Saving the world at 1st level, and other things I want.

K · Post by K » Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:47 am

Ok, everyone once in a while I go peek at Paizo. I like the current crop of artists, and I laugh a little when I see the mess of things they have made.

One thing struck me while I was looking at their plots that they need people to write adventures for: they don't want low level characters to save the world.

OK, so I agree with the basic premise that level-based games are "heroic arc simulators" that mirror the basic Joseph Campbell hero myth story. The guy that fights and kills an orc when he escapes his burning village is supposed to find a magic sword and a mentor and test himself against challenges and eventually wade into a army of orcs and save the nation, and levels are just a way to force that to happen.

Ok, I accept that.

But saving the world? That crap can happen at 1st level. I mean, take Lord of the Rings. LotR has the world getting saved without any major battles being fought by the actual heroes.... in fact, the heroes only accomplishment is that they avoid all the real battles being fought. The story ends when the deus ex machina device is tossed into an unguarded volcano.

And if the characters were a higher level, there might be a climatic fight vs some Wraiths or even Sauron or Saruman. Instead, you get a series of massive battles where the heroes kill a few mooks for XP and the one finishes his solo mission to finish the plot.

That's seriously low-level stuff there, and the world gets saved.

And just because you saved the world today doesn't mean that tomorrow that something worse won't happen. Or that you can't travel to a different world and save that one, or any number of meaningful things that can happen. Fantasy literature is ripe with the simple premise that characters that the fans love get more books where they get to have more adventures.... see Wheel of Time.

I think MMOs have tainted the RPG story. I mean, I don't ever want to kill rats outside town for XP grinding, but I accept that at 1st level I fight against one werewolf and that's high adventure and at 5th level I fight against a pack and that's high adventure and at 10th I fight the Wolf Lord and at 20th the God of the Forest is fought in the extraplanar Forest of Black Thorns.

But none of that limits the story. The story can be as grand as all get out where I'm stopping the werewolfs from releasing the Lupus Stone into the world, but as my level goes up I need fewer deus ex machina to help the plot along and I can actually just punch the villain in the face.

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:19 am

It can make things anticlimactic though. If you already saved the world at 1st level, then getting rid of a corrupt duke several adventures later feels a little petty. But on the other hand, if you keep upping the ante, it gets ridiculous. By 10th level you'd need to be saving the entire dimensional manifold encompassing all possible planes, or something.

And honestly, I'm not a huge fan of the "Forces vastly more powerful than you are battling it out, so perfectly balanced that neither side can take the one minute to squash you like a bug or send you instantly to your goal. So just take this McGuffin you can't hope to understand, and use it to stop the ritual you couldn't hope to affect on your own." plot. Maybe once in a while, but as the staple of low-level play? No thanks.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:30 am

Ice9 wrote: I'm not a huge fan of the "Forces vastly more powerful than you are battling it out, so perfectly balanced that neither side can take the one minute to squash you like a bug or send you instantly to your goal. So just take this McGuffin

Have the rules system front load stealth abilities. Then have the story give out villain foiling (if they can be delivered) mcguffins by the dozen in level 1 junior hero happy meals.

Maybe once in a while, but as the staple of low-level play? No thanks.

I'm sure there are lots of ways to contribute to important and exciting things with differing story set ups. Stealth Mcguffin delivery team presumably isn't the only game you play over and over before you reach 5th level or whatever.

Or maybe you do and it's the McGuffin Ninja Delivery Service Campaign or something. Whatever

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:13 pm

Ice9 wrote:It can make things anticlimactic though. If you already saved the world at 1st level, then getting rid of a corrupt duke several adventures later feels a little petty. But on the other hand, if you keep upping the ante, it gets ridiculous. By 10th level you'd need to be saving the entire dimensional manifold encompassing all possible planes, or something.

I guess I would think that if you saved the world at level 1, it might be best to end the campaign, otherwise you're right: it probably would get stale. The last thing you want is to have to save the world two or three more times. Pretty soon, it's like the 3rd or 4th season of Heroes, or something.

violence in the media · Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:17 pm

Why do you have to shoot straight to saving the world at level 1? Is saving your village or town just not heroic enough? Like Ice9 was saying, what do you do after that? Where do you think the dividing line between the PCs taking orders versus calling the shots should be?

Speaking of level 1 though, I really dislike it as a starting point. Only because there isn't much space below it. Ideally, I'd like the default starting point to be level 3 or 5, with the ability to play level 1 games if you want to explicitly acknowledge that you're playing apprentices, schoolchildren, noobs, etc.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:18 pm

Ice9 wrote: And honestly, I'm not a huge fan of the "Forces vastly more powerful than you are battling it out, so perfectly balanced that neither side can take the one minute to squash you like a bug or send you instantly to your goal. So just take this McGuffin you can't hope to understand, and use it to stop the ritual you couldn't hope to affect on your own." plot. Maybe once in a while, but as the staple of low-level play? No thanks.

You can always alternate it with the other popular trope: "You can't farm this important job off to someone more qualified because you're the arbitrarily-picked Chosen One, so hop on board the plot choo-choo and ride this railroad to the end of the line."

Murtak · Post by **Murtak** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:30 pm

K wrote:I think MMOs have tainted the RPG story. I mean, I don't ever want to kill rats outside town for XP grinding, but I accept that at 1st level I fight against one werewolf and that's high adventure and at 5th level I fight against a pack and that's high adventure and at 10th I fight the Wolf Lord and at 20th the God of the Forest is fought in the extraplanar Forest of Black Thorns.

I doubt it. I remember DnD and DSA modules for low levels and you weer up against goblins and yes, sometimes rats. If anything MMOs are tainted by tabletop games.

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:13 pm

Simply put, the problem with the generic “save the world at 1st level” is that it almost always puts the character as a cog in a greater wheel and not be the wheel itself. I’m not saying that it’s not possible, only that it can be easily done badly.

The good (if you would want to call it that; I know I generally liked it) would be a Nehwon type campaign world where Ningauble of the Seven Eyes and/or Sheelba of the Eyeless Face send “heroes” on the most strangest of missions that all have earth shattering consequences. It works in Nehwon because the driving NPCS have as many limitations as they have powers.

The bad would be Elminster (enough said).

In spite of the fact that LotR is a great novel, it makes a horrid adventure arc. Saving the world takes place at the end and ironically has nothing to do with the adventure arc. The two protagonists manage to avoid most of the major later encounters of the adventure in their own side quest.

Saving the world at 1st level is not all that exciting. Saving the village/town at first level and in so doing putting into motion a chain of events that cause you to save the world at some higher level, so you can look back at 1st level and say “remember when we did that … who knew it was so important” is priceless.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:38 pm

It's best if you can start things off with the traditional "We're out of ale! Can you get a barrel from the next town? There may be goblins along the way." and somehow have that wind into an epic tale where they save the world, and it can all be traced back to the tavern.

Bonus points if they look back upon it all (sitting astride their celestial mounts, sprouting giant wings and clad in armour made out of Universe) in that very same tavern.

Even more points if they never returned the ale in the first place, so only now after saving the world do they hand over the barrel they've been carting around for 19 levels (or the game ends on the hilarious note of "What? You didn't get it? I've been waiting all this time for nothing? You send them on a SIMPLE quest...")

Taleran · Post by **Taleran** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:56 pm

Look at 'world' as relative and it can make it easier

at lower levels your 'world' might be the town you grew up in so saving that place from some threat would be not only possible but also realistic

and as your character levels their world view grows also making the challenges greater

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:02 pm

Judging just by what people have said so far, your observation is validated K. People don't want low level characters to save the world. In a way, they want their ability to influence the world directly proportional to their ability to fight the world.

Sunwitch · Post by **Sunwitch** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:04 pm

That's a complete diversion. The "world" fairly objectively in this context refers to the entirety of the setting, whether that be Midgard, Greyhawk, Eberron, etc.

I'm really not a big fan of the idea of 1st-level adventurers "saving the world", at least not within the context of D&D. D&D is a kind of game where people are expecting their characters to advance and become more powerful and heroic over time, while fighting challenges and whatever else while earning concrete rewards. Being non-confrontational and not killing stuff on your way to the volcano to get rid of the McGuffin isn't normally the focus. Other games where you actually try to avoid combat, whether because it's more deadly or just not a good idea, such as GURPS, might work better. Besides, there's not a whole lot you can do with a level 1 character to make it particularly unique. These all seem like things D&D is just about.

Maj · Post by **Maj** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:40 pm

Ice9 wrote:It can make things anticlimactic though. If you already saved the world at 1st level, then getting rid of a corrupt duke several adventures later feels a little petty.

I would have thought that, too. But the last game I participated in did the whole world-saving thing, and as a reward, the characters got their castle and lands to settle down. Then the game got all court-intrigue and RISKy and the whole notion of needing a bigger and better force out there to defeat was entirely lost in the intricacies of conquer and outmaneuvering.

I was pleasantly surprised.

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:13 pm

Koumei wrote:It's best if you can start things off with the traditional "We're out of ale! Can you get a barrel from the next town? There may be goblins along the way." and somehow have that wind into an epic tale where they save the world, and it can all be traced back to the tavern.

My favorite "first adventure" for Lankhmar literally was an inverted variation of the above which was derived from one of the supplements. Basically the barkeep says, "I've got this cast of very rare and expensive wine and tomorrow I'm going to sell samples of it for a big fortune. Unfortunately, I didn't pay the various bribes and taxes on it and I'm not in the expensive wine sellers guild so I need someone to watch this overnight to make sure no one comes in and destroys it." Basically the thieves guild tries to burn down the inn throughout the night. In the morning, if they stick around after they are paid, there is an assassination attempt on the overlord.

endersdouble · Post by **endersdouble** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:36 pm

tzor wrote:
Koumei wrote:It's best if you can start things off with the traditional "We're out of ale! Can you get a barrel from the next town? There may be goblins along the way." and somehow have that wind into an epic tale where they save the world, and it can all be traced back to the tavern.
My favorite "first adventure" for Lankhmar literally was an inverted variation of the above which was derived from one of the supplements. Basically the barkeep says, "I've got this cast of very rare and expensive wine and tomorrow I'm going to sell samples of it for a big fortune. Unfortunately, I didn't pay the various bribes and taxes on it and I'm not in the expensive wine sellers guild so I need someone to watch this overnight to make sure no one comes in and destroys it." Basically the thieves guild tries to burn down the inn throughout the night. In the morning, if they stick around after they are paid, there is an assassination attempt on the overlord.

So....Assault On Ye Old Precinct 13?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:48 pm

An example of low level characters saving the world and then going on to still do great, exciting things occured to me. And I hate to say it, but:
The movies Chicken Little and Jimmy Neutron.

Both revolve around just some kid and his friends/robot dog completely coincidentally stumbling upon a plot of earth shattering importance, and through, basically, sheer dumb luck, they manage to save the world.

Jimmy goes on to have a series, and Chicken Little is shown in the movie to go on to be a space action hero (I think, can't remember if that was just the "movie trailer within a movie" or was also shown to be what happened to him in the future)

K · Post by K » Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:47 pm

RobbyPants wrote:
Ice9 wrote:It can make things anticlimactic though. If you already saved the world at 1st level, then getting rid of a corrupt duke several adventures later feels a little petty. But on the other hand, if you keep upping the ante, it gets ridiculous. By 10th level you'd need to be saving the entire dimensional manifold encompassing all possible planes, or something.
I guess I would think that if you saved the world at level 1, it might be best to end the campaign, otherwise you're right: it probably would get stale. The last thing you want is to have to save the world two or three more times. Pretty soon, it's like the 3rd or 4th season of Heroes, or something.

Yeh, but an RPG is like Heroes. Players are expected to play the same characters in the same setting over and over.

The two ways to go are:

1. The Hollywood Movie Method: each new adventure is bigger and badder with more sex and violence. As a game, this means the campaign starts at where you kill rats for XP and take missions where you carry a package to another town, and at the end of the campaign you actually get to affect the campaign world in any meaningful way and then you end the campaign shortly after.

2. The TV Serial Method: the world is threatened every season and the threats get bigger or smaller, but every year the heroes save the world. As a game, you get to affect the campaign world in meaningful ways and as character power increases those changes become more pronounced.

I'm a fan of the second, as you can imagine. As a model for a team of PCs, I like shows like Supernatural, Buffy/Angel, and Teen Titans. Even Hercules/Zena, Star Trek, and Babylon 5 follow this model, with Star Trek's final episode verbalizing the sentiment that "the trial never ends."

The biggest reason I enjoy the second is because you actually get to enjoy the rewards of saving the world. I mean, I can't tell you how many published campaigns hand out crazy crap the last few adventures with the assumption that you'll stop playing the game soon after. Its a tragic joke that there are "capstone" abilities on classes that get used for half an adventure and that the castle/kingdom/plane you get at the end of the final adventure never gets played with.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:22 am

K wrote: I'm a fan of the second, as you can imagine. As a model for a team of PCs, I like shows like Supernatural, Buffy/Angel, and Teen Titans. Even Hercules/Zena, Star Trek, and Babylon 5 follow this model, with Star Trek's final episode verbalizing the sentiment that "the trial never ends."

All of those would be extremely lousy to model with a level-based game like D&D, though. Captain Kirk doesn't go from dying in one phaser blast in Episode One to bouncing photon torpedoes off his pecs in Episode Seventy.

For a game where the PCs abilities remain mostly static with a slight progression over time, it makes sense for their challenges to be mostly static as well (whether that's saving the world or not, it doesn't matter).

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:33 am

hogarth wrote: All of those would be extremely lousy to model with a level-based game like D&D, though. Captain Kirk doesn't go from dying in one phaser blast in Episode One to bouncing photon torpedoes off his pecs in Episode Seventy.

Honestly I can't think of many TV series or movies where that happens. In general, heroes don't get that much dramatically better. Occasionally theres some kind of transformation like Neo becoming the One, or Peter Parker getting bitten by a radioactive spider, but it's rare to see a gradual accumulation.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:02 am

Anime tends to do it. Whether it's Sailor Moon's 4E style (at the beginning of, say, season S the monsters are too powerful for her and they even break her transformation item. Luna then pulls a new transformation brooch out of her arse and she becomes Sailor Moon Mk II who suddenly CAN fight the monsters. She also gets a new special attack that beats them. But it all plays out the same.) or Mecha ones where they start off fighting small fleets and end up deflecting Universe-Destroyer laser blasts and wiping out Galaxy-sized squadrons of mecha.

Or Hellsing, which starts with killing fake vampires and ends with killing a Death God or something.

K · Post by K » Wed Oct 14, 2009 6:46 am

hogarth wrote:
K wrote: I'm a fan of the second, as you can imagine. As a model for a team of PCs, I like shows like Supernatural, Buffy/Angel, and Teen Titans. Even Hercules/Zena, Star Trek, and Babylon 5 follow this model, with Star Trek's final episode verbalizing the sentiment that "the trial never ends."
All of those would be extremely lousy to model with a level-based game like D&D, though. Captain Kirk doesn't go from dying in one phaser blast in Episode One to bouncing photon torpedoes off his pecs in Episode Seventy.

For a game where the PCs abilities remain mostly static with a slight progression over time, it makes sense for their challenges to be mostly static as well (whether that's saving the world or not, it doesn't matter).

Well, sci-fi as a trope powers people up with their ability to use technology, so the Borg Cube that destroys the entire fleet in one season ends up being a horde monster in another season. XP gets spent on upgrading the ship as much as the individual character.

Character advancement is just more ability to use the ship. In TNG, Jordie goes from pilot to engineer to chief engineer, Wesley goes from precocious kid to pilot to Savant-engineer, Troy goes from counselor to empathic master to officer, Picard goes from captain to explorer supreme.... basically every character gets more stuff to solve problems since problems and not combat are the basis of Star Trek shows. The original star Trek would have done the same, but they didn't stay on the air long enough.

Buffy has Willow learning more and more magic until she gets the ability to destroy the world and Buffy kills more badass stuff starting with The Master vampire and ending with the primal incarnations of vampireness with a god in between for kicks.... Supernatural has the Winchesters going from simple ghosts and ghoulies to killing unkillable demons from the beginning of time with demon mind powers and a artifact gun.... so yeh, if you look closer all the shows I cited have the characters advancing in power in the trope they are in.

Hercules/Zena is the closest model, and they go through various power-ups through there careers where villains in the beginning are centaurs and by the end the heroes are bashing dark gods on a regular basis, and do it so often they actually have to travel around to find new pantheons to kick around.

The truly rare thing is the "complete character replacement" such as when a character suddenly goes from being a minor character to a major one. Off the top of my head, I can cite in Angel when Fred gets eaten by a dark god and becomes Illyria and changes her schtick around, but that's just a movement from one kind of plot advancing power (investigation) to another (face-punching).

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:22 pm

K wrote: Well, sci-fi as a trope powers people up with their ability to use technology, so the Borg Cube that destroys the entire fleet in one season ends up being a horde monster in another season. XP gets spent on upgrading the ship as much as the individual character.

As pointed out above by RC, this is really development by quantum leap, not gradual development, and you rarely get more than two or three jumps over the course of a TV series (anime excepted, maybe). I've never seen a TV series/book series/movie series with 19 small, distinct jumps in power; that'd be ridiculous. It's a good thing that TV/books/movies aren't based around the D&D incremental "leveling up" paradigm; that's a feature, not a bug.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 6:21 pm

hogarth wrote:
K wrote: Well, sci-fi as a trope powers people up with their ability to use technology, so the Borg Cube that destroys the entire fleet in one season ends up being a horde monster in another season. XP gets spent on upgrading the ship as much as the individual character.
As pointed out above by RC, this is really development by quantum leap, not gradual development, and you rarely get more than two or three jumps over the course of a TV series (anime excepted, maybe). I've never seen a TV series/book series/movie series with 19 small, distinct jumps in power; that'd be ridiculous. It's a good thing that TV/books/movies aren't based around the D&D incremental "leveling up" paradigm; that's a feature, not a bug.

I definitely disagree. I mean, you were just talking about Star Trek, right? Next Gen involves a minor advancement to the ship or starfleet's capabilities every couple of shows for its entire 170+ episode run.

If you part it out, they seriously get measurable advancement like 50+ times.

-Username17

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 6:52 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:I definitely disagree. I mean, you were just talking about Star Trek, right? Next Gen involves a minor advancement to the ship or starfleet's capabilities every couple of shows for its entire 170+ episode run.

Yes and no, but the whole BORG thing is doubly complex to begin with as it involves both an increase in power and a major nerf of the opponent. In the first BORG cube encounter a single cube was a TPK of the entire Federation Fleet and took a plot hook on the order of dues ex machina (to sleep, perchance to self destruct) to resolve. By the time you get to the NG movies, Star Fleet can now handle BORG threats and the BORG resorts to time wars.

The weaponry system advances in that short period of time are massive; they don’t appear that way because these advances are designed not to increase firepower but to combat active defenses. Most of these advances didn’t show up until the renewal of the BORG episodes because they weren’t needed in the other plots and suddenly they were needed in the plots because they didn’t want another déjà vu of near TPK again.

(That was one reason why they nerfed the BORG to make them more human. The original BORG was a fully distributed processing system; no central “queen” no sentient being with ulterior motives; just a group being with general directives and a group mind that allowed them to rapidly adapt to all conditions. The BORG were sort of like a volcano or an exploding star; guaranteed destruction but neither good nor evil.)

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:10 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:I definitely disagree. I mean, you were just talking about Star Trek, right? Next Gen involves a minor advancement to the ship or starfleet's capabilities every couple of shows for its entire 170+ episode run.

If you part it out, they seriously get measurable advancement like 50+ times.

If you're talking about one-shot gimmicks, each of which fix exactly one (1) problem and then are never seen or heard from again, then that number sounds correct.

The Gaming Den

Saving the world at 1st level, and other things I want.

Saving the world at 1st level, and other things I want.

Re: Saving the world at 1st level, and other things I want.