Real Ultimate Power from Dual-Classing in a cRPG

[Lago PARANOIA]

Okay, since 2nd Edition D&D forms the majority of all RPG systems for cRPGs, I figure getting some real ultimate power is just the bee's knees.

I've heard that dual-classing in particular helps you open up a can of whupass, something like if there's a hard experience cap a fighter/bard punches you in the throat?

[Username17]

The dual classing rules in every edition of AD&D are completely incoherent. How they are implemented n cRPGs is pretty variable and is often only vaguely defensible as being based on the book writeup.

That being said, what Dual classing does is allow you to start over from level 1 in a new class where you get to keep your hit points and saves from your old class, and then when your new class exceeds your old class you get to retroactively get all your class features back from your old class.

So straight up basic obviousness is that when you start leveling up as a Fighter, the bonuses you get aren't actually class features by and large and don't go away. You are getting rapid low level advancement, a removal of the Con to hit point bonus cap, exceptional strength, and a large hit die. All that shit carries over to your new existence. You get to "struggle" through low level as a Wizard or Bard while being relatively resilient - so it's not much of a struggle.

Now we get into the strange shit. Weapon Proficiencies are not "class features" and even weapon specialization is not a class feature (although the ability to be able to buy it in the first place is). So technically you should be able to specialize your weapons and use what is therefore the Fighter attack routine with your damn Bard levels (because the Weapon Specialization attacks per level chart assumes you are a Fighter even though in this case you are not). Cuisinarticious. Implementation of this varies wildly in actual games. For example: in Torment, when you become a Wizard you get to keep the Weapon Specialization bonus to-hit and damage but you have to use "Wizard Weapons" so you end up being a brutal dagger killer and all swords in that game are a joke.

And then there's the fact that you haven't lost your old class features, you just don't gain any XP in your new class if you use features of your old class before the new class hits the level of the old class (or maybe exceeds it, precision wasn't a strong point with the AD&D authors). So if there's an XP cap you should be able to just got nuts as what is effectively a multiclass character who gets to grab the best hit dice of any classes instead of having to split the diff. Further, you can use all your class features in down time when you weren't gaining XP anyway. And the rules are unclear, but you can make a case that once your new class hits the level of the old class, that you can switch back and forth main classes freely, allowing you to get the best of both worlds by just declaring your dual classing intentions at level 2 (and then always grabbing a Fighter level first as you alternate). Implementation on these points is spotty at best.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

Okay, how does dual-classing work with kits? Can I grab two kits?

[Judging__Eagle]

Probably yes.

Kits replaced your class; now you're a Gladiator/Assassin/Holy Avenger/War-Wizard, welcome to Crazy Town.

[Orion]

In the actual 2nd ed. rules, you could only have one kit. if you dual-classed out of a kit you couldn't dual-class into one. I believe though I'm not certain, that you could dual-class into a kit if you didn't start with one.

In Baldur's Gate Two you could dual-class out of a kit, but I don't think you were allowed to dual-class into a kit no matter what.

[ThinkWriteMute]

Does 2E really take up the majority?

Dungeons & Dragons Online: Stormreach (3.5e)
Temple of Elemental Evil (3.5e)
Neverwinter Nights II (3.5e)
- Mask of the Betrayer
- Storm of Zehir
- Mysteries of Westgate
Neverwinter Nights (3.0e)
- Shadows of Undrentide
- Hordes of the Underdark
- Kingmaker
- Shadowguard
- Pirates of the Sword Coast (3.5ish)
Icewind Dale II (3.0e)
Pool of Radiance (3.0e)

Heart of Winter and Shadow of Amn were both mixed 2e/3e.

Might be able to fit Dungeons & Dragons Tactics in there, since it was strictly 3.5e

8 (Or 16 if you count expansions) vs...what? 4? 6? Remember, Baulder's Gate was the first successful D&D2e game. I'm seeing 4 (6 with expansions).

[Kaelik]

Shadows of Amn and Heart of Winter, the expansion packs, were both 2e not 3.

Baldur's gate/Baldur's Gate II

Icewind Dale 1/Torment

All 2e.

Neverwinter Nights 1&2

Icewind Dale II/Temple of Elemental Evil

None of the hundred or so others sold well enough or played well enough to count.

About even.

[Username17]

In the actual 2nd ed. rules, you could only have one kit.

You are thinking of the multiclass rules. The Dual Class rules were more incoherent than that. Because you sort of didn't have the class you gave up while you were advancing the new class, and the kit restrictions were written up differently in every "Complete" book. So you could make a very valid argument that you could dual class from Cavalier to Swashbuckler.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

According to wikipedia, there are almost 50 2nd Edition games and not even 20 3rd Edition games.

And this is covering all of the Neverwinter Nights expansion backs. If we take out expansion packs, there are about 40 2nd Edition games and 11 3E games.

So yeah, a ton more 2nd Edition games. This isn't even getting into bullshit spinoffs that so badly want to be 2nd edition but can't use the name, like Wizardry and Realms of Arkania.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Anyway, what are the advantages of multiclassing over dual-classing, in both the actual D&D rules-set and in, say, Baldur's Gate?

[Username17]

Anyway, what are the advantages of multiclassing over dual-classing, in both the actual D&D rules-set and in, say, Baldur's Gate?

You get to be the most awesome first level character that ever lived.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

What, did fighter/thief/cleric levels become undervalued after a certain point?

[Username17]

What, did fighter/thief/cleric levels become undervalued after a certain point?

As a multiclassed character you have to split your XP evenly, which is bad because different classes live on different XP charts. After a while, Magic Users gain levels faster than Fighters. Also, you have to split the difference between the hit points of your different classes, which is also bad.

On the other hand, you do get to use all the class features of all your classes immediately. And since all classes get the first level for 0 XP, the XP splitting thing doesn't become an issue until later. So at first level, you have more power than anyone else in exchange for having a slower advancement schedule that isn't going to matter for a few adventures.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

So what was the point of multiclassing anyway?

I understand experience was much more parabolic in 2nd Edition, which means that for 60,000 experience a mage/fighter wouldn't be that far behing a mage as you think, but how far behind were you on your mojo compared to a single or dual-class character? Was there any benefit to be had from mixing and matching spells from, say, a cleric/mage?

After all, having 5th level cleric and mage spells don't sound so bad compared to just having 6th level mage spells.

[Kobajagrande]

So yeah, a ton more 2nd Edition games. This isn't even getting into bullshit spinoffs that so badly want to be 2nd edition but can't use the name, like Wizardry and Realms of Arkania.

Pretty sure Realms of Arkania was based on Das Schwarze Auge.

[Orion]

My experience was that Multi-classing was way more effective than being single-classed, although that varied by exact ruleset since access to things like weapon specialization to wizard school specialization was often cut off.

[DeadlyReed]

Multi-classing was pretty good and got better over time since level limits gradually increased (in UA and 2E) and multi-class kits were eventually introduced (in the 2E Complete Handbook series).

Also, being single-classed didn't make you significantly higher in level than your multi-class counterparts. For instance, in 1E, for one hundred thousand experience points, you could either be a 8th level magic-user (lol), a 7th level fighter, or a 6th level fighter/6th level magic-user.

[K]

The reason you multi- or dual-classed in cRPgs was for synergy.

Take Baldur's Gate 1 or 2: you can be a Fighter/Mage/Thief and run around sneak attacking with your 18/00 strength and there isn't an enemy in the game that can take more than one or two before exploding into chunks (and Invis from your Wizard levels for when there isn't anything to hide behind to turn on Hide). This is because 2e sneak attack was a flat multiplier to damage, and exceptional Strength gave crazy extra damage past 18 and only Fighters got that. Add them together and you were doing crazy damage. Add in the extra loot from being a Thief and the ability to disarm traps and the fact that you got to use all the best items instead of splitting them between six characters and you literally became the perfect adventurer.

You didn't worry about XP because in 2e XP was flat per monster so you could solo a pile and max out your levels super fast and just be more powerful for your encounters than you were supposed to be, and at the high end your synergy was so strong you didn't need a party.

Trust me when I say "the synergy was there". I personally used one character to beat every battle in both games and they expected you to use a six-man party.

Ps. All the complete books had a rule where you couldn't take a kit if you were dual-class, but some allowed you to if you were multi-class. They were also rock solid on only one kit.

[Lago PARANOIA]

So yeah, a ton more 2nd Edition games. This isn't even getting into bullshit spinoffs that so badly want to be 2nd edition but can't use the name, like Wizardry and Realms of Arkania.

Pretty sure Realms of Arkania was based on Das Schwarze Auge.

Adventuria The Dark Eye is a pretty blatant D&D aper in many respects, though, at least the edition the games used. I don't think it's enough to accuse the games of copying or ripping off D&D, but you can definitely see the influence.

[Murtak]

Adventuria The Dark Eye is a pretty blatant D&D aper in many respects, though, at least the edition the games used. I don't think it's enough to accuse the games of copying or ripping off D&D, but you can definitely see the influence.

Except the class system, race system, skill system, magic system, combat system and level system you mean? Sure, they both have levels, elves and spells and are supposedly set in a pseudo-medieval fantasy world. I suppose they are closer than DnD and GURPS are ...

[Username17]

Ps. All the complete books had a rule where you couldn't take a kit if you were dual-class, but some allowed you to if you were multi-class. They were also rock solid on only one kit.

Keep in mind that it has been more than ten years. But as I recall, there was some bullshit to be pulled based on how some of the complete books set up the restriction that you couldn't Dual Class out of a kit, and others set up the restriction that you couldn't dual class into a kit. Thus if you took them in the right order you were still good.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

Adventuria The Dark Eye is a pretty blatant D&D aper in many respects, though, at least the edition the games used. I don't think it's enough to accuse the games of copying or ripping off D&D, but you can definitely see the influence.

Except the class system, race system, skill system, magic system, combat system and level system you mean? Sure, they both have levels, elves and spells and are supposedly set in a pseudo-medieval fantasy world. I suppose they are closer than DnD and GURPS are ...

The class/race system where humans have a variety of occupations and races like wood/ice/sylvan elves and dwarves are their own 'class'? That's totally D&D.

The Dark Eye videro james don't imitate enough elements from D&D for anyone to think that it's a ripoff. But it does have some very key similarities to it. It's like if you play the first Final Fantasy... you can clearly see where the game was getting D&D elements from in a more-than superficial way even though it's a very different game.

[Korwin]

Ah you are talking about first Edition D&D (and DSA?). Dont know much of that.


In the current DSA-Edition you have a Race, a Culture, a Profession...

[Lago PARANOIA]

You know what? I purchased a copy of the current Fanpro/TDE from DriveThruRPG.com but never downloaded it. I guess I'll have to check it out.

But the DSA that the Realms of Arkania games used definitely had the 1E D&D-throwback race/class system.

PhoneLobster has played the games much more recently than I have (I last played Shadows Over Riva 12 years ago) and has even played the newest Drakensang game even though he wrote a very disparaging review of it. He can probably note a lot more details.

[Korwin]

Dont know that game.
But yeah I remember dimly that Elf was a "class" in earlier DSA versions.

But please read the DSA rulebook. I'm waiting for an rant
DSA 4 in comparrision with D&D 3.X makes it (D&D 3.X) an shining example of game balance.

I thought about writing one myself, but I would need to reread the rules and I dont want to do that

cu