11.

But even if we did decide to play by your criteria, the vast majority of terrorist attacks on U.S. soil have had less then 100 deaths per event. By your logic, I could make the claim that Grover Cleveland handled terrorism better then both Bush and Clinton because only twelve people died during the Haymarket Affair in 1886 and had zero terrorist attacks on American soil during the second term of his Presidency. And guess what - he neither had to invade any countries OR roll back civil liberties to accomplish this feat!

So, yes, I am sick of you west coast irrational twits who were almost as far away from the terrorist attacks as were people in Europe. And fuck you for trying to open up this fucking wound. It’s over, Bush is gone. Get the fuck over it!

And we're sick of conservatives like yourself that can't come to terms with the fact that Bush betrayed the trust of the American public and spent his time squandering American lives and taxpayer funds so he could tear up the Middle East "playing army" while his friends made their fortunes by either engaging in war profiteering or sacking our economy. You're unwilling to admit to yourselves that you've been had by a rube that could barely string together a sentence in public, much less conduct a manhunt for an international terrorist. And even now as the grown-ups come in and try to clean up the mess that he's left behind, you guys are still going on trying to defend torture as a legitimate means of obtaining intelligence, bleating about how tax cuts are the solution, and acting like a bunch of spoiled children at town halls where people are trying to have a rational discussion about the future of our health care system. Do you guys even realize that 22,000 Americans die every year because they don't have access to medical care? We'll lose more American lives this year to our health care system then we did in 9/11 and eight years of war in the Middle East!

In any event, Conservatives are the ones that need to "get the fuck over yourselves". You guys lost the election and you ended up with a black President. Maybe that wouldn't have happened if your party wasn't completely devoid of ideas to improve the lives of average Americans and you had candidates with a little more going on upstairs then yelling about being a maverick and making dogwhistle appeals to white supremacists. You guys all need to turn off the Fox News and quit acting like a bunch of pathetic, whining fucks. Unless you live in a Red State, no one is going to take you seriously anyway - most people have figured out by now that both Conservatives and the mainstream media are in the pockets of wealthy Americans and are willing to use the media to lie about anything to advance their interests.

I certainly don't want that scab opened becasue I still have anger, not at the people who did the deed, but the morons around me who showed that they were both clueless and not dedicated to their principles (including the nun who was working with the parish who was surprised that we had people living in the neighborhood - only 60 miles from NYC - who might have been working near the twin towers or who might have died).

Oh god. Dare I even ask what this is about?

[PhoneLobster]

They also like to forget that several rather nasty potential terrorist attacks in America perpetrated by Americans have only been foiled by the bungles of their perpetrators. And the utter bungling of responses to them that seriously aren't doing shit to prevent the attacks from actually succeeding should the perpetrators stop shooting each other.

For instance the anthrax attacks that Bush specifically did NOT investigate and prosecute that were launched from American labs on democratic politicians. It was sheer good luck that those weren't really really bad. And similar good luck that the uninvestigated unprosecuted perpetrators just stopped doing it.

Or that mad white supremacist who was so angry with Obama being elected he was (successfully mind you) building dirty bombs in his kitchen preparing for a really REALLY nasty terrorist attack. He wasn't foiled by the government. There are suggestions he was on the god damn FBI payroll as an informant! He was foiled by his WIFE who after years of domestic abuse shot him dead in front of their 9 year old daughter during a domestic dispute. They only found the radioactive materials and explosives when she told them and they searched the place.

If James G Cummings were a left winger the right would have made a fucking straight to TV movie about the incident and sainted his battered widow by now.

[Crissa]

I knew a guy who died on 9/11. I met him the January of that year, and had hoped to see him again in two years. I've met people who have died since, still. They were sent to Iraq to die.

Fuck you too, tzor. What actually has happened which results in less dead people? Or don't dead soldiers and brown people count?

Apparently I'm only supposed to feel sadness for those who died on 9/11, not those who died in Iraq or Afghanistan or Spain or England or in November of 2001 because those weren't US civilians or killed in a big event.

That, and that we've done nothing to lower the number dying in these attacks. As in, the US has done nothing but antagonize, jail, and kill people pointlessly.

-Crissa

[Absentminded_Wizard]

Count: bin Laden's stated reason for hating the U.S. in 2001 was that we stationed soldiers in Saudi Arabia, the home of the Muslim holy cities of Mecca and Medina. He only started the anti-Israel rhetoric after being chased out of Afghanistan because it's a great way for a beleaguered figure to drum up sympathy among Arabs.

Several other people: What's this revisionist stuff about Afghanistan having nothing to do with 9/11? The government in power at the time did willingly harbor the organization that carried out the attacks, after all.

[IGTN]

Afghanistan provided al Qaeda, with, pretty much, room to put stuff and people. The Taliban didn't have the resources to do a whole lot else, and, really, Afghanistan big and mountainous, if you want to hide there you can pretty much just do that (as we've found out).

Saudi Arabia is where the hijackers came from, Saudi Arabia is where Bin Laden got his fortune from. But they're our oil dealer, so we can't make them do anything or they'll cut us off.

[Crissa]

The Afghani government at the time of the hijackings offered to do anything in its power to help the US.

The US refused. We didn't even try to arrest any of the guys in Afghanistan, we just bombed all the police and civil installations - as well as the temporary huts of the Al Qaeda training camps. The Afghani government literally did not have the military power or the laws to oust bin Laden. The replacement government still doesn't have the military power to oust the Taliban.

So yes, they had literally nothing to do with the bombings.

-Crissa

[PhoneLobster]

Count: bin Laden's stated reason for hating the U.S. in 2001 was that we stationed soldiers in Saudi Arabia, the home of the Muslim holy cities of Mecca and Medina. He only started the anti-Israel rhetoric after being chased out of Afghanistan because it's a great way for a beleaguered figure to drum up sympathy among Arabs.

Actually the guys involved may not have gone around saying "we do this for Palestine" but frankly without the outrage across the Arab world for American crimes in Israel and Iraq at the time they Bin Laden would have had about the same level of support as Tzor does around here. And he isn't getting suicide bombers to fly planes into my ISP any time soon.

Iraq sanctions and Israeli pogroms are the biggest fuel on this fire. The massive backing of the corrupt Saudi government certainly is adding fuel, but it primarily provides a lot of the cash not the motive to use it.

Just like the backing and creation of the despicable Taliban government BY the US (indeed basically by the neocon clique in their earlier careers) was certainly contributory to some degree, but really wasn't the big deal it's pretended to be.

[Heath Robinson]

Um, tzor, your argument in favour of wasteful expenditure of resources, the continued destruction of civil rights, and the general inconveniencing of travels is that somebody you know died?

You also appear to be trying to justify the TSA using the nonoccurence of a 9/11 scale event on American soil since 9/11. Umm, what the fuck? Did a 9/11 scale event occur before then? No? So your justification is a Regression Fallacy, then? Your personal perception of the risks jumped after 9/11, but actually it was still the same as before, even during 2001.

[tzor]

The Afghani government at the time of the hijackings offered to do anything in its power to help the US.

Bullshit! The timeline is important here, so let's look at the timeline.

September 20, 2001: Bush gives demands to Afghanistan.

The Taliban government responded through their embassy in Pakistan, asserting that there was no evidence in their possession linking bin Laden to the September 11 attacks. They also stressed that bin Laden was a guest in their country. Pashtun and Taliban codes of behavior require that guests be granted hospitality and asylum.

September 22, 2001, the United Arab Emirates, and on the following day, Saudi Arabia withdrew their recognition of the Taliban as the legal government of Afghanistan, leaving neighboring Pakistan as the only remaining country with diplomatic ties.

October 7, 2001, before the onset of military hostilities, the Taliban did offer to try bin Laden in Afghanistan in an Islamic court.

October 14, 2001, seven days into the U.S./British bombing campaign, the Taliban offered to surrender Osama bin Laden to a third country for trial, if the bombing halted and they were shown evidence of his involvement in the September 11 terrorist attacks.