The Victorian dumbing down of classical stories.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:44 pm

Okay, so I found out recently that there's some ballads where Maid Marian was actually able to outfight Robin Hood (while disguised as a male) and in the original works she was more like Xena than... well, Maid Marian.

I also thought it was relevant for this thread which showed that our classic image of folk heroes as regular ol' joes was a side-effect of the dumbing down of adaptations.

So I just gotta ask, what other nuggets of golds are out there in literature history that writers have taken huge chunky shits on in an attempt to hide the awesome?

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:54 am

Flash Gordon.

Have you SEEN the new series?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:57 am

No.

What's going on with that?

Doom · Post by **Doom** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:58 am

Oh, gawd, the scy-fy channel version was horrid. I was like an hour into the series before I realized the unassuming guy in the brown drab uniform was FREAKIN' MING THE FREAKIN' MERCILESS, RULER OF ALL!

Granted, that channel is notorious for screwing things up badly, but it made me ache to see the 1980 version (an epic cinematic masterpiece, by comparison). Finding that DVD has, as yet, eluded me since.

Back to the OP, I've heard that Grimm's fairy tales are often quite grimmer than the Disney versions.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:37 am

While we're on Disney though, what about the reverse? I mean, Beauty and the Beast took a big pile of shit and made it awesome.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:52 am

Yeah, only Flash and his scientist buddy and Ming's daughter we at all like the original. The rest was bo-ring.

And yet, I watched the whole damn thing.

Oh, wait, I watched it while in Warcraft raids.

-Crissa

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:16 am

Surgo wrote:While we're on Disney though, what about the reverse? I mean, Beauty and the Beast took a big pile of shit and made it awesome.

I remember hearing something about his; think about this for a moment, the whole plot line evolves over what is esseneically a series of evening dining experiences.

But that's the magic of Disney at its finest when it works. You take a basic idea, add whole sections of details not in the story and suddenly those details are more important than the story. Take Snow White; how many people know the "Seven" dwarves names by heart. The original story just had a unnumbered bunch of unnamed dwarves.

I try not to watch the Sci-Fi channel anymore. I'm pretty much sure I will be guarenteed to be dissapointed.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:40 am

Doom314 wrote:Back to the OP, I've heard that Grimm's fairy tales are often quite grimmer than the Disney versions.

Disney has to follow the family friendly for most things that families would see, even though they are treading farther into not just family oriented programming.

It is like Nursery Rhymes, such as those about Mary Queen of Scots, Lizzy Borden, etc. The info is hidden in them so not to disturb "the viewer" of such things.

With many things if is just "artistic licensing" to reboot a popular "franchise", such as the BBC Merlin series having Merlin aging forward and being the same age as Arthur and growing up with him in Arthur's fathers kingdom.

A claim for this is because people are tired of the "status quo" and it won't sell anymore, so it has to be changed. Look at anything and "canon" is thrown out today for a quick buck to sell more product. That goes for books, movies, etc. that are in the public domain.

Speaking of Disney, it is also like their fight to hold the copyrights to things such as Snow White, and many other stories that they made films for, but the actual stories are in the public domain, and Disney doesn't like it that much. For example the new Alice in Wonderland by Tim Burton...

As they say, history is written by the victor. So obviously it is rewritten by the one with the most money...aka the golden rule...he who has the gold makes the rules.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:46 am

Yeah, some of the old fairies tales were nasty.

The original versions of the sleeping Beauty has the prince get her pregnant and wait for the birth before delivery. Sometime it's twins.

When it's not twins, he gets her pregnant again and waits for THAT birth.

Then he wakes her up.

Which inspired that line in Koumei's Witch class.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:53 am

Maxus wrote: Which inspired that line in Koumei's Witch class.

Which one? I wasn't familiar with the original tale.

Doom · Post by **Doom** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 5:09 am

Crissa wrote:Yeah, only Flash and his scientist buddy and Ming's daughter we at all like the original. The rest was bo-ring.

And yet, I watched the whole damn thing.

Oh, wait, I watched it while in Warcraft raids.

-Crissa

Hey, it doesn't have to be like the original (Galactica did a more-hit-than-miss job of it), but it has to be sane. I just coudn't hack the ruler of all being so failingly unimpressive.

I was impressed that you watched the whole thing. I gave it up after like 3 episodes (had to make sure that really, really, was Ming, kept waiting for him to show up and put some awesome in the show).

Then again, you just had it on in the background, that don't count.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 5:10 am

Koumei wrote:
Maxus wrote: Which inspired that line in Koumei's Witch class.
Which one? I wasn't familiar with the original tale.

"Put princesses to sleep so princes can save them and fuck them, hopefully in that order."

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 5:24 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:What's going on with that?

There are people describing it as the most worst TV series ever.

I disagree with them, they are going way over the top. There are SOME things out there AS bad.

Anyway its just bad, depressingly bad, and all those people who walked in and went "Hey its Flash Gordon, even bad is good right?" walked out going "OH MY GOD MEDIOCRITY IS NOT GOOD! I AM SICKENED TO MY CORE, BLUUUUUURRRRGHHHH!"

Anyway here are some of the new Flash Gordon highlights.

1) Flash the super action hero guy? No, Flash is a failure in life who fixes cars for a living.

2) Rocket ships and stuff? Hell no. There is no rocket ship. There is however a crappy van and some sort of wanky vintage convertible.

3) Zarkov kick ass super genius> NO Zarkov is a second rate crack pot FORMER LAB ASSISTANT. Lab assistant to who? Why Flash Gordon's boring dad of course, a guy the whole series inexplicably revolves around and talks about.

2) Ming the merciless? NO FUNKY MUSTACHES.

3) Ming the merciless? BLONDE

4) Ming the merciless? NO FUNKY WARDROBE. He is really rather drab actually.

5) Ming the merciless? NOT ACTUALLY MERCILESS. Seriously, he is actually sort of a nice guy fighting for unity in a time of global crisis and saving the people of the world from a terrible water shortage. He isn't even invading/destroying earth for kicks/evil ambitions, he just wants to migrate his starving people there.

6) That extra chick. There is an extra chick. She is basically Xena. She steps on the toes of louis lane rip off and ming's daughter and their roles all over the place. Then she steps over Flash's Toes all over the place by being a bigger action hero than him. One wonders WHY THE FUCK THAT CHARACTER IS IN THE SHOW OTHER THAN TO RUIN IT.

7) The Viridians? DO NOT DRESS IN GREEN.

8) The Hawkmen? HAVE NO WINGS.

9) Exotic alien locals? Well actually to save on budget most of the show actually happens on earth. Sometimes they go to Mongo, but then they just go to what looks like a Mall, or what looks like the same forest they use for the forest they spend half their time in on earth, or what looks like the same Quarry that all other locations on Ming seem to be in from distant Hawk Man lands to Ming's own backyard slave mines.

The entire series is like a giant cock tease, thought you were getting something called Flash Gordon... NOOOOTTT!

All in all the Flash Gordon cartoon series from the 1990's where all the characters were made into teenagers with a penchant for hover skateboarding as a means of resolving their conflicts was more exciting, accurate and relatively higher in quality.

Edit: Oh and the music sucks. I mean fuck, you make a new Flash Gordon TV series and you don't even so much as shell out for a remix of the song "Flash Gordon". Who the fuck do you fuckers think you are? Fuck you "Skiffy" thanks a-fucking-gain.

Jacob_Orlove · Post by **Jacob_Orlove** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 6:16 am

Maxus wrote:Yeah, some of the old fairies tales were nasty.

The original versions of the sleeping Beauty has the prince get her pregnant and wait for the birth before delivery. Sometime it's twins.

When it's not twins, he gets her pregnant again and waits for THAT birth.

Then he wakes her up.

Which inspired that line in Koumei's Witch class.

I thought in one of the original versions the prince just left her asleep, then nine months later the baby was born, crawled up to suckle, and sucked the splinter out of her thumb by accident, and that's when the curse was broken and everyone woke up.

Also, an earlier version of Cinderella had the elder stepsisters chopping up their own feet to try to fit into the glass slipper. I think that might have even killed them.

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 6:45 am

i wouldn't call disney turning beauty and the beast into not-pile of shit.

i think that goes to the french movie "la belle et le bete" which is what the disney movie seriously ripped off of in so many ways. the french film is fucking awesome.

go see it.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 7:56 am

Maxus wrote:
Koumei wrote:
Maxus wrote: Which inspired that line in Koumei's Witch class.
Which one? I wasn't familiar with the original tale.
"Put princesses to sleep so princes can save them and fuck them, hopefully in that order."

Would you believe that was just me being dumb?

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:27 am

PhoneLobster wrote:6) That extra chick. There is an extra chick. She is basically Xena. She steps on the toes of louis lane rip off and ming's daughter and their roles all over the place. Then she steps over Flash's Toes all over the place by being a bigger action hero than him. One wonders WHY THE FUCK THAT CHARACTER IS IN THE SHOW OTHER THAN TO RUIN IT.

Umm, because if she wasn't in the show, I wouldn't have watched it?

WTF, man, it has to remain a male fantasy show? No female action heros?

Ugh. At least she moved the plot along, unlike most hangers-on.

-Crissa

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:15 am

Crissa wrote:Umm, because if she wasn't in the show, I wouldn't have watched it?

WTF, man, it has to remain a male fantasy show? No female action heros?

The show already had a surfeit of established female characters to take on a female action hero role. She stepped on all their toes leaving them to nothing but roles as two dimensional neglected love interests.

Then she interfered with that role too.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:20 am

If you want to make Flash Gordon show, Flash Gordon should be the hero, not some other person.

If you want to make Flash Gordon a girl, it's a risky move that could be done well, or shittily. And that's okay. But if someone else is the main hero in a show about Flash Gordon, that's a problem.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:57 am

Jacob_Orlove wrote:Also, an earlier version of Cinderella had the elder stepsisters chopping up their own feet to try to fit into the glass slipper. I think that might have even killed them.

I'm pretty sure they lived to have their eyes pecked out by Cindy's bird friends, then live long lives as blind gimps.

But everyone beat Robin Hood. That was a huge part of his schtick, recruiting people that kicked his ass. Little John knocked him off the bridge. Friar Tuck throws him into the ford. Will Scarlet beats him in a duel. So it's not at all surprising that at least one version of Marian would do something similar.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:07 am

You could have Dale Arden run around with a radium pistol kicking ass and taking names. That would be fine. Or you could have Princess Aura do the same. Or both. I don't even care.

But having your own fucking self insertion character come in and piss all over the Flash Gordon characters in a Flash Gordon story is just 1st order fanfiction fail. You don't tell the new adventures of Robn Hood about how some character you just made up is a much better archer than Robin Hood. And if you do, it's because you're fucking 14 and no one wants to read your fucking bullshit fanfic.

-Username17

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:17 am

True, Frank, but until late in the series, the camera wouldn't even follow her. She was just one of Flash's inconvenient contacts on Mong. So she'd run off repeatedly.

And they eventually made Flash's home town love interest pretty awesome, too.

-Crissa

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:07 pm

Jacob_Orlove wrote:
Maxus wrote:Yeah, some of the old fairies tales were nasty.

The original versions of the sleeping Beauty has the prince get her pregnant and wait for the birth before delivery. Sometime it's twins.

When it's not twins, he gets her pregnant again and waits for THAT birth.

Then he wakes her up.

Which inspired that line in Koumei's Witch class.
I thought in one of the original versions the prince just left her asleep, then nine months later the baby was born, crawled up to suckle, and sucked the splinter out of her thumb by accident, and that's when the curse was broken and everyone woke up.

Also, an earlier version of Cinderella had the elder stepsisters chopping up their own feet to try to fit into the glass slipper. I think that might have even killed them.

Faries were involved, they helped birth the child, or twins (depending the version); and brought them up to Cinderella's chest to suckle; after a few months they start moving around, and suck on her finger/thumb, and get the magic splinter out. Then, master splinter shows up, and has a throw down with the shredder. Then everyone in the castle wakes up.

For some reason Cinderalla always seems to happy to wake up with a baby clinging onto her, or two babies clinging to her. Despite the fact that she 1) wasn't concious during the conception, pregnancy or birth, and 2) seriously has a baby in her arms that she can't explain.

I posit that Cinderalla had baby-stealing tendencies in her brain to begin with, and upon waking thought to herself "excellent" in her best Monty Burns impersonation.