Whatever Happened to CAN?

TheWorid · Post by **TheWorid** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Exactly what it says in the title. I really liked the idea, but I don't see it discussed anymore.

Did it just die with TNE? I wasn't around for the original discussions (although I've read them), and "CAN" is a hard term to search for.

Spike · Post by **Spike** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:42 pm

Hm... I opened this thread to see what the title meant. Interestingly, it refers to exactly what the title says.

I'm caught in a recursive loop... somebody toss me a line here...

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:55 pm

CAN is "Combat Advantage Number" or something. I last saw it in 'Status effects should make you easier to kill'.

http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51898

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:14 pm

Combat Advantage Number. Here's the original thread.

Edit: Ninja'd by quite a bit. Damned tabbed browsers!

Double Edit: Actually, it looks like I linked to the original CAN thread and RadiantPhoenix linked to a different one, so it wasn't a total ninja.

TheWorid · Post by **TheWorid** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:09 pm

I wasn't asking for what it is; I said that I've read the threads. What I'm asking about is if anyone is actually doing anything with it, or if it's just something that very occasionally gets mentioned. I was interested in possibly using a version of it in the game I'm working on, so I'm curious if anyone else has implemented it or has any new thoughts on it.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:25 pm

TheWorid wrote:I wasn't asking for what it is; I said that I've read the threads. What I'm asking about is if anyone is actually doing anything with it, or if it's just something that very occasionally gets mentioned. I was interested in possibly using a version of it in the game I'm working on, so I'm curious if anyone else has implemented it or has any new thoughts on it.

I was sort of going to implement it in d20 Iron, but I could never really figure out what CAN is, even from reading the threads, so I didn't.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:27 pm

TheWorid wrote:I wasn't asking for what it is; I said that I've read the threads.

I was responding to Spike's question.

TheWorid · Post by **TheWorid** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:46 pm

RobbyPants wrote:I was responding to Spike's question.

Ah, I see. My mistake.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:07 pm

The book I am most working on at the moment is alt.war: SEAsia Edition. That uses a fixed hit points soak system of damage.

But the second thing I am working on is Doubt. Doubt will probably have a pure condition damage system. So yeah, it will have Combat Advantage Numbers in it.

-Username17

Manxome · Post by **Manxome** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:14 am

I'm using something resembling CAN in a board game I am intermittently developing, but when I mentioned it on the forum before I got a lot of negative reactions to my adaptation (though many were based on the critic's incorrect math or details that I explicitly said weren't final).

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:13 am

Wasn't it brought up before in a discussion about HP, Attacking, and damage? I think it was one of Lago's rants.

the_taken · Post by **the_taken** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:25 am

Using something similar to CAN in CandyLand. Two tracks...

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:28 pm

I just realized that CAN is kind of like a more generalized version of this:
http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/UA:Injury

I'm not sure if I'm the only one who didn't realize that until just now.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:51 am

Hey, I'm trying to conceptualize CAN, and I'm a little confused (conflicting messages in the linked threads) about how it works. Is it as follows?

You have 2 CANs, offensive and defensive. These can be improved or weakened if you have good/bad positioning (higher ground, surprised, etc.). They are also affected by your statuses.

When you take a hit that would deal damage, you instead are hit with a certain tier of effect. Tier 1 effects give you -1 to both CANs and are the equivalent of being winded. Tier 2 effects give you -2 pealty to both CANs and are the equivalent of a solid cut. Tier 3 effects are a huge blow and give you a -3 penalty to both CANs. Tier 4 effects are death.

All CAN penalties stack, but the effects do not (you can only be winded once, but you can be hit by Tier 1 effects twice for -1(2) = -2 CAN).

Manxome · Post by **Manxome** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:32 am

In my opinion, the essential idea is that you die when a single attack hits you hard enough instead of when you accumulate a fixed amount of damage. Attacks that hurt you but don't kill you make you more vulnerable to future attacks (since they definitionally cannot take away HP). Theoretically, there is no limit to the amount of wounds or other effects you can be under at one time, though for a particular attacker there is a limit beyond which the next attack is guaranteed to kill you because the attacker's relative bonus is so large.

Within the proposed system, CAN is just your attack bonus/AC. It's added to your attack roll and compared to your opponent's number to see whether you hit, and how hard.

I believe there were proposals that specified the dice rolled, the bonus range, the number of degrees of success (and the required margins to achieve them), a classification system for wound effects, and so forth. But I think people would still consider it a CAN system if you tweaked any or all of those.

MfA · Post by **MfA** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:43 pm

Why not simply have one value, lets call it ... morale? Consisting of your level, possible bonuses based on class/items/etc and penalties based on conditions and how far down you are on the hitpoint track. To get CAN for an attack simply subtract your opponents morale from your own.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:15 am

It's linked earlier in the thread, but basically, I believe CAN works like this: When you attack someone, you roll a die, add a number, maybe several numbers, and compare it to a table. This tells you what level of effect you have on your enemy. If you roll low enough, you don't hurt them, and if you roll high enough, you kill them. In between the two extremes lie a series of intermediate conditions that give a bonus to future rolls against that victim, making it easier to inflict nastier conditions in the future.

Did I get it right?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:04 am

RadiantPhoenix wrote:It's linked earlier in the thread, but basically, I believe CAN works like this: When you attack someone, you roll a die, add a number, maybe several numbers, and compare it to a table. This tells you what level of effect you have on your enemy. If you roll low enough, you don't hurt them, and if you roll high enough, you kill them. In between the two extremes lie a series of intermediate conditions that give a bonus to future rolls against that victim, making it easier to inflict nastier conditions in the future.

Did I get it right?

Tables may or may not be involved. You could have attack thresholds listed for the attack or any of a number of other systems. The point is that when you make an attack, the result is that you inflict a status effect, not that you subtract hit points. Statuses improve the chance that a subsequent inflicted effect will be an incapacitating effect.

The key is that you don't have to subtract or to keep track of different damage rolls from turn to turn. Injury can be handled by handing around actual cards or making check marks on your sheet or whatever.

-Username17

Manxome · Post by **Manxome** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:12 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:The key is that you don't have to subtract or to keep track of different damage rolls from turn to turn. Injury can be handled by handing around actual cards or making check marks on your sheet or whatever.

Technically, those methods work equally well for keeping track of standard HP damage, as long as the numbers are small enough. Games like Arkham Horror or Descent track damage by pushing around tokens representing your HP and that works just fine.

If that were the only goal, then using CAN would be needlessly complicated and rather arbitrary.

TheWorid · Post by **TheWorid** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:20 pm

RadiantPhoenix wrote:I just realized that CAN is kind of like a more generalized version of this:
http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/UA:Injury

I'm not sure if I'm the only one who didn't realize that until just now.

It's also kind of like the damage system used in Mutants and Masterminds.

Is there any way to do this in which CAN changes the effects/moves you can use or inflict, but not the actual numbers you add (which would be largely static)? For example, I have three advantages against my opponent (say, high ground, he is damaged, and I have a masterwork sword), and that lets me roll to use a Level 3 move against him, which means I'm rolling to see if I chop his head off rather than rolling for a Level 1 move that can only hit him in the arm or something.

Damage effects don't generally penalize Offensive CAN, right? Because otherwise the difference between CAN levels remains largely static between opponents of similar ability through the course of a battle.