Requesting suggestions on making LotR work with 3.5/PF

[Bihlbo]

A friend of mine wants to run a Lord of the Rings game! We are all familiar with D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder, which he prefers, so that's the direction he's leaning. This presents some problems that beg fixes, and I'd like to present him with options - which is where you come in. I'd love some suggestions on how to make a 3.5-based game work in LotR.

He is really burned out on games with house rules, so while he is trying to stay as close to PF as possible, D&D is very poorly-suited for representing LotR so he is implementing some limitations:

• *Because they don't fit the setting, he's not allowing cleric, druid, monk, sorcerer, or wizard.
  *Ranger fits fine but spellcasting doesn't suit them so I'm not sure what he's doing with those, but probably finding some substitute for spells.
  *Paladins are strongly discouraged and we probably won't find any npc paladins.
  *Because the non-Gandalf characters from the books are best represented in the system as levels 3-6 he's planning on advancement being extremely slow and capping at 10.
  *He's considering either removing cure spells from the bard or changing them to vigor spells from SC to reduce in-combat healing.

Without the pure casters the inherant cheese and horror of the system is greatly lessened, and without access to upper levels the physical combat game should stay relevant.

Alternate to this I suggested he check out E6 since it's goal is pretty much the same as his for this game. I'd love to hear some thoughts on this too.

[RobbyPants]

I know Complete Warrior has a spell-less Ranger variant. It's crap, but it's published.

He'll probably want to remove things like wands and scrolls. Otherwise, the bard will just stock up on Lesser Vigor wands to spam healing, and that's not very LotR like.

I don't know how true to LotR he wants to stay. If he keeps magic items scarce, he'll want to cap the game at a lower level than 10. You'll quickly run into problems otherwise. As you mentioned, E6 might be a good place to start.

[sabs]

He should use Pathfinder (sigh)
Get rid of all the classes with spells.

There's a ranger character class in Iron Kingdoms which should work rather well.
For bards, get rid of their spells, and just keep their Bardic Knowledge/Songs.

[PoliteNewb]

To be honest, 3.5 is not well suited to LotR style play...but an E6 setup is probably your best bet. I would suggest giving out a lot of feats; they can often provide fun or interesting abilities, without too much power.

Also...no cleric, druid, wizard, or sorcerer? What's Gandalf? Saruman? Sauron? Elrond?

I would handle magic-users by just reducing spell use (probably coming up with a non-Vancian system), increasing casting times, and limiting spell lists to something reasonable.

If you want a d20 but non-3.5 option, check out "The Black Company" RPG for a new system of magic, which I think would actually fit LotR pretty well.

I don't know how true to LotR he wants to stay. If he keeps magic items scarce, he'll want to cap the game at a lower level than 10. You'll quickly run into problems otherwise.

He doesn't need to cap the game, just tailor the opposition. Hell, you can (technically) still be fighting orcs at level 10 if you want, and you can fight them just fine with no magic items.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Hey, even Gandalf is probably only level 6.

No healing will make for very long cut scenes, though. Aren't there a few Middle Earth RPGs out there? I have no idea how good they are, but I'm interested in knowing why your DM wants to use PF.

If you have characters like Tom Bumbleville, spell casting bards probably aren't too unreasonable. I could totally see a D&D-based game with levels from 1 to 6 and 'classes' that are designed to be setting appropriate. It wouldn't even be that difficult.

You'd have Wizard (Glandorf; a druid/wizard), Elven Warrior (Legolass; archer & mobility fighter), Elven Sorcerer (all the elven sorcerers; elf-sorcerer-ish), Dwarf Warrior (Gimbly; one-half-man poleaxe hedge), Hobbit Adventurer (Fatso, Smiley, Elijah Wood; thieves all of them), Bard (Tom Bumbleville; human-ish druid/bard), and Ranger (Aragon; human leader-type fighter).

[hogarth]

Hey, even Gandalf is probably only level 6.

No healing will make for very long cut scenes, though.

For what it's worth, Pathfinder allows healing wounds with the Heal skill + a healer's kit ("Treat Deadly Wounds") on top of using the Heal skill for long term care.

There's also a spell-less ranger variant in Pathfinder's Advanced Player's Guide:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/coreClasses/ranger.html#skirmisher

I'd definitely go with a variant of E6. Maybe use the Adept NPC class as a spellcaster? Or the Pathfinder Witch class, if you want something beefier?

[Hieronymous Rex]

Aren't there a few Middle Earth RPGs out there? I have no idea how good they are, but I'm interested in knowing why your DM wants to use PF.

Middle Earth Roleplay and The Lord of the Rings RPG (a CODA derived game) off the top of my head.

For what it's worth, the CODA game did a good job of listing all of the magic effects described in the books (which, if you wanted to alter spell lists, would be a good place to start).

[Juton]

If you have the CODA version of the LotR game that is probably easier than trying to make D&D work for LotR. The d20 Wheel of Time of time book is also closer to the power level of LotR and should work fine through level 10. If you're dead set of 3.5, like others have mentioned use E6.

[ubernoob]

Why not do 4E? It's much closer to LotR right out of the box.

[Username17]

Why not do 4E? It's much closer to LotR right out of the box.

This is actually true.

You'd want to do something about the fact that things are extremely boring, but characters do gradually increase in swording ability without ever being able to solve problems in any meaningful way other than MTP + extrapolations of normal human abilities since they have no out of combat abilities worth mentioning. However, a big problem for 4e in this instance is that the guy is seriously considering removing Cure Light Wounds on the grounds that he doesn't want healing in combat. Cure Light Wounds in 3e is fucking worthless and no one cares, but he is seriously worried about it anyway, which means that he would probably explode in Nerd Rage when he saw the combat healing in 4e - since that's like the entire game.

-Username17

[Bihlbo]

I don't know how true to LotR he wants to stay. If he keeps magic items scarce, he'll want to cap the game at a lower level than 10. You'll quickly run into problems otherwise. As you mentioned, E6 might be a good place to start.

Extremely close, and I mentioned the same thing. A Mithril chain shirt and a +1 short sword are epic and super-awesome.

Also...no cleric, druid, wizard, or sorcerer? What's Gandalf? Saruman? Sauron? Elrond?

They are all NPCs. Gandalf is a myeair spirit, or something - he shouldn't be built with class levels and the interesting bits of the game should be played on the soldier/hobbit level where goblins and orcs are not a laugable nuisance. This of course is debateable, but is the common interpretation and also in line with the opinion of the guy who wants to run the game.

If you want a d20 but non-3.5 option, check out "The Black Company" RPG for a new system of magic, which I think would actually fit LotR pretty well.

Noted, I'll have to take a look at that thanks!

Why not do 4E? It's much closer to LotR right out of the box.

This is actually true.

You'd want to do something about the fact that things are extremely boring, but characters do gradually increase in swording ability without ever being able to solve problems in any meaningful way other than MTP + extrapolations of normal human abilities since they have no out of combat abilities worth mentioning. However, a big problem for 4e in this instance is that the guy is seriously considering removing Cure Light Wounds on the grounds that he doesn't want healing in combat. Cure Light Wounds in 3e is fucking worthless and no one cares, but he is seriously worried about it anyway, which means that he would probably explode in Nerd Rage when he saw the combat healing in 4e - since that's like the entire game.

There wouldn't be even an ounce of support for 4e in this group, but I get your point, and the ironic thing is that this group is actually a big fan of MTP. I don't think any of us care enough about 4e to nerd rage about it for any reason.

Healing spells in combat, even the worthless ones, are being axed for two main reasons: It's a trap option in combat so let's treat it like what it is, and far less healing overall is the goal. I don't like the idea that we're going to seriously be carrying wounds around with us for days waiting on natural healing and herbs to do the trick, but that's what he's after.

Incidentally, this group has been together for a few years after playing a pretty epic Midnight game. Since we're all familiar with it I'm guessing that setting's class wildlander will be considered for a magic-less ranger replacement (better in every way). Also, and this is the main reason I bring this up, he's considering using that setting's charms and herbalism options, which were made for a low-magic setting and do a pretty good job of creating interesting and non-game-breaking options for things like healing and bonuses. Thematically it fits well with a setting where a leaf can be used to heal a hobbit, but in general I'm a fan of it for what it's trying to be.

So that's a few more additions to the old houserule bucket that he wants to be mostly empty. At least a class and subsystems aren't ingrained in everything and overly difficult to deal with. But you guys are pushing me more toward recommending E6 strongly.

Speaking of which, can anyone point me to the best source for E6 information please?

Love you guys, hugs.

[Josh_Kablack]

1. Start the game at apprentice levels, as per the DMG multiclass at first-level rules. Samwise starts out as a gardener.

2. Max level is 6th for PCs. Above 6th level you only advance leadership scores for how big an army you can raise and command. It's a big freakin' deal that Gandalf knows Fireball.

3. Max level/CR is maybe like 10th for major antagonists like Morgoth or other fallen godlings. Smaug and the Balrog of Moria are like CR 7, Saurun is maybe 9.

4. Within those constraints, major magic items and artifacts actually get to be MORE common than the default D&D assumptions. The crazy game-breaking spells are only found through widgets left from the prior ages.

That really covers most of it.

[Prak]

Strictly speaking, Gandalf doesn't have any levels of the wizard class. At best he has levels of something more akin to the Witch class in DMG, but really his, and Saruman's, and Sauron's, casting come from them being, essentially, angels. Saruman probably has levels of Sage or something equally worthless, while Sauron and Gandalf seem to have levels of a martial class.

*disclaimer: I've only seen the movies, read most of The Hobbit and Fellowship, and read various assorted info secondhand online*

[tussock]

E6, more items (magic boots, magic cloak, magic light, magic swords, magic armour, magic clasp, magic food, magic permanent bigness, magic scrying, magic boats, a magic horse, magic rings, magic staves, magic, magic, magic).

Oh, and E6 handles up to about single CR 13 foes according to the author, you get ever more feats past 6th level, and maybe steal an 8th level capstone ability or two with them. You've just got to be clever about it, because the big guys can kill you real quick. Also suggests getting higher level spells as rituals like in Unearthed Arcana.

Without the caster classes you could probably do 8th, the protagonists should be able to solo a troll or hill giant unbuffed by the end.

[RobbyPants]

Healing spells in combat, even the worthless ones, are being axed for two main reasons: It's a trap option in combat so let's treat it like what it is, and far less healing overall is the goal. I don't like the idea that we're going to seriously be carrying wounds around with us for days waiting on natural healing and herbs to do the trick, but that's what he's after.

He might be cool with some variant where half of the damage you guys take is converted to non-lethal. This way, fights play out about the same in terms of how much damage it takes to drop someone, but you heal half of your damage at a much faster rate (24 times faster). This way, you still have wounds that persist (HP damage), but the rest can be considered to be bruises/fatigue/morale/whatever.

It keeps you from having to rest for days to recuperate, but it also penalizes you if he decides to add some sense of urgency where you can't rest.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Strictly speaking, Gandalf doesn't have any levels of the wizard class. At best he has levels of something more akin to the Witch class in DMG, but really his, and Saruman's, and Sauron's, casting come from them being, essentially, angels. Saruman probably has levels of Sage or something equally worthless, while Sauron and Gandalf seem to have levels of a martial class.

*disclaimer: I've only seen the movies, read most of The Hobbit and Fellowship, and read various assorted info secondhand online*

Strictly speaking, none of the characters of LotR have levels in any class. But a 5th level druid can call lightning and summon a giant eagle.

[Hieronymous Rex]

He might be cool with some variant where half of the damage you guys take is converted to non-lethal. This way, fights play out about the same in terms of how much damage it takes to drop someone, but you heal half of your damage at a much faster rate (24 times faster). This way, you still have wounds that persist (HP damage), but the rest can be considered to be bruises/fatigue/morale/whatever.

Star Wars D20 (either of the versions pre-Saga) used a hitpoint system like this: you get a number of Vitality Points that rise with level, and a number of Wound Points equal to your Constitution score. Damage is dealt to VP first. You die when you run out of WP, regardless of how many VP you have. Critical hits are not multiplied; they are dealt directly to WP.

[Mandella]

Maybe not helpful, since it is neither neither D&D or Pathfinder, but you might want to search Ebay or your favorite online out-of-print pdf archive for Iron Crown Enterprise's Middle Earth roleplaying series.

My group had some fun with that back in the day, and it is expressly designed for handling low magic settings.

[angelfromanotherpin]

ICE's MERP is really not very good. In addition to being crazy chart-heavy Rolemaster, it also gives basically everyone spellcasting and gives magical properties to in-world objects we are expressly told are not magical. It had a lot of interesting fluff, and wasn't afraid to fill in the gaps with their own takes on things, but it's highly uneven at best.

The most Tolkienien system I've ever seen is Burning Wheel.

[RobbyPants]

He might be cool with some variant where half of the damage you guys take is converted to non-lethal. This way, fights play out about the same in terms of how much damage it takes to drop someone, but you heal half of your damage at a much faster rate (24 times faster). This way, you still have wounds that persist (HP damage), but the rest can be considered to be bruises/fatigue/morale/whatever.

Star Wars D20 (either of the versions pre-Saga) used a hitpoint system like this: you get a number of Vitality Points that rise with level, and a number of Wound Points equal to your Constitution score. Damage is dealt to VP first. You die when you run out of WP, regardless of how many VP you have. Critical hits are not multiplied; they are dealt directly to WP.

If this is like the VP/WP system in UA, then it makes combat more deadly, not less deadly; at least regarding crits. I'm talking about improving survivability without magical healing.

[Hieronymous Rex]

If this is like the VP/WP system in UA, then it makes combat more deadly, not less deadly; at least regarding crits. I'm talking about improving survivability without magical healing.

This is true. What I meant to communicate was that making a hard split between the "abstract" hitpoints (VP) and bodily hitpoints (WP) would allow more plausible "speed-healing"; that is to say, it is easy to justify resting the night and getting 2/3 of your HP back if that part is assumed to not be bodily injury.

[TheFlatline]

Maybe not helpful, since it is neither neither D&D or Pathfinder, but you might want to search Ebay or your favorite online out-of-print pdf archive for Iron Crown Enterprise's Middle Earth roleplaying series.

My group had some fun with that back in the day, and it is expressly designed for handling low magic settings.

MERPS from ICE is based on Rollmaster... Which we used to jokingly call "Chartmaster" since all you did was look through charts all day. Though it might not be a bad idea to crib a PDF of it if you can find it and look at it for ideas and power levels.

The Black Company isn't a bad place to peek either.

I'd suggest to stay the f*ck away from Wheel of Time. Everyone agrees it's really broken within the system and needed another edition, which never happened.

I'd suggest E6, or GURPS if you weren't wedded to D20.

[Blicero]

This is true. What I meant to communicate was that making a hard split between the "abstract" hitpoints (VP) and bodily hitpoints (WP) would allow more plausible "speed-healing"; that is to say, it is easy to justify resting the night and getting 2/3 of your HP back if that part is assumed to not be bodily injury.

This. My 3.x houserules essentially use the VP/WP distinction, and I find it works wonders for not requiring PCs to carry around wands to glostick each other back to full hp after a fight.

The best thing to do with it, though, is just to either remove the "crits go straight to WP" rule, or change it to require something like 2 consecutive 20s or whatever, because 1/20 attacks killing someone instantly is way too often for most games.

[Bihlbo]

He might be cool with some variant where half of the damage you guys take is converted to non-lethal. This way, fights play out about the same in terms of how much damage it takes to drop someone, but you heal half of your damage at a much faster rate (24 times faster).

We used this in the game we just ended and it was fantastic. (Gyst: your armor bonus to AC = the amount of lethal damage that shifts to non-lethal from each attack, if DR could be applied to the initial damage. End result: a healing spell is actually a good option in combat if you heal someone in good armor because it does double duty.) It's one of the best house rules I've ever used in a 3.5 game.

ICE's MERP is really not very good.

Yeah, our group's already familiar with it. One guy had a character die while trying to get out of an open window just because of his die rolls. Another had to roll on three charts to find out how good a night's sleep he got and he ended up blind or something. We certainly wouldn't consider using this system.

[Prak]

Strictly speaking, Gandalf doesn't have any levels of the wizard class. At best he has levels of something more akin to the Witch class in DMG, but really his, and Saruman's, and Sauron's, casting come from them being, essentially, angels. Saruman probably has levels of Sage or something equally worthless, while Sauron and Gandalf seem to have levels of a martial class.

*disclaimer: I've only seen the movies, read most of The Hobbit and Fellowship, and read various assorted info secondhand online*

Strictly speaking, none of the characters of LotR have levels in any class. But a 5th level druid can call lightning and summon a giant eagle.

It can also turn into animals. While Shadowfax may be Gandalf's animal companion, I don't recall seeing Gandalf turn into a boar to gut an orc.