Equipment Specificity

[Artless]

I suppose other people would find this idea ludicrous, and if it's been discussed ad nauseum already I apologize, but what does everyone else think of a modular equipment system? For example: a longsword is generally something you could find in any game, barring modern ones. (Strangely, a lot of the "futuristic" settings I've played in have more manufactured melee weapons used in them than modern ones...) Should this "longsword" be an object within the game that has a locked set of attributes for damage, reach, etc.? Or should it just be a descriptor you can apply to an array of attributes so that, if the player wants to use a sword, they can just do that?

My rationale for this question is that I've played games where, if you bought a mace for the stats but your character idea involved a honkin' tree trunk, you were using a friggin mace. I've also played games where it didn't matter what the statline said the weapon was, you could use the stats for an axe but say it's a sword. I'd like to just do away with both scenarios by implementing something that lets the players just pick stats for what they want and call it what they want. Meaning, there's a set of basic attributes that players or DMs can just tack on descriptors or special stuff to make whatever they wanted.

Let's say you've got three points or so to spend on things you can pick to make your weapon, armor, whatever. You pull those attributes from a list like:

-1 points (gives you more stuff to work with)
Flimsy (breaks easy)
Unwieldy (hard to hit with)
Big (requires more than one hand to use)
Set Up (needs other equipment or time to be used properly)
Exotic (requires special training or character resources to use)
Limited Use or Ammo (need to spend resources to get more uses out of it)
Expensive

0 points
Low Damage

1 point
Increased damage (could be taken multiple times)
Punishing (bigger crits)
Reaching
Deep Hits (crits more often)
Alternating (Deal different damage types, taken per type)
Cheap
Light (only need one hand to use it)

2 points
Ranged
Cheap as Free (your character can just expect to have one of these.)

___

-1 points
Brittle (armor breaks easy)
Heavy (slows you down)
Bulky (hard to move in, requires some resources to wear effectively)
Expensive
Piecemeal (reduces armor's effectiveness)

0 points
Light Armor

1 points
Thick (increased protection, multiple times again)
Fortified (reduces special damage types, taken per type)
Trifling (easier to move in)
Cheap

___

or whatever. A light pistol could be:
Ranged, Light, Increased Damage, Ammo
and a spear could be
Reaching, Punishing, Increased Damage(x2), Big or
Reaching, Increased Damage, Light if they wanted to use it a la 300 or
yadda yadda yadda.
And a guy who wants some bulletproof haz-mat suit like Gordon Freeman could just write down that he's got a Fortified (Radiation and Chemicals,) Thicker, Trifling, Expensive armored suit.

Just some basic ideas here, but does anyone else think there are ideas here worth pursuing?

[Josh_Kablack]

This seems really vague and difficult to implement without resulting in massive power imbalances, but likely worth pursing further.

[The Man Who Killed Death]

Just a little nitpick: you have being two-handed as a -1 and being one-handed as a +1. So you have to choose one or the other? Shouldn't it default somewhere?

Also this is a very interesting idea. Although, like Josh stated, it could easily be exploited for imbalances. Of course, as long as you test everything and make it so the effects don't lead to anything too exploitable you should be fine.

[CatharzGodfoot]

My weapon is definitely going to be flimsy, limited use, expensive, and cheap as free. Maybe a whiskey bottle?

[Artless]

My weapon is definitely going to be flimsy, limited use, expensive, and cheap as free. Maybe a whiskey bottle?

I, uh... I guess I should include some lines to limit those contextual arguments for the 3E kitting of this, huh?

[mean_liar]

I suppose other people would find this idea ludicrous, and if it's been discussed ad nauseum already I apologize, but what does everyone else think of a modular equipment system?

I think it's awesome. What else would you like to know?

[Username17]

Coming up with point buy weapon systems is always difficult. Because let's face it, what usually matters is Damage over time, and that means that a damage boost is worth more the higher your accuracy is, and an accuracy boost is worth more the higher your damage per hit is. And so on.

But yeah, if you can procedurally generate weapons, you can have a fuck tonne more weapons than if you don't. If each weapon has 2 boosts off a list of five choices, you have 10 different weapons from a 5 point list. If you double the number of points on the list, it goes from 10 different weapons to 45. Much more than mere doubling of the distinct weapons from doubling the amount of writing.

-Username17

[Artless]

Going off of the earlier model, this is just a rough kit for 3E. If anyone has some suggestions to gin it up or improve its functionality, please say so.
I'm just hashing this one out quick and dirty, so if there are obviously abusive packages that you can see, let me know. I can see some potential for abuse by just loading up on -1s and not caring about the consequences, so I'll probably want to consolidate that list and bump up the basic points from 2 to 3 to compensate. But, all I ever do is half-ass mechanical stuff anyway, and I'm sure there are some specific weapon attributes I've missed somewhere.

We'll say you get two points for a weapon that costs 10 gp. Every point afterward costs an extra 35 gp, up to a maximum of 3 extra points. (Sounds odd - any other ways to limit points-grabbing?)

-1 points
Flimsy - This weapon's hardness is reduced by 5.
Exotic - This weapon is used at -4 to hit if you do not have the appropriate Weapon Proficiency.
Ammo - This weapon requires some kind of ammunition to use and needs to be reloaded each time its used.
Big - This weapon is a Medium object. Replaces One-Handed.
Poor Damage - This weapon does 1d4 damage. Replaces Low Damage.
Conspicuous - You can't even try to conceal this weapon.

0 points
Low Damage - This weapon does 1d6 damage.
Short - This is a melee weapon.
One-Handed - This weapon is a small object.

1 point
Light damage - This weapon deals 1d8 damage. Replaces Low Damage.
Punishing - Increase the critical multiplier for this weapon to x3. Cannot be applied to a weapon that is Incredibly Punishing.
Reaching - This weapon hits opponents up to 10 ft. away.
Deep Hits - Increase the critical threat range for this weapon to 19-20.
Alternating - This weapon can deal different damage types
Light - This weapon can be used as a Tiny Object. Replaces One-Handed.
Balanced - This weapon can be thrown up to 10 ft. Cannot be applied to Ranged weapons.
Tangling - This weapon can be used to make Trip attacks.
Inconspicuous - You can hide this weapon easily. +2 to Sleight of Hand to conceal this weapon.
Siege - When used against a charging enemy, this weapon deals double damage.
Mounted - This weapon deals double damage when used on the back of a charging mount.

2 points
Ranged - Increase the range increment for this weapon by 30 ft. This can only be applied to weapons with Ammo. Replaces Short. Can be applied multiple times.
Incredibly Punishing - Increase the critical multiplier for this weapon to x4. Cannot be applied to a weapon that is Punishing.
Deeper Hits - Increase this weapon's critical threat range to 18-20. Cannot be applied to a weapon with Deep Hits.
Cheap as Free* - Honestly, you might as well just write it down on everyone's sheets.
Heavy Damage - This weapon deals 1d10 damage. Replaces Low Damage.

4 points
Beastly Damage - This weapon deals 2d6 damage. Replaces Low Damage.

* - This attribute can't be applied to a weapon with more than 2 points in aggregate.

___

From this we'll make some weapons using examples out of the PHB:

Longsword, 2 points, 10gp: Light Damage, Deep Hits
Scimitar, 2 points, 10gp: Deeper Hits
Greatsword, 3 points, 45gp: Beastly Damage, Deep Hits, Big, Conspicuous
Falchion, 3 points, 45gp: Heavy Damage, Deeper Hits, Big, Conspicuous
Spiked Chain, 3 points, 45gp: Heavy Damage, Reaching, Tangling, Big, Exotic
Dagger, 2 points, 10gp: Poor Damage, Inconspicuous, Balanced, Light
Longbow, 4 points, 80gp: Heavy Damage, Punishing, Rangedx3, Ammo, Big, Conspicuous, Flimsy
Javelin, 2 points, 10gp: Ranged
Lance, 2 points, 10gp: Light Damage, Punishing, Mounted, Reaching, Big, Conspicuous

[Leress]

Dragon Slayer (Valkyrie Profile), 2 points: Short, Big, Deeper Hits, Incredibly Punishing, Light Damage, Flimsy, Conspicuous, Reaching, Exotic

1d8 18-20x4


Nearly everyone would put flimsy and Conspicuous for free space. No one would use Inconspicuous or Light because it's not worth the same as reach.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Since bows are already super-good, let's see how hardcore of a bow I can make...

[*]Flimsy (it's a long piece of flexible wood; -1)
[*]Ammo (it's a bow; -1)
[*]Big (it's a long bow; -1)
[*]Conspicuous (it's a long bow; -1)
[*]Poor Damage (shoots skinny arrows; -1)

[*]Deeper Hits (+2)
[*]Incredibly Punishing (+2)
[*]Ranged x3 (+6)

Total: 5 points; 115 gp.

1d4 18-20x4, range 90'.

[Utterfail]

Two-handed and one-handed features aren't really benefits or penalties. People only use two handed weapons because that's their thing, though I could see an argument that not having an offhand is more detrimental than the 150% strength bonus is beneficial. Light weapons are a benefit though.

I'd also say that base point availability should be based on raw cost, but instead on the simple, martial, and exotic classifications. To establish how many each category should get, you could look at some weapons from each category and mock them up first. Turns out if you stat the different weapon categories up by point its pretty wildly inconsistent, so instead I'd suggest that you come up with a top end for each category and design the point system around that.

[Jacob_Orlove]

Make it so that people can't stack two kinds of crit boosts on the same weapon and the system should be fine. Allowing increased crit range AND multiplier on the same weapon is crazy--each one doubles or triples in value because you've got the other, which is why everyone's example broken weapons are 18-20 x4.

You should probably cut a few of the weaker disadvantages, too. I'd drop Flimsy and Conspicuous. And don't try to tie things to gp cost, just use the simple/martial/exotic split that people have suggested:

Basic: 0 points (covers stuff even Wizards can use)
Simple: 2 points
Martial: 3 points
Exotic: 4 points (if you make this a category, you can drop the -1 point Exotic disadvantage)

edit: you might be able to make 2d6 damage cost 3 points this way. And work out equivalencies, if people want 2d4 damage instead of 1d10, or 1d12 instead of 2d6, I think they should be able to take it.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Dwarven Warpike: Exotic, Big, Beastly Damage, Reaching, Tangling, Punishing, Alternating, Siege (total: 7). If you say that a great big pole with a great big blade on the end can't be concealed, it's only 6. So there are existing weapons that can't be made with this scheme.

Also, you don't have a method of making double weapons.

[Grek]

Big Rock: Flimsy, Big, Ammo, Conspicuous, Ranged, Cheap as Free, Heavy Damage.
Tree Trunk: Flimsy, Big, Ammo, Conspicuous, Cheap as Free, Beastly Damage.

There is no downside to taking Ammo, Conspicuous and Flimsy on something that is Cheap as Free, as you can always just pack a golf bag full/grab another.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Big Rock: Flimsy, Big, Ammo, Conspicuous, Ranged, Cheap as Free, Heavy Damage.
Tree Trunk: Flimsy, Big, Ammo, Conspicuous, Cheap as Free, Beastly Damage.

There is no downside to taking Ammo, Conspicuous and Flimsy on something that is Cheap as Free, as you can always just pack a golf bag full/grab another.

I'm pretty sure that "ammo" now means something that uses ammo rather than something that is ammo. And I'm not sure why it's different from "ranged".

[kjdavies]

Going off of the earlier model, this is just a rough kit for 3E. If anyone has some suggestions to gin it up or improve its functionality, please say so.

I'm just hashing this one out quick and dirty, so if there are obviously abusive packages that you can see, let me know. I can see some potential for abuse by just loading up on -1s and not caring about the consequences, so I'll probably want to consolidate that list and bump up the basic points from 2 to 3 to compensate. But, all I ever do is half-ass mechanical stuff anyway, and I'm sure there are some specific weapon attributes I've missed somewhere.

We'll say you get two points for a weapon that costs 10 gp. Every point afterward costs an extra 35 gp, up to a maximum of 3 extra points. (Sounds odd - any other ways to limit points-grabbing?)

Without going into examination of what you've done here (looks okay, I'm just in a hurry because I'm at work), what I've done is base things around usage. I no longer have 'Simple', 'Martial', or 'Exotic' weapons. All weapons of a particular size start with certain characteristics. As you get better with them their performance characteristics change. I noticed when I used to fence that I could use (foils of) rapiers and sabres about equally well -- but I used them the same way, because I was not yet well-enough versed with the weapons to take advantage of the differences.

There are some house rules mixed into this, so if you see something that isn't according to RAW it's probably on purpose. I have not put a lot of thought into ranged weapons yet, but expect to later.

To start, 'basic weapon use' (0-level talent, consider as 'Simple Weapon Proficiency feat' in 3.x) gives you the general usage characteristics described below, plus one usage improvement (described even further below).

• Light weapons are small, may only be used one-handed (or rather, using two-handed makes no difference), do a base of d4 damage (of whatever type), can be used only at close quarters (while in the same square as the target), must be 'finessed' (use Dex modifier for attack bonus instead of Str modifier), Str modifier to damage is halved.
• One-handed weapons are bigger, generally used one-handed but may be used two-handed (for +50% damage), do a base of d6 damage (of whatever type), intended for normal melee range but may be used at close quarters at a -4 penalty to attack, uses Str modifier for attack bonus, uses Str modifier for damage.
• Two-handed weapons are bigger yet, must be used two-handed (+50% damage), do a base of d8 damage (of whatever type), intended for normal melee range but may be used at close quarters at a -4 penalty to attack, uses Str modifier for attack bonus, uses Str modifier +50% for damage.

For 3.x 'simple weapons' this is generally about right. There are exceptions (especially daggers and spears) that I'll get to later.

'Martial weapon use' (another basic talent, consider equivalent to 'Martial Weapon Proficiency' except that it applies to an entire weapon group -- 'swords', 'axes', etc.) gives two weapon usage improvements (which vary by specific weapon) that brings things more or less in line with 3.x 'martial weapons'.

• axes mostly get +1 damage die size (hand axe (light) does d6, battleaxe (one-handed) does d8, greataxe (two-handed) does d10 -- may want to tweak this) and +1 critical multiplier.
• swords are all over the place. Most get +1 threat range, short swords also get 'optional light use' (can be used as a light weapon if desired), long swords get better damage, bastard swords get optional one-handed use, rapiers get +2 threat range instead of +1, etc.

After this, 'Combat Style' talent (available only at Expert (level 1) and up, requires Combat Training (Training Bonus of +1 or more) lets you tack on more weapon usage improvements. You can apply a particular usage improvement no more than once per tier (four levels) of combat style you have with that weapon group, and if you can take combat style talent you can generally add one or two weapon usage improvements per tier of the talent.

The above may be slightly confusing if you don't know how Echelon works here, to keep it simple let's say that full-BAB characters can add two usage improvements per tier (half of which can be used for a single improvement type), medium-BAB characters can add one per tier (all of which can be used for a single improvement type), and poor-BAB characters aren't allowed to take it at all.

Improvements include

• improved damage (bump damage die size by one)
• improved threat range (increase by one)
• improved critical multiplier (increase by one)
• improved accuracy (+1 to hit)
• weapon trick (+2 (or +4, haven't decided) to disarm or trip or etc. checks)
• reach (can generally only be taken once) -- light weapons can be used at normal range, two-handed weapons can be used as 10' reach, one-handed weapons aren't generally affected)
• lighter use (one-handed weapon can be used as light weapon, two-handed weapon can be used one-handed)
• thrown (not sure yet what this means)

To start on new material, I suppose there can be limitations or disadvantages to certain weapons as well. Bows in general probably have 'long range' or 'launcher' advantage and may have reduced damage limitation -- longbow and shortbow might both do d6 points of damage in the hands of someone with only basic training, with a x2 critical multiplier, while martially-trained characters might do d8 with a x3 critical multiplier. A greataxe might have a disadvantage of some sort in order to bump the base damage to d12 (per RAW), though I don't know what that disadvantage might be.

Disadvantages might include

• reduced damage die size
• reduced accuracy (-1 to attack)
• reduced critical multiplier (-1 to multiplier -- perhaps an axe combat style trades off critical effectiveness for something else)
• reduced threat range (-1 to threat range -- perhaps a sword combat style trades off critical frequency for something else)
• heavier weapon use (light weapon must be used as a one-handed weapon -- not sure this is a bad trade -- or one-handed weapon must be used two-handed)

If weapons can have inherent disadvantages (rather than chosen by the combat style) then presumably they can also be bought off with the combat style talent.

Note that because this is a matter of training, a character might in fact learn more than one style. They cannot be readily combined (you don't get to apply the benefits of all sword styles you've learned) but you can switch between them fairly freely. One round you might use a furious style that gives you some vicious (high critical) attacks, another you might choose a style that makes you more accurate, and so on.

This ties into magic weapons as well -- a sword that is enchanted with a particular combat style can allow the wielder to use that style in place of whatever one(s) he normally uses, providing horizontal improvement rather than vertical.

Just some wandering thoughts.

Keith

[Itay K]

You need "combat style" to use a spear as a reach weapon? That's somewhat counterintuitive.

[kjdavies]

You need "combat style" to use a spear as a reach weapon? That's somewhat counterintuitive.

Why's that? Spear, in 3.x RAW, is a two-handed weapon without reach. Under this model you could take one or both of reach and one-handed use (or possibly as two different styles) so you can use it one-handed if needed or two-handed at longer reach. I suspect the two style options are mutually exclusive, or that 'bastard use' is inherent in the weapon and you pay only for the ability to use it that way -- no one-handing a greataxe.

Longspear is a two-handed reach weapon that cannot be readily used at normal range. It pays for reach and probably has the "not at normal range" disadvantage... though you could probably take a style option that lets you do so (I have seen at least one feat published that lets you do just that).


Keith