If all you want to do is dungeon crawl, stay mid-level.

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Lago PARANOIA
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If all you want to do is dungeon crawl, stay mid-level.

Post by Lago PARANOIA »

One of the (many, many) things that ruined the concept of epic levels in 3rd and 4th Edition for me is that they heavily push the paradigm of your character being an all-powerful badass and epic being unlike anything you've ever seen... and still pushing your character into dungeon crawls.

Quite frankly, the idea of your existence still revolving around dungeon crawls and wilderness sprawls after a certain point stupid for many reasons.
  • First of all, it's repetitive from a gameplay standpoint. The combat density of someone going from level 1 to, say, level 15 is well over a hundred of them. It's quite likely that the DM and game designers have used every trick in the book in order to distract you from the formulatic writing (THIS dungeon is made of ice, THIS kingdom is run by kobolds, etc.) and if nothing else the gameplay could use a shaking up.
  • Second of all, it turns the concept of advancement into a joke. Series like Dragonball Z and Inuyasha catch a lot of shit for their power level inflation. The fact is that people can only advance in discrete units so much before the idea just becomes silly. +2 swords are cool, +4 swords are a sick joke. The game shouldn't even HAVE 8th level spells available, unless 8th level spells do something drastically different from lower-level spells. See below for an extension on this rant.
  • Third of all, it breaks willing suspension of disbelief. Keeping the plots fundamentally the same while continually ramping up the power level strains credibility.

    The fact of the matter is that paradigms change or at least they're supposed to change when people gain more power. A Green Arrow adventure is not the same as an Iron Man adventure which is not the same as a Dr. Strange adventure. Dense fog presents a serious obstacle to Green Arrow and a category five hurricane presents a serious obstacle to Iron Man. And a dungeon or overland travel simply should cease to be a meaningful challenge in of itself after a certain point. Look at that fucking 'what abilities do you need to eliminate in order to have dungeon crawls' thread; the question is ridiculous on its face, because high-level characters can just flat-out nuke a dungeon unless the DM is employing a 'lol no' plot device. The game needs new challenges after a certain point if you don't want to play SWAT vs. Trevor's Kindergarten class.

    I've noted here that it's easier to write inconveniences that will thwart King Arthur than Superman, hence why writers are in love with keeping things King Arthur level. But if you want to write stories for Superman then you need to stop pretending that crap like a typhoid epidemic or a broken bridge is an obstacle to him. This means getting rid of the idea that adventures can continue to revolve around dungeon crawls.
  • Fourth of all, it creates a fundamental disconnect between the mechanics and setting. Take the deities for instance. We know they can do things like spawn races from nothing and change the seasons and recreate entire continents. And given the power escalation that D&D wanks to it makes sense that eventually Steve the Crap-Covered farmer becomes the next sun god. And if you gain vast cosmic powers it should stand to reason that you should affect the setting in significant ways. I mean several threads have been written about the social engineering and economic manipulation that a mid-level wizard can do, don't you think that at a certain point it makes sense to cut the crap and just embrace the fact that a high-level character is a deity or a reasonable facsimile thereof?

    But D&D has gone out of its way to cockblock people at every turn. Very hypocritically too I might add; you can totally find Orcus and Kas and kill them, even in 4th Edition, but the game just pretends like that shit never happens and sends you on to dungeon #78. There's absolutely no reason for it, especially since the backstory of several deities is that they kicked someone's ass and stole their portfolio. There's no reason for the game to end, neither. SimCity, Dungeon Keeper, and ActRaiser, flawed as they are, gives you a reasonable deity-level feel and could be adapted to gameplay. 'The Adventures of the New Gods' can be ripe fodder for a game but will not happen if people are still in their dungeon crawl schtupfest.
So here's my proposal. After a certain point in the game, groups are faced with a choice. If they want to continue to wank to their precious dungeon crawls and pretend that getting the latest plus on their sword is the bee's knees, they can play E13 or E20 or whatever the fuck and stop sticking their dicks into high-level play. If you want Real Ultimate Power, like that unto the Gods, then congratulations. You're playing with the Big Boyz now.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by hogarth »

I agree that the idea that D&D heroes get more and more powerful and fight tougher and tougher monster ad infinitum is stupid.

I disagree that D&D would be an interesting game if you removed "dungeon crawls and wilderness sprawls". The rules are centered so strongly around bashing monsters; it would be like buying a refrigerator so that you can play with the box it came in.

I also disagree (to an extent) that being repetitive is somehow a fatal flaw in a game. If A & B are good games, I would much rather play Game A for a while (until I get tired of it) then switch and play Game B for a while, rather than have Game A and Game B glued together to make some kind of bizarre Frankengame that doesn't make much sense (like the 3.0 Epic Handbook). Scrabble is repetitive, in the sense that the rules and the board never change. So is Tetris. I get tired of both of those games from time to time, so I play something else for a while. But what is good about those games is that they both provide a "pure" experience; they don't try to tack on something unnecessary in order to keep the game "fresh".
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

hogarth wrote:rather than have Game A and Game B glued together to make some kind of bizarre Frankengame that doesn't make much sense (like the 3.0 Epic Handbook).
The Epic Level Handbook isn't a Game B. It's a Game A that tries to pretend to be a Game B. If it was actually a Game B it would've kicked ass, because the parts where it tried to dip its toes into Game B mode are the parts that people actually cared about.

Secondly, D&D is actually a successful example of a Game A and Game B being welded together. The life and times of a level 1 adventurer are just plain different than a level 8 and a level 15 adventurer. You could totally make separate games detailing the tribulations of their characters--and people have.

This leads me to believe that if the transition between squire --> paladin --> angel knight --> holy god is smooth and it makes sense then no one is going to notice nor care. Meaning that it's actually a bad idea to suddenly upend the game mechanics when people hit level 16. Social engineering and terraforming options should've been available to players for many levels beforehand. That way it won't be a sudden shock when the angel army bows down before the total character and requests orders.

The point remains thought that characters who steadfastly refuse to get with the new program should just plain not advance. If you can't get over the idea of Conan and Aragorn being a useless archetype after a certain point in the game then you should just plain not play past that point. Similarly, if you don't like the idea of Inuyasha and Darth Maul being useless archetypes after a certain point in the game, you should just plain not play past that point.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by hogarth »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
hogarth wrote:rather than have Game A and Game B glued together to make some kind of bizarre Frankengame that doesn't make much sense (like the 3.0 Epic Handbook).
The Epic Level Handbook isn't a Game B. It's a Game A that tries to pretend to be a Game B. If it was actually a Game B it would've kicked ass, because the parts where it tried to dip its toes into Game B mode are the parts that people actually cared about.
No, it's definitely a Frankenstein. The epic spell rules don't belong in the same game as a feat that gives +1 to your natural armor bonus, let alone the same book!
Lago PARANOIA wrote:The life and times of a level 1 adventurer are just plain different than a level 8 and a level 15 adventurer.
Well, yes, for certain values of "different". But it's still "dungeon crawls and wilderness sprawls", which you called "repetitive".
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Post by MGuy »

What does high level play look like for you Lago? I remember asking what "High-Level Plots" were before and I don't believe I got a really good definition. I do agree that regular dungeon crawling and wilderness sprawls should cease being important after you've gained the abilities to make them a non-factor but I don't really see plane/realm hopping demigods ass being really all that different from the other two outside of scale. I mean reasonably going from low to mid to high level is really just scaling. You're still just going around doing X for Y reason. Stabbing guards, demiliches, demigods in the face for whatever. The stakes going from the fate of a town to nation, to world, to plane. What exactly, outside of the epicness of your deeds, is really different between these tiers?
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Okay, here are some examples of what I regard as high-level plots and deeds.
  • You want to reshape a sapient race to your own design. This means you do things like permanently make all orcs smarter, give all humans wings, or for the truly ambitious create a race from scratch. Of course there are too many races already and making a new ubermensch means that you either need to convince some races to give up their ability or just kill them off.
  • A zombie apocalypse has completely overrun a continent. You could do the stupid thing and fight them OR you could merge the negative energy plane with the positive energy plane, which will not only stop the apocalypse but also cure all of the victims. Of course Orcus and Erythul and whatnot want to stop you so ready their armies.
  • Tired of the constant demon incursions and whatnot, you lead a crusade into hell. Demogorgon and Asmodeus are fought as quirky miniboss squads and the final battle they fuse into some mega ultra demon.
  • You, as long-dead good gods were banished to the FUCKING MOON. Rather than curse your fate, why not make it livable and slowly grow your magic?
  • Invasion by the Outer Realm. ... hey, not all of these can be uber-complicated.
  • You are really sick and tired of watching people dig in the dirt with sticks for hundreds of generations, so you confer with the God of Wisdom and come up with vast plans to improve the lot of your followers. It'll take two-hundred years and will require knocking down concepts like the divine right of kings and magical superiority (so expect Bane and Vecna to come for your ass) but the reward is that you start the Industrial Revolution.
  • Since in the last 15 years three mages on three separate occasions have nearly kickstarted the apocalypse, it's time to do something drastic. You are going to go to the elemental plane of shadow and beat up several incarnations of magic. Doing this means that blaster spells will flat-out cease to exist for a couple hundred years, which will even affect your own powers!
  • Zeus or some other kind of asshole sky fairy has gone mad with power and is threatening to blast everyone. Rather than kill him off, you journey to the center of his mind and fight impossible mental landscape monsters that do things like destroy the concept of moving in three dimensions.
  • Suddenly, Super Duper Ice Age. Something went wrong with your planet's orbit and now everything is all cold. This has killed off a bunch of your worshippers, sapping everyone's powers but the Winter Queen who decides to declare herself as ruler of the solar system. You as the gods try to get all of the survivors together and channel their energy in order to stop the Winter Queen and/or put the planet closer to the sun. As a stopgap measure you also open up a bunch of portals to the elemental plane of fire.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Re: If all you want to do is dungeon crawl, stay mid-level.

Post by tzor »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Quite frankly, the idea of your existence still revolving around dungeon crawls and wilderness sprawls after a certain point stupid for many reasons.
You can take the notion of dungeon crawls and wilderness sprawls into the lower portions of the high levels and you might even take them higher, but it requires a very different mindset indeed. Places where rivers of molten lava flow like water, or other seemingly fantastic places where low level characters would die within a few rounds from the environment alone combined with other fantastic elements that by requirement must be more fantastic than any power currently posessed by the adventurers is a necessary requirement. The latter, however poses the biggest problem for the high level adventure.
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Post by hogarth »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Okay, here are some examples of what I regard as high-level plots and deeds.
[snip]
That's all very well and good (if not my particular taste). But trying to shoehorn that kind of stuff into D&D is exactly how they ended up with a schizophrenic book like the Epic Handbook, where they couldn't figure out if epic characters are supposed to be fighting aborted god-fetuses or giant spiders (but, you know, really big spiders).
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Post by MGuy »

Some of your plots seem to come down to MTP. Making a race, the moon livable, the industrial revolution. That really sounds like something you'd just sit around and make up.

Some of them just seem like epic versions of lower level plots. Stopping Demon Incursions, Zombie apocalypse, God Killing, even gathering survivors for a ritual, all sound like things you'd do at a lower level without the flair of extra details mostly involving where its taking place at (different planes/the moon) and bigger threats (Gods).
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Post by hogarth »

MGuy wrote:Some of your plots seem to come down to MTP. Making a race, the moon livable, the industrial revolution. That really sounds like something you'd just sit around and make up.
They're not necessarily Magical Tea Party (I'm sure you could make up a game where you had rules to do those sorts of things), but they're certainly not D&D.
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Post by RobbyPants »

hogarth wrote:
MGuy wrote:Some of your plots seem to come down to MTP. Making a race, the moon livable, the industrial revolution. That really sounds like something you'd just sit around and make up.
They're not necessarily Magical Tea Party (I'm sure you could make up a game where you had rules to do those sorts of things), but they're certainly not D&D.
Yeah, that's kind of how I feel.

My first thought was "what are the rules for combining the positive and negative energy planes".
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

MGuy wrote: Some of your plots seem to come down to MTP. Making a race, the moon livable, the industrial revolution. That really sounds like something you'd just sit around and make up.
It's SimEarth-style stuff. Definitely a change in paradigm, but also definitely something that you can simulate with TTRPGs.
MGuy wrote: Some of them just seem like epic versions of lower level plots.
No shit. Like I told hogarth the game shouldn't just completely sweep away everything that came before at some unit of advancement? Actually stopping a Zombie Apocalypse that's already conquered a continent is a nice segue into raise Lemuria or Atlantis and deal with the sudden influx of new spells, races, and gods.

Moreover, the real defining line between mid-level and high-level play is that you are actually the impetus for solving monumental problems. Yeah, a mid-level character can totally save the world from Zombie Apocalypse but that's only because they have fuck-off MacGuffins and the DM was nice enough to compress the plot so that killing the demilich king will make things all better. Big deal! Even Steve the Crap-Covered farmer can save the world if you tell him that putting his hand on the panel will stop the meteors from falling and for some reason it'll only work for people with his DNA and brain pattern.

In high-level play, if you can't stop the Zombie Apocalypse with the tools given to you, then some Plot Device of the Week isn't going to save you. This obviously means that you either need to really MTP things or you need to make the game universe and high-level powers really specific and consistent so people are aware that you can actually use Epic Spells to create a Zombie Cure ritual or that you can open enough Gates into the Negative Energy Plane to fuck up low-level undead.

(edited to fix misattribution)
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by PoliteNewb »

1.) Jesus Christ, here we go again, Lago feels the need to fap about high level vs. low level...

2.) I'm fine with the fact that you like high level and don't like low level. That's cool and all. But for the love of fuck, stop pretending that wanting to do epic shit like rewriting reality is somehow more "mature" or awesome than wandering through a dungeon stabbing orcs. You find Conan and LotR boring; some people find DBZ and One Piece cartoony and over-the-top. We are seriously all playing make-believe here, there is no high ground.

3.) All those high level plots sound like bullshit to me. Because they fundamentally change the campaign world to the point where you are literally not playing the same campaign any more. While you obviously want people to be able to have an impact on the world, the status must be quo to some extent, or you have no frame of reference.

4.) I've said it before and I'll say it again...D&D mechanics do not scale properly to handle going from Joe the Peasant to Superman or the Green Lantern.

5.) I really can't believe you're talking about this shit again...what are you hoping will be said this time that wasn't said (at length) in the other dozen threads you started about this same topic?

tl;dr: HIGH LEVEL ROXXORZ, LOW LEVEL SUXX,
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Post by hogarth »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
hogarth wrote: Some of your plots seem to come down to MTP. Making a race, the moon livable, the industrial revolution. That really sounds like something you'd just sit around and make up.
It's SimEarth-style stuff. Definitely a change in paradigm, but also definitely something that you can simulate with TTRPGs.
You quoted the wrong guy; MGuy said what you attributed to me.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

PoliteNewb wrote: 2.) I'm fine with the fact that you like high level and don't like low level. That's cool and all. But for the love of fuck, stop pretending that wanting to do epic shit like rewriting reality is somehow more "mature" or awesome than wandering through a dungeon stabbing orcs. You find Conan and LotR boring; some people find DBZ and One Piece cartoony and over-the-top. We are seriously all playing make-believe here, there is no high ground.
I'm fine with parceling off sections of the metagame for people who want to play certain styles. I am perfectly willing to suspend my belief over the fact that Batman and Punisher's stories exist in the same universe as Superman and Silver Surfer and even talk to each other now and then.

The part I don't like is when low-level wankers stick their dicks into high-level play. 4E calling their sad simulation of epic just that is offensive to me because it crowds out stories of actual high-level play. When Andy Collins decides that a Vanilla Action Hero and the things that they can do should be a meaningful focal point for high-level play, this means that you can't actually have high-level plots. There's no terraforming and race creating and whatever because the game has to accommodate people who don't want to do that or aren't aware that they should be doing that.

TTRPGs have repeatedly made this mistake and it needs to stop, but it'll only stop when people get over the cognitive dissonance of wanting to call themselves epic and whatnot but actually only want to play in the low/mid levels.
PoliteNewb wrote:All those high level plots sound like bullshit to me. Because they fundamentally change the campaign world to the point where you are literally not playing the same campaign any more. While you obviously want people to be able to have an impact on the world, the status must be quo to some extent, or you have no frame of reference.
High-level people get a new frame of reference and a new status quo. Because the campaign revolves around the exploits of the Gods of Olympus, you can totally kill off Athens or even Gethenna and life will still go on. Or hell, since it's high-level and the game is about to end anyway you can totally just change the status quo, do a few more adventures if you want, and then just end the game.

I don't exactly see what's so shocking about that. When you're low level, the exploits of a port city can totally be campaign-defining, to the point where you can look up the names of the bartenders in a book. When you become mid-level things zoom out and you learn more about what's going on in other cities and strongholds and whatever, at the cost of no longer being able to know what every major business in a city is.
Polite Newb wrote: 1.) Jesus Christ, here we go again, Lago feels the need to fap about high level vs. low level...
5.) I really can't believe you're talking about this shit again...what are you hoping will be said this time that wasn't said (at length) in the other dozen threads you started about this same topic?
tl;dr: HIGH LEVEL ROXXORZ, LOW LEVEL SUXX,
You know, for someone who's complaining about argument repetitiveness, you sure are hypocritical. :awesome:
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by hogarth »

Lago PARANOIA wrote: The part I don't like is when low-level wankers stick their dicks into high-level play. 4E calling their sad simulation of epic just that is offensive to me because it crowds out stories of actual high-level play. When Andy Collins decides that a Vanilla Action Hero and the things that they can do should be a meaningful focal point for high-level play, this means that you can't actually have high-level plots. There's no terraforming and race creating and whatever because the game has to accommodate people who don't want to do that or aren't aware that they should be doing that.
You can do all the terraforming/race creating/etc. adventures that you want. You just can't do it with 4E D&D rules. And, frankly, why would you want to? Pick up Amber Diceless RPG or something instead; you can even use the same character names and campaign world.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to send an angry telegram to the makers of Scrabble and complain that I can't use their rules to play Diplomacy. The gaming world is dying to play Scrablomacy, dammit!
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Post by souran »

Lago,

You could not be more totally and completely WRONG.


People have pointed out to you really basic things like "most games do not have a total paradigm shifit into a different game"

The teams that get to the superbowl don't fucking play baseball to decide which team is better.

You sat down to play D&D there is literally nothing in my mind I can think is LESS like D&D than fucking teraforming the MOON.

Now D&D scaling is a little silly, and there are plenty of things that can only be reconcicled as narative convention. And if you let the players of mid to high level characters lose focus on adventuring and let them just make shit with the rules you convert every D&D setting into discworld after about 5 minutes.

However, the reason the game is built like that is because the rules are really only good for adventuring. Using D&D rules to fight battles or run kingdoms gives shit results. Further, you don't expect the rules to shadowrun to let you build/run characters who run multi-national firms or are heads of state or other crap like that, why should D&D be only half a freaking game becuase you feel the need to make the other half be about some something other than going into dungeons and fighting dragons.

Seriously, there are some very good rulership games. There are sci-fi and fantasy versions of "world in flames" that you could play.

I used to think fairly similar to the way you did. I thought that after a certain point the players would want to run kingdoms and planets or planes.

However, I found that its usually just hte opposite. People like being high level because it makes them really amazing at being adventurers. So amazing that some kinds of adventures could be handeled with lilttle effort. The fact that collapsing bridges, armies of lex luthor clones with kryptonite knives and villians with who try and block out the sun all eventually pose no further threat to superman doesn't mean that people want superman to switch from fighting monsters to solving the problems of world poverty and global warming. It means its time to bring out Doomsday again.

Similarly, there are lots of monsters still to fight at high levels. Balors, ancient red dragons, demon princes evil gods etc. People want their shot to fight these things. And really don't want the game to go from being D&D to being fucking CIV V because they hit level 10.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

hogarth wrote: You can do all the terraforming/race creating/etc. adventures that you want. You just can't do it with 4E D&D rules. And, frankly, why would you want to?
Well, no doubt that there's a smaller audience for real high-level play than low and mid-level play so it's okay for them to focus on the latter. And because space concern in D&D is a real thing it probably won't even be possible to have enough word count to do high-level play justice for the first few splatbooks, let alone the core rulebooks.

But I do think that there is a potential audience interested in the story of how Zondar the Mid-Level Wizard became Zondar the God of Magic. That won't happen if people keep confusing the precepts of mid-level play with high-level.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Red_Rob »

It seems to me the major difference between low level and high level play is that the abilities gained at the higher levels lend themselves much more to a sandbox style of play than the powers at lower level. There seems to be a general feeling that sandbox play is more difficult (both for the players and the GM)than the more pre-determined situations you find in lower level adventures, which might be why there is such resistance to the reality of high level D&D.
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Josh_Kablack
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

hogarth wrote:Scrablomacy,
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Post by MGuy »

The point of my last post was to Lago that his idea of "high level" was either Magic Tea Party that isn't even covered by the "high level" rules that are present in DnD right now or just lower level adventures ramped up to epic level. There is seriously only a palette swap worth of difference between wandering to different wildernesses to solve an issue vs plane hopping. Sure one is more epic than the other but they are both fundamentally the same (different environment conditions with which to fight).

I don't believe this difference makes "high-Level play" much different than lower level play other than the epicness. Instead of becoming invisible you're erasing your presence from existence. Its really the same shit just scaled up. So instead of tracing you with "see Invisibility" they trace you with "omniscience". Anytime you scale up abilities on one end you scale them up on the other. So while Lago's high level plots allow players to pass ordinary bullshit you have "high-level" bullshit you then need to bypass to do anything you care about. This means you're still on the scaling bullshit track that people seem to hate. So while I agree that high level play is different than lower level play I only believe so because its higher on the scale, not because its a different game entirely.
Last edited by MGuy on Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Okay, let me try putting this another way. Here are some facets of high-level play. Let's forget about phlebtonium and superpowers for a bit and talk more on theme and tone.
  • The time and setting scale is zoomed out. Concerns that happen to high-level characters should happen on a scale of years rather than months. You no longer really give a care about the effects of things that happen in anything smaller than a country, because that's the level you start out with.
  • The idea of you operating in a vacuum does not happen anymore. You are no longer an unloved, unmourned hobo. Even if you happen to be playing a character who is the literal incarnation of stealth, your concerns and actions effect everything. If you are the incarnation of war and you get beat up really badly, for the next several years people are a lot more willing to commit wartime atrocities. As you are Gruumsh the God of orcs, winning glory makes your followers smarter and more brawny.
  • The status quo changes and constantly. Since you are at a godly or near-godly level, the setting can just go ahead and have big changes. There is a random roll to see whether Krynn is overrun with barbarians. There are random rolls to see what new metropolises are formed. Since you are now part of something bigger the game is more free to change shit around.
  • Followers. There is absolutely no getting around it, you have at the very least a basement full of dragons who will follow your every word. While it's not necessary for every adventure or even campaign to have to include you commanding your druid hordes into battle, if you can't handle the idea of your character being theoretically expected to snap his fingers and fight alongside/command thousands or even hundreds of thousands of minions you shouldn't be playing high levels.
  • Environmental and social engineering. Even if you're not the kind of person to raise continents from the ocean, you as a high-level character should focus on having some sort of impact on society at large. If you want to be a wizard whose highest ambition is to snort cocaine off of a succubus's tits then stay mid-level. If you want a wizard that created the best wizard's school from scratch after completely genociding/assimilating all of the Southern barbarians and after a couple of centuries brought most of the major nations under the heels of the wizard's guild, welcome to high levels.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Wrathzog
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Post by Wrathzog »

So, what you're really saying is that when you hit "high levels" in a game, you actually start playing a completely different game.

It's not just the scale that changes, the mechanics have to be separate. What works at a tactical scale is not going to matter when you're worrying about Strategic level decisions.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Wrathzog wrote: It's not just the scale that changes, the mechanics have to be separate. What works at a tactical scale is not going to matter when you're worrying about Strategic level decisions.
Yes, but there's no reason to completely switch over from Tactical to Strategic with just a gain of levels nor even a reason for Tactical to be completely abandoned.

It's gradual. Several advancement units before the 'you must be this godly to continue playing' you're already introducing the elements. Which isn't as hard as you think, since 3E D&D (badly I must admit) flirted with the introduction of said elements in several sourcebooks.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Wrathzog
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Post by Wrathzog »

Sure, but there will be a threshold (thresholds?). There comes a point when someone graduates from swinging a sword once a round to consuming 1d10 orcs every round to straight up obliterating armies with one swing of your mighty death sword.

I mean, alternatively, you could eventually gain an attack that does XDY+Z Damage to everything in 100 feet... but do you really NEED that level of detail? Maybe an added effect of "Instantly kills any enemy that is 5 levels less than yours?"

I just can't see an elegant way of mixing what should be two completely different systems.
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