What does level 20 look like?

[Maxus]

Starting a new thread to keep from derailing the other one further.

So, okay, assuming we keep monsters or casters as our benchmark. What should the non-caster characters be doing at level 10 or 15 or 20?

How strong should they be? How fast should they be? What's the difference between a level 13 dexterity-based character and a level 13 strength-based one?

One of Koumei's unarmed combatant classes can pick up a boulder at level 5, a castle at level 10, and a mountain at level 15. That doesn't sound bad to me, but someone else may (and, let's face it, probably will) have a different idea.

The SRD tells you a level 20 melee-type character should still be moving 30 feet a round and be sort of bound by physics, so they can't punch a mountain and have it break or run across the continent in a move action.

The epic rules say levels 20+ are deific-level power. That's about the only thing I agree with epic on. Or can see the point of. Even if you aren't a god, you're playing in the same ballpark. The mechanics of your almighty godly character...

I'm likely rambling due to a long day and not much sleep last night and I'm about to correct this and check the responses in the morning: So, what should a non-caster be doing at level 10 to be worth the number? The same question applies to the other levels. What should the game designers look at for ideas?

[Koumei]

What it looks like:

The epic rules say levels 20+ are deific-level power.

Nah, only the description says that. The rules... let's take a look at some of those EPIC GODLIKE features...

The Epic Monk can run a bit faster (at level thirty they move +100 feet, so I'm sure a caster can turn into something that flies faster than 130') and slowly gets better AC (like, very slowly. At level 25, the non-Wisdom part is as good as HALF PLATE, FUCK YEAH!)

The Epic Fighter gets BONUS FEATS! Let's look at some of them:

Great X: your ability score IMPROVES BY ONE, HOLY FUCKING CHRIST YES

Fast Healing: you gain Fast Healing 3, which can only be done by what, CR 3 monsters?

Familiar Spell: lol, your familiar can cast a spell you know, thus being better than the Fighter all by itself. How embarrassing.

Epic Spellcasting: as a Spellcaster, you may win the game if you do it right, or you could spend a hundred years and 10 levels of XP making a spell that isn't even that great.

Exceptional Deflection: you can even deflect rays and shit as though they were arrows. That's pretty cool, but is it deific?

Dire Charge: you get a limited form of Pounce, which makes you a CR 2 monster

Energy Resistance: you can be set on fire without burning, but you're setting your feat on fire. Resistance 10? Give me a fucking break.

Damage Reduction: REDUCE DAMAGE TAKEN BY THREE WHOLE POINTS!

Chaotic Rage and Holy Strike: aligned weapons. Cute, but in the case of Holy Strike, paladongs should just get that at level "not much".

Blinding Speed: 5 rounds per day, you can benefit from a level 3 spell.

Bane of Enemies: you hurt your favoured enemies a little more. This is making my nipples hard just thinking about it.

Great Smiting: double your Smite damage. Nice, but not deific.

Need I go on? So to recap, casters get the world-shaping "I AM GOD, HAHAHA" spellpower, and fighters take it up the ass.

Oh, and Rogues took their best feats (Perfect Two Weapon Fighting and Lingering Damage) long ago as Bonus Feats at levels 10 and 13. And then took Gape of the Serpent, Dust Storm or Disjoining Eye at level 19 just because they could.

[Josh_Kablack]

My take on D&D 3.x levels as they relate to characters from fiction ( reposted from an old thread:)

Lvl1: Stand by Me - you're a couple 13 year old kids who have to run from a mean junkyard dog and can expect to get thrashed by a gang of highwaymen.

Lvl2-3: Biblo and the dwarves from the Hobbit. You can deal with a couple goblins and a riddle competition, but despite your 13 member party you need to rely on running away, gimme artifiacts, and a deus-ex-machina NPC to actually survive trolls, spiders and the dragon.

Lvl4-5: Wong-Fei Hong, Miyamoto Mushashi, Sargent York, the Red Baron: You've beaten/killed scores of people in duels or open warfare and are reknowned for it - but most of the crazy tales are documented as having actually happened.

Lvl 6-8: Conan. When they crucify you for piracy, and the buzzards come to gnaw your eyeballs out, you go all Ozzy and bite a vulture's head off for sustenance that you use to fuel your escape and begin your vengance against your captors - and that sort of thing is just a typical week for you. You regularly perform deeds that it's arguable whether they are even humanly possible.

(note, the XP system assumes that above this level an infinite number of 1st level characters is no longer a challenge for you)

Lvl 9-10: Heracles of greek myth. You're a flippin demigod, you pal around with folks who come back from the dead and you kill the toughest beasts of legend. You regularly perform labors so great that each of that attests to the fact you are superhuman.

(And since somebody mentioned it already: I'd put Corwin of Amber on keel with Heracles - he basically just swordfights with superhuman ability, crafts magic guns and has access to a variety of planeshifting artifacts unique to the setting)

Lvl 11-12: The later Slayers anime series, where you can't cast your best spells because they might unravel all of creation and you find out that the fighter's artifact sword is an even bigger deal than most artifacts. Shapeshifting Gold Dragons with class levels and archdemons are legal player characters, on par with the humans.

Lvl 13-16 Marvel Comics: The PCs are nigh-immortal superheros who always find way to win against anyone. Any villain clever enough has found a way to steal/replicate/harness/become a Cosmic Cube or Ultimate Nullifier or similar infinite power loop - if you're on team hero, you're going to have to thwart at least one such plot for omnipotence each year. People may die, but they never ever stay dead.

(Note: above here: the XP system assumes that an infinite number of folks on Heracles power level are no longer a challenge for you)

Level 17-19: DC Comics: Like Marvel Comics, only instead of Spider Man, Captain America and Wolverine being the primary focus characters, the PCs tend to be Superman, Green Lantern and The Flash. The only ways to even challenge PCs at this level is to use their own builds and combos against them (Bizzaro, Black Adam, Sinestro, etc) or to present threats who are already nigh-omnipotent. (Darkseid)

Lvl 20: Santa Claus: You know whether everyone under the age of 12 is naughty or nice all the time, you have a stable of economy-wrecking elves making magic items just for kicks and you can visit every home on the planet in just one evening. You don't fight monsters - you fight things like "selfishness" and "greed" and it's not just quixotic.

Lvl 21+/D&DG: You're fucking kidding me. This ELH system breaks into a dozen different infinite combos the minute you look at it, and is not playable without so many houserules that no two groups using it will even be playing the same game. You're just back to playing magical teaparty here.

[TheFlatline]

You don't fight monsters - you fight things like "selfishness" and "greed" and it's not just quixotic.

A really well written adventure using this as a seed would kick 8 kinds of ass.

[Caedrus]

I still don't get why people have a problem thinking that a Barbarian or Fighter should do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PCDxS8uJFQ

[Prak]

well, hell, part of that would be easy to implement, just allow martial characters to use larger and larger weapons as they level, and over come the non-proficiency penalty on improvised weapons.

Is that the whole of it? no, obviously not, but it's a start. God damnit... the first thing that comes to mind is some kind of virtual size category effect that scales with BAB or something. Which could work, but it'd likely be shit.

The effects would all be good though, they'd allow a martial character to wield larger weapons, have a bigger reach, deal more damage while not armed with manufactured weapons (oh, and everything should have a slam attack), threaten more squares, and possibly increase strength and con.

Balance might be tricky, but it could work out, at least as a start. Hell, throw in some altered movement rules, and it does a lot for martial characters that their story analogues do.

[Caedrus]

I actually made a little subsystem to encourage and reward diverse and resourceful improvisation so players could play more like Jason Bourne (while still having good reasons to use non-improvised weapons as well. On the same character).

[Username17]

Using larger and larger weapons just isn't that good. Upgrading to a Fire Giant's Greatsword is worth an average of 2 points of damage per hit. It's a touch better than half a die of sneak attack but larger weapons tend to be more expensive and may not come in as awesome a flavor of magical enchantment.

But the real problem is that even if your sword magically killzates everything (whether from being so huge or just being a black blade of instant murderation), that's still not even particularly impressive by high level standards. Hitting people with a big sword so hard that they fall over is nice and all, but people seriously do that at first level. Being able to do that to 12th level monsters is better than most Fighters can pull off, but it's still a 1st level character concept. Actually competing at high levels means coming to grips with the fact that if a Beholder doesn't feel like floating into melee range, it just doesn't. And that a high level encounter with Orcs or Gnolls has over a hundred of the fuckers.

In short, not only does a high level character have to contend with the fact that level appropriate enemies can simply choose not to engage in melee combat, but that even killing an enemy with a sword may not put a statistically significant dent in the total opposition.

-Username17

[Caedrus]

Fighters also ought to have potent ways to affect the plot itself, and there are a number of ways you can go about that while staying outside of the realm of having them shoot lasers out of their eyes (punching lasers so that they fly way over there and blow up yon cliffside, however, is totally okay and a staple).

Things like planar travel, unbinding, divination like powers (a barbarian tracking someone by scent, a Fighter with a spidey sense, etc), running on water, hulk jumping, item crafting, commander/leadership abilities, and of course skills are just par for the course for Charles Atlas Superpowers folks. And I've never understood why people didn't want fighters to have those things either. Not even the skills.

[Prak]

well, I wasn't suggesting larger and larger weapons as the whole fix, but rather getting virtually bigger and bigger as part of the fix which would allow D&D fighters to do shit we see in video games and comics.

Having a 20' space and 10' reach beyond that is a lot of flexibility, especially if we give the characters the ability to, say, make one attack miss or nullified, because they're actually over there. Larger and larger improvised weapons is a way to allow fighters and barbarians to rip out tree trunks and throw them, sure, it's not a lot of damage, but the actual ability is pretty impressive, especially when you're still only ~6' tall.

However, I agree that we need to add a lot of actual powers that are flavoured correctly, like barbarians tracking by scent, but that's specifically, what, a third level power? A 20th level barbarian should be doing shit like calling legendary bears to come help fuck up their opponent, and throwing down fear effects like they're candy (as frightful presence is, what, maybe 8th level?)

[Koumei]

well, I wasn't suggesting larger and larger weapons as the whole fix, but rather getting virtually bigger and bigger as part of the fix which would allow D&D fighters to do shit we see in video games and comics.

Fighter types should be doing this at high levels, going the video game route

[Prak]

well, I wasn't suggesting larger and larger weapons as the whole fix, but rather getting virtually bigger and bigger as part of the fix which would allow D&D fighters to do shit we see in video games and comics.

Fighter types should be doing this at high levels, going the video game route

What is this I don't even

[Username17]

well, I wasn't suggesting larger and larger weapons as the whole fix, but rather getting virtually bigger and bigger as part of the fix which would allow D&D fighters to do shit we see in video games and comics.

Having a 20' space and 10' reach beyond that is a lot of flexibility, especially if we give the characters the ability to, say, make one attack miss or nullified, because they're actually over there. Larger and larger improvised weapons is a way to allow fighters and barbarians to rip out tree trunks and throw them, sure, it's not a lot of damage, but the actual ability is pretty impressive, especially when you're still only ~6' tall.

However, I agree that we need to add a lot of actual powers that are flavoured correctly, like barbarians tracking by scent, but that's specifically, what, a third level power? A 20th level barbarian should be doing shit like calling legendary bears to come help fuck up their opponent, and throwing down fear effects like they're candy (as frightful presence is, what, maybe 8th level?)

That's exactly the problem though. Bears, even legendary bears, are things that can be dealt with by 5th level adventurers. Summon a legendary bear against a Beholder and it is a fucking liability. Tracking by scent is something that a 1st level character can do with the right feat, and literally any first level character can do by "getting a dog". The first fear effect comes online at... 1st level. And the only reason we don't wank to it like we do to the heavy hitters like fear and charm monster is because it has a fucking hit die cap.

But again and still, "use your first level abilities on monsters of your current level" is something that you were literally and specifically doing at first level. It's nothing special. It's not even different. Basically when it comes down to it, every single thing you were talking about for the 20th level Barbarian was something that 1st level characters could already do, except presumably you intended to scale the actual damage bonuses and save DCs to the level.

When you make higher level abilities, it is not enough to assure the audience that the little white numbers coming up every time the characters act are larger than they were before. They have to be qualitatively more epic in some fashion. Palette swapping animal companions or raising the save DC on your fearsome shout are not abilities, they are accounting.

-Username17

[Koumei]

What is this I don't even

It's Dio Brandow, from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. You said vidya games, so I produced someone from a fighting game. He can:
[*]Freeze time
[*]Use a shadow-form to punch very rapidly
[*]Throw many knives at people during time-freeze, that still hit
[*]Drop steamrollers on people

That I know of, there is yet no class that can drop steamrollers on people.

[Lago PARANOIA]

What is this I don't even

It's Dio Brandow, from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. You said vidya games, so I produced someone from a fighting game. He can:
[*]Freeze time
[*]Use a shadow-form to punch very rapidly
[*]Throw many knives at people during time-freeze, that still hit
[*]Drop steamrollers on people

That I know of, there is yet no class that can drop steamrollers on people.

And that's only if you count his Stardust Crusader powers. Dio is also a VAMPIRE so in addition to that he has Freezing Touch, super-regeneration, parasitic vampire worms that he can activate to kill rambunctious underlings, standard 'enhanced' strength/agility/etc., firing blood lasers out of his eyeballs, being able to suck a victim dry of blood as a free action as long as he's touching them with his fingers, and so on.

Of course the power inflation in Stardust Crusaders is so huge that the only one of his vampire powers that really means anything is his regeneration. Which of course balanced by his weakness of sunlight or ripple instantly killing him.

[Prak]

ah, yeah, see, my vidya game familiarity is more stuff like this, or this.

...or this but that's completely unhelpful here...

But anyway, so basically we're using video game characters to display what we think high level characters need to be like, right? I mean, sure, we can use other stuff too, but mostly video games are what we've brought up.

But hell, we could use wuxian films too, and give martial characters wuxian "flight" at 8th level or whatever, and let them travel Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon or Hulk style. Yes, that's mid level, but it's an example.

[Caedrus]

However, I agree that we need to add a lot of actual powers that are flavoured correctly, like barbarians tracking by scent, but that's specifically, what, a third level power?

In 3.5e, it's a first level maneuver.

[Prak]

Eh, I knew it was low, just not how low.

[Ice9]

I think something that that would help is if warriors were actually good with all weapons. Now I know what you're thinking - "Warriors already kill things fast, that isn't the problem!" But usually, they do it by using force-multipliers and melee-specific stuff, so when they can't use their greatsword they enter suck-town. And relying on full-attacks is no good either, as long as those full-attacks preclude movement and can't be readied.

For instance, the flying beholder thing. With the ability to throw javelins as effectively as they swing a sword, and ready them at full effectiveness, flying foes are no problem. Beholder comes into LoS, Beholder gets impaled and dies.

Not a complete solution, obviously, just a component.

[Red_Rob]

"use your first level abilities on monsters of your current level" is something that you were literally and specifically doing at first level. It's nothing special. It's not even different. Basically when it comes down to it, every single thing you were talking about for the 20th level Barbarian was something that 1st level characters could already do, except presumably you intended to scale the actual damage bonuses and save DCs to the level.

When you make higher level abilities, it is not enough to assure the audience that the little white numbers coming up every time the characters act are larger than they were before. They have to be qualitatively more epic in some fashion. Palette swapping animal companions or raising the save DC on your fearsome shout are not abilities, they are accounting.

The problem is that your powers have to have roughly the same level of effect at 20th level on a 20th level monster as they did at 1st level to a 1st level monster if "level appopriate opposition" is to mean anything.

If your level 20 power involves screaming so loud you throw everyone within 500 feet of you back 50' and level every structure in the area, your opponents have to be able to take that or they aren't level 20 opposition. You don't want to make level 20 into "initiative wins the fight".

[Avoraciopoctules]

Starting a new thread to keep from derailing the other one further.

So, okay, assuming we keep monsters or casters as our benchmark. What should the non-caster characters be doing at level 10 or 15 or 20?

I like to use monsters when trying to see what crazy stuff is appropriate for people at particular levels.

----------------------------------------
CR 8:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swar ... lwaspSwarm

At level 10, you should be able to play a dude that beats monsters up, then turns into a hard to-hit form (ethereal, swarm, something) and takes over their bodies. Stunlocking multiple people at once is possible.
----------------------------------------
CR 9:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inev ... m#zelekhut

At level 10, a noncasting adventurer with flight, arbitrary status effect immunities, high AC, multiple reach weapon attacks, and useful (but not awe-inspiring) levels of fast healing, spell resistance, DR, is viable. Powerful at-will ranged SoDs, divination effects, and social encounter powers make the adventurer into more than just a kiting turtle.
----------------------------------------
CR 9:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm#frostGiant

This was actually covered in the Tomes. The Frost Giant is big, tough, and has a decent ranged attack. Throw on some kind of aura of cold damage + slowdown, and maybe some miscellaneous frost powers, and you could have a surprisingly powerful character that contributes in many encounters in the teens.
----------------------------------------
CR 8:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mohrg.htm

A level 10 adventurer with an effectively infinite army of tiny men with arbitrary immunities is theoretically viable, but incredibly cumbersome if game mechanics are not streamlined. In addition, stunlocking on top of regular attacks.

[Koumei]

I still feel the Undertaker is a good point of reference for acceptable Warrior powers (teleportation, calling lightning down, slamming people into Hell, hitting them so hard he takes their soul, sudden darkness), though some might say it's because in D&D he's a Lich (moar liek Undertaken, amirite?)

[Username17]

The problem is that your powers have to have roughly the same level of effect at 20th level on a 20th level monster as they did at 1st level to a 1st level monster if "level appopriate opposition" is to mean anything.

If your level 20 power involves screaming so loud you throw everyone within 500 feet of you back 50' and level every structure in the area, your opponents have to be able to take that or they aren't level 20 opposition. You don't want to make level 20 into "initiative wins the fight".

You are contradicting yourself there. At first level, a sleep spell or a greatsword hit will fucking end the fight. Having your weaponry continue do so much damage that you one hit everything is simply not falling behind.

But as things go up in level, the tactical field becomes larger and more varied. Even if your enemies are just using attacks with Medium Range, they can still engage you from 2 more squares away every level (and as they go up in level they actually get more long and enlarged range options on top of that). And a significantly higher proportion of your enemies are going to be in the air, on the Ethereal plane, hidden in smoke, tunneling through the earth, or under water as levels rise. While an Aboleth is a ludicrously overpowered monster for its level (as most underwater monsters are for some reason), remember that it is under water. And yet, it uses save or dies that affect people on the ground.

And that's just the battlefield. The adventure itself now takes place in other dimensions, at the bottom of the sea, on top of a solid cloud, or simply on the far side of the planet. Characters need to be able to travel to and survive in environments that the 1st level versions of themselves literally did not know about. And the puzzles are similarly more varied and epic. It is no longer enough to show the miller that your team has some swords so he might as well put his trust in you rather than waiting for the king's guard who are like 2 weeks from the next patrol and then wander around in the woods until you get attacked by gnolls so you can track them back to their cave. You're now supposed to convince a council of dragons that you need to assemble the Rod of Seven Parts, and the latest demon raid began and ended with a teleport ambush so that there aren't any dam foot prints to track.

Having a comparable situation at 20th level to 1st level would entail hitting things so hard that they fucking die. A 1st level greatsword user does 2d6+4 damage before optimization or class features (max strength on an Orc Barbarian and you do 2d6 + 12) and a Gnoll Warrior has 11 hit points. But it also means having a list of terrain survival, battlefield control, and plot manipulation as long as your arm. Not to pull ahead, just to stay even with what you could do at 1st level with no character sheet.

-Username17

[Caedrus]

I think something that that would help is if warriors were actually good with all weapons. Now I know what you're thinking - "Warriors already kill things fast, that isn't the problem!" But usually, they do it by using force-multipliers and melee-specific stuff, so when they can't use their greatsword they enter suck-town. And relying on full-attacks is no good either, as long as those full-attacks preclude movement and can't be readied.

For instance, the flying beholder thing. With the ability to throw javelins as effectively as they swing a sword, and ready them at full effectiveness, flying foes are no problem. Beholder comes into LoS, Beholder gets impaled and dies.

Not a complete solution, obviously, just a component.

One of the biggest problems with a number of things in 3.5e in my mind is the way certain things scale relative to the other options available to the character. For example, rather than having Bull Rush, Trip, and so forth all as things on your options list, the Trip Fighter only ever wants to use Trip. If you get +X to one damage dealing option via a feat, all your other damage dealing options are -X by comparison to it.

By contrast, when a Wizard picks up Web, it's just as good as any of his other level-appropriate options. There's a huge difference here between the vertical advancement of single options versus the gaining of new scaled options.

[LR]

The adventure itself now takes place in other dimensions, at the bottom of the sea, on top of a solid cloud, or simply on the far side of the planet. Characters need to be able to travel to and survive in environments that the 1st level versions of themselves literally did not know about.

Something like this?