Shadowrun 4e newbie questions

[Stahlseele]

No System is perfect.
But systems should not need such complete rewrites like frank did for the matrix.
Well, Magic Minutes gets a whole nother meaning if you remember that you can go several hundred miles per hour fast on the astral . .

[Username17]

The thing to remember was that the Magic Attribute used to be pretty lame. That is, it didn't add to your dicepool to cast spells or summon spirits, it just acted like a limiter on spells. And since then as now it wasn't really that great of an idea to cast/summon past Force 6 anyway, the increases in Magic Attribute that initiation came with were pretty much pointless. People started at Magic 6, and every Initiation came with an additional Magic point - which was in turn almost completely pointless for Magicians. Some of them took their Initiations and sold the magic point off to get cyberware, others just let the Magic Attribute accumulate in puzzlement. Neither was really the right or wrong answer.

But Adepts got get power points that were every bit as useful as the power points they started with. It was like they were buying more Essence worth of cybernetic mods. So Adepts got more from an Initiation grade than a Mage did. And so they were given a shittier list of metamagics to compensate for that.

In SR4, Magicians get real dice pool bonuses for increasing their Magic, so the fact that Adepts get worse Metamagics because of legacy effects is a problem. A problem that makes Adepts feel a bit small in the pants.

-Username17

[Windjammer]

Yeah pretty much. ... In general, you could just ignore the errata entirely and you'd do fine. Do you honestly give a fuck what gods some dude thinks converts to what Totem? Fuck no!

Thanks for answering my question. I'm less interested in the cosmetic touches to the correlations of totems and pantheon entries than in the fine-tunings of other mechanics. But yes, if these basically cover all that whoever was responsible for the reprint thought ought to be addressed, I guess I'm fine not worrying about having the 2008 print.

Not many problems are actually addressed. Astral Sight is still worthless, Aspected Magicians still unplayable, Toxic Traditions are still incomplete, and Bloodzilla will still eat your fucking city.

Hey, I picked up your houserules and plan to implement them. That should get rid of any problems with Astral Sight and (the original) Aspected Magicians.

And, in other news, as of today I'm the proud owner of #1169 of the the Limited Edition.

[Archmage]

So something came up during our SR game today that officially really confuses me: Spirit movement.

Spirits have stat blocks that give movement speeds; presumably these are "when manifesting." Normally, spirits exist on the astral. What are their movement rates there? Are they the same as an astrally-projecting magician?

And why the hell is it that basically all spirits have Force x2 astral initiative but Force x3-5 regular initiative? Why are they faster when they manifest than when they're in astral form? Do I totally misunderstand this?

[Quantumboost]

And why the hell is it that basically all spirits have Force x2 astral initiative but Force x3-5 regular initiative? Why are they faster when they manifest than when they're in astral form? Do I totally misunderstand this?

You're probably misreading it. A spirit's Initiative score when Materialized, like all physical beings, is its Intuition plus its Reaction. Since Reaction on the Astral is replaced by Intuition, it gets twice Intuition as its Astral Initiative.

A Spirit of Man is listed as having an Initiative of (F*2)+2. You multiply the force by two, and add two to that. That's identical to figuring out its Intuition (Force) and materialized Reaction (Force + 2) separately, then adding them.

So yes, a materialized spirit has more Initiative when Materialized (because its Reaction is higher than its Intuition), but it's only by 2-4 points, and it gets an extra pass on the Astral.

[Archmage]

What the hell?

I have two hardcopies of the SR4 book (not the Anniversary edition). One of them, which is presumably older, lists a spirit of air as having an initiative of Force x 5. But this copy lists init as (Force x 2) + 3, which is considerably more logical (in addition to not being batshit insane and making high Force spirits faster than everything ever).

That must've gotten errata or something and I have two different print runs of the core book. Now I kind of want to go through here and see what else is different.

[Username17]

Old nomenclature from SR3 gave critters a "running multiplier" and for spirits they just left that shit in for the initial printing, even though it didn't mean anything anymore. That was a simple typographical error.

-Username17

[Lokathor]

Question, if a Magician wants to spend the BP to learn it "twice" (6BP), can a mage learn both a limited and normal version of a spell?

[Username17]

Question, if a Magician wants to spend the BP to learn it "twice" (6BP), can a mage learn both a limited and normal version of a spell?

Yes.

Usually a better plan to learn a limited form of one spell and an unlimited form of a similar spell though. Unlimited Stun Bolt, Limited Mana Ball, that sort of thing.

-Username17

[Lokathor]

At the moment my Limited spells are Astral Armor and Increase Reflexes, and I was wondering if I could ever learn them in unlimited form at some later point.

Also, what's up with Foci? You buy them and pay for one of a specific force, then you bind it at that force. Can you later not increase the force, or can you pay the difference to have it dipped in even more rare materials and then pay the difference in BP, or do you just buy a super expensive one and then not bind it all the way, or what?

Are Foci just intended to be completely non-incremental?

[Username17]

You can enchant foci up in value for the difference in cost. But it's pretty tie consuming. If you want to just spend your Special K and have a bigger focus, you have to start over with a new one. That, and most types of Foci are basically worthless. Mostly, people get Power Foci, and sometimes a very specialized character will invest in a Weapon Focus. That's about it.

If it were up to me, there would be big changes in the way magic items worked. But of course, it is not and will never be.

-Username17

[Lokathor]

I'd imagine myself wanting a Power Focus, Weapon Focus, Centering Focus, and perhaps a Sustaining Focus. Though I could probably bind a Spirit of Man to cast and sustain a spell for me, it's nice to have that flexibility. Or maybe two. But that'd take up all 5 of your focuses that you could each have equal to your magic score. This all of course assumes that I'd have all sorts of spare cash and BP for these things, which I wouldn't really. So it's kinda silly.

More practically, just a Power Focus would probably be cool, but I'd rather Initiate twice quickly and get Flexible Signature and Centering.

[Stahlseele]

Summoning Focus would be usefull for getting really big spirits.
Then they do everything a focus can do and more and better . .

[Username17]

Summoning Focus would be usefull for getting really big spirits.
Then they do everything a focus can do and more and better . .

But Summoning Foci suck monkey ass. A Summoning Focus adds just to Summoning tests and just when summoning one of your five spirit types. You get the same bonus from a Power Focus, but it also adds to spellcasting, and binding, and works on all five of your spirits. It's seriously like 10 times as good and nowhere near ten times the cost.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

Frank, using just Street Magic and the Shadowrun core book, what metamagic would you pick up for a materialization and possession mage, respectively? If there's a difference in the number and order of metamagic you would pick up depending on whether you only have 2 initiation upgrades to play with or 10, that would also be a cool thing to know.

[Stahlseele]

Summoning Focus would be usefull for getting really big spirits.
Then they do everything a focus can do and more and better . .

But Summoning Foci suck monkey ass. A Summoning Focus adds just to Summoning tests and just when summoning one of your five spirit types. You get the same bonus from a Power Focus, but it also adds to spellcasting, and binding, and works on all five of your spirits. It's seriously like 10 times as good and nowhere near ten times the cost.

-Username17

But you can only add one focus to any one test.
So the summoning focus for the actual summoning, and the power focus for the binding. maybe even the resisting of drain. but i will admit that my rule-fu is, at best, rusty when it comes to SR4, seeing how i still do play SR3.2D when/if i actually do get to play ^^

[The Vigilante]

Frank, using just Street Magic and the Shadowrun core book, what metamagic would you pick up for a materialization and possession mage, respectively? If there's a difference in the number and order of metamagic you would pick up depending on whether you only have 2 initiation upgrades to play with or 10, that would also be a cool thing to know.

I'm not Frank, but the initiation that grants you access to Greater Forms spirits seems like a good choice to me. I think it's called Invocation or Greater Invocation, I can't remember right now.

Summoning Focus would be usefull for getting really big spirits.
Then they do everything a focus can do and more and better . .

But Summoning Foci suck monkey ass. A Summoning Focus adds just to Summoning tests and just when summoning one of your five spirit types. You get the same bonus from a Power Focus, but it also adds to spellcasting, and binding, and works on all five of your spirits. It's seriously like 10 times as good and nowhere near ten times the cost.

-Username17

But you can only add one focus to any one test.
So the summoning focus for the actual summoning, and the power focus for the binding. maybe even the resisting of drain. but i will admit that my rule-fu is, at best, rusty when it comes to SR4, seeing how i still do play SR3.2D when/if i actually do get to play ^^

No, you would just use your power focus on all the tests, including the summoning test. There's no need to have another focus if you already have a power focus.

[Stahlseele]

Invoking is the Meta-Tech for Great Form Spirits.
And those are generally just nasty, even at Force 6 or so . .
Force 6 Great form Earth Elemental:
6 Kilometer Radius Quake Power at Level 6 . .
Yes, you can basically flatten huge parts of Megaplexes by yourself . .
Hmm, ok, then if i can really add the same power focus to the summoning, to the binding and to the drain resistance test, then getting something else is really pointless . .

[Orca]

Wouldn't this depend on what sort of SR campaign you were in? I mean, Masking is useful if you want to emphasise the staying in the shadows part, but not so much in a Pink Mohawk style campaign. Vice versa for Invoking.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Frank, using just Street Magic and the Shadowrun core book, what metamagic would you pick up for a materialization and possession mage, respectively? If there's a difference in the number and order of metamagic you would pick up depending on whether you only have 2 initiation upgrades to play with or 10, that would also be a cool thing to know.

For possession, the one that lets you do whatever you like when possessed (only f your GM is a bitch) and they one that lets you disguise your magic are key. Not that I'm Frank...

[Lokathor]

Hmm, ok, then if i can really add the same power focus to the summoning, to the binding and to the drain resistance test, then getting something else is really pointless . .

Power Foci doesnt' add against drain, since drain isn't a Magic based dice pool.

[Username17]

Wouldn't this depend on what sort of SR campaign you were in? I mean, Masking is useful if you want to emphasise the staying in the shadows part, but not so much in a Pink Mohawk style campaign. Vice versa for Invoking.

This. Flexible Signature is fucking cash if the GM is going to come after you with magical forensics, and for some kinds of campaigns is absolutely going to be one of your first 3. Cleansing is the shit if you happen to be confronted by a lot of background counts. And since the background count guidelines are still pretty vague, that'll vary wildly from GM to GM.

Some powers are strongly grade dependent, and others are not. Centering and Shielding allow you to add your grade to your drain resistance and spell defense respectively, which is pretty good at any grade (since those values are important and fairly starkly capped), but is absolutely titanic at high grades. It's pretty damn hard to roll more than 12 drain resistance dice, so at grade 6 or so Centering starts progressing into the OMGWTFBBQ levels.

As noted by others, some powers like Invoking and Sacrifice are just very good in general and make good fall back choices if your game doesn't strongly encourage you to take one or another. There are some powers that require you to get another power first. These vary wildly in quality. Filtering is a very good advanced version of Cleansing, and Absorption is exactly the kind of thing that a Shielding using character would like to use. Others are rarely taken - Flux is based on Masking, but it's actually an enhancement of Flexible Signature, so you'd only ever take it if you had Masking and Flexible Signature and still wanted more Flexible Signature (which since Flexible Signature improves automatically with every initiation is somewhat unlikely).

Mostly it's just down to ones you can discount. You're not going to take Quickening or Great Ritual because they suck. Many advanced metamagics are stupid too. You aren't going to take Reflecting because it's lame. Sympathetic Linking is actually really powerful, but since you are never going to use it, you don't care.

-Username17

[Lokathor]

More Magic Questions:

[*]How do Assensing Specializations actually work? It lists Aura Reading, Astral Signatures, Psychometry, and "By Aura Type" as Specialization options in the SR4A book. Aura Reading seems to only apply when you take a Simple Action to Observe In Detail and make a test against someone you're looking at to read them for cyberware and such. Astral Signatures seems to deal with trying to detect for astral signatures, and then track someone based on that signature. But then the chart for what you can get out of your net hits on an Assensing test lists a person's signature as a thing you can learn. I just want a specialization for when I need to roll to notice people hiding. I don't much care how much extra info I get (since I can tell if they're a spirit or magician even with 0 net hits). Is there a thing for that?

[*]Magical Lodges says "The shape of the mana barrier roughly conforms to the physical shape of the lodge; the exact contours are determined at the time of creation and should be approximately Force in meters radius." Does this mean that if you don't have enough space you can't create a lodge with a high Force? Or if you've got a 3m by 3m room and you try to create a Force 7 Lodge it just stretches out past the room's walls, or what?

[Username17]

How do Assensing Specializations actually work?

Not well. A specialization in Aura Reading gives you +2 dice when taking the observe in detail action. A specialization in Astral Signatures gives you +2 dice when tracking an astral signature. The Psychometry specialization gives you a bonus on the Psychometry metamagic, which is itself overly long and poorly written. Taking any other specialization is a dependency error, since you wouldn't know whether the bonus applied or not until after your roll.

Does this mean that if you don't have enough space you can't create a lodge with a high Force?

Yes it does. However, your lodge doesn't have to be a perfect hemisphere or even exactly the right volume. You need to be "approximately" the right volume. The limits of approximation are up to the GM, I usually go with +/- 10% and it works OK.

-Username17

[Lokathor]

okay so:

Force	Volume (cubic m)	V +10%	V -10%
1	2.09	2.30	1.88
2	16.75	18.42	15.07
3	56.52	62.17	50.87
4	133.97	147.37	120.58
5	261.67	287.83	235.50
6	452.16	497.38	406.94
7	718.01	789.81	646.21
8	1,071.79	1,178.97	964.61
9	1,526.04	1,678.64	1,373.44
10	2,093.33	2,302.67	1,884.00
11	2,786.23	3,064.85	2,507.60
12	3,617.28	3,979.01	3,255.55
13	4,599.05	5,058.96	4,139.15
14	5,744.11	6,318.52	5,169.70

It's quickly becoming apparent that a mage can't really keep their Force 6 magical lodge inside an apartment (~ 12x10x3). Where are you expected to keep your lodge? Are you even expected to have a personal one? They don't seem super necessary for day to day use, and I could image that one of the benefits of being part of a magical group is that you could "rent" access to a lodge that they have (perhaps one among several) for a hefty fee to the group coffers.

Does an Ends of the Matrix Technomancer require similar space for their spooky technomantic node thing?