[SR4] Clone Body - Type O

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:52 pm

Augmentation page 127. (S. 133 im deutschen Bodytech)
25.000 Nuyen, a type O clone body.
Holy fuck, why buy Type O for 30 BP?
(the one where you get Basic Cyberware only as Deltaware, without price increases)

What am I missing?

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:18 pm

I think you're missing that having a normal Type O clone body lying around is pretty damn worthless.

Quantumboost · Post by **Quantumboost** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:31 pm

Pretty simple: Transplanting a non-Type O organ into a Type O body carries all the risks of a non-protein-matched organ transplant (i.e. tissue rejection) that Shadowrun has long passed by even for the bottommost dregs of society. Your brain is neither hypoallergenic nor a protein match for a clonal Type O body.

Now, you could try to transplant each organ in turn from the full-clone into your body, but since doing a single organ appears to deal 5P surgery damage per organ you're in for a lot of recovery time. And that's assuming that you can even get some of those parts as generic bioware - I personally would stare at a player as though they were an idiot if they outright suggested getting a non-cultured immune system transplant.

The best you could hope for is possibly getting yourself transferred over to a Type O body via Matrix transfer, but that is super crazy advanced technology and heavily into houserule-necessary territory. It might even warrant buying off the quality with your accumulated karma/BP, which... gets you exactly where you'd be if you started off with the Type O quality in the first place.

Quantumboost · Post by **Quantumboost** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:39 pm

Note, however, that if you jam an inhabitation spirit into a full-body Type O clone you can also jam crazy amounts of cheap bioware into them without massive essence reduction. I.e., without the host body dying beforehand.

If you Invoke it and light a lot of karma on fire, you could plausibly even go full-on Mewtwo with that shit.

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:09 pm

Whipstitch wrote:I think you're missing that having a normal Type O clone body lying around is pretty damn worthless.

The books says, you can order Typo O transplants and get it (at worst) with next days mail.

Quantumboost wrote:Pretty simple: Transplanting a non-Type O organ into a Type O body carries all the risks of a non-protein-matched organ transplant (i.e. tissue rejection) that Shadowrun has long passed by even for the bottommost dregs of society. Your brain is neither hypoallergenic nor a protein match for a clonal Type O body.

I dont get it, if you transplant an Typo O arm on your otherwise normal body, you dont get organ rejections, why should you get one, the other way around.

Now, you could try to transplant each organ in turn from the full-clone into your body, but since doing a single organ appears to deal 5P surgery damage per organ you're in for a lot of recovery time.

But you are only transplanting one organ (the brain).

And that's assuming that you can even get some of those parts as generic bioware - I personally would stare at a player as though they were an idiot if they outright suggested getting a non-cultured immune system transplant.

What parts are you talking about? You can order a full Typo O body for 25.000 Nuyen.
The Bioware you can build in later...

The best you could hope for is possibly getting yourself transferred over to a Type O body via Matrix transfer, but that is super crazy advanced technology and heavily into houserule-necessary territory. It might even warrant buying off the quality with your accumulated karma/BP, which... gets you exactly where you'd be if you started off with the Type O quality in the first place.

If not for an full body exchange, whats the complet body (typo O or cultivated) for?
Well I suppose, if you need 2 arms you could order the full body and chop it up.
It would be cheaper than ordering two arms as seperate items.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:40 pm

Korwin wrote:Augmentation page 127. (S. 133 im deutschen Bodytech)
25.000 Nuyen, a type O clone body.
Holy fuck, why buy Type O for 30 BP?

That's literally buying an inert Type O body. Like, a medical cadaver for transplanting from. What the fucking hell would you do with it?

-Username17

Quantumboost · Post by **Quantumboost** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:43 pm

Korwin wrote:I dont get it, if you transplant an Typo O arm on your otherwise normal body, you dont get organ rejections, why should you get one, the other way around.

Because it's not symmetric. Let's use blood type as an example (I think that's the right page), since that's an actual thing that actually happens.

Ignoring all the other possible complications, if you put Type O blood into a type AB person who is low on blood, they will be fine. The white blood cells won't reject the blood because there are no foreign proteins.

If, however, you put type AB blood into a type 0 person, the white blood cells will recognize the type A and type B surface proteins as not-us and attack them. Type A proteins and type B proteins are in fact not part of the person who has 0 blood type.

The same thing happens with Shadowrun tissue rejection, literally the exact same thing for the exact same reasons. In this case, instead of transferring AB-type blood into an 0-type body, you're transplanting a non-Type O brain into a Type O body. The Type O immune system detects alien proteins on the brain and attacks them. That's tissue rejection.

But you are only transplanting one organ (the brain).

No, that would be in the first case, which is the one with tissue rejection and is a no-go. This is a different case, where you're replacing your old body piece by piece with Type O organs. It's *physically* the same eventually, but uses different game rules.

What parts are you talking about? You can order a full Typo O body for 25.000 Nuyen.
The Bioware you can build in later...

The immune system. Bone marrow, whatever. I'm using "bioware" to refer to the immune system even though, other than being Type O, it's just like a normal human immune system. I am saying that to transplant the parts of the immune system, it should have to be cultured organs, not Type O.

If not for an full body exchange, whats the complet body (typo O or cultivated) for?

For Type O: If you have a full body clone, you already have the organ you need cloned up and available, right there, regardless of what that organ actually is. In case next-day mail just isn't fast enough. You might want DocWagon or someone like them to have such a clone for exactly that reason.

For Cultured: You can totally do full body exchange with this since it's protein-matched. Also the same things as a Type O clone body.

Also, as I said, Inhabitation Spirit dickery.

Edit:

FrankTrollman wrote:That's literally buying an inert Type O body. Like, a medical cadaver for transplanting from. What the fucking hell would you do with it?

-Username17

He's trying to have his character's non-Type O brain transplanted into it so he can avoid paying the 30 BP for the quality. It *might* be a hypothetical character.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:59 pm

Korwin wrote:
Quantumboost wrote:Pretty simple: Transplanting a non-Type O organ into a Type O body carries all the risks of a non-protein-matched organ transplant (i.e. tissue rejection) that Shadowrun has long passed by even for the bottommost dregs of society. Your brain is neither hypoallergenic nor a protein match for a clonal Type O body.
I dont get it, if you transplant an Typo O arm on your otherwise normal body, you dont get organ rejections, why should you get one, the other way around.

Aha! I see what you're doing. That is stupid and would never work.

Rejection happens because the graft has proteins that the host does not. That means that the immune system of the host is capable of recognizing the graft as foreign, and rejects it. The host in this case is the immune system, not the brain. Because even though the brain is "you", that's not the part that actually rejects tissues.

The Type O cells have less proteins than you do on the surface of the cells. That means that they can't be recognized as being foreign by your immune system. But it also means that you have a whole fuck tonne of proteins that the Type O does not, and that your cells are recognized instantly and automagically by the immune system of a Type O body.

So if you put a Type O organ into your body, it does not get rejected. If you put your organ into a Type O body, it is "hyper-acutely rejected" (that's the actual term).

It's just like for real Type O blood. The Type O people are universal donors, not universal recipients. Give them some AB and they fucking die.

If not for an full body exchange, whats the complet body (typo O or cultivated) for?
Well I suppose, if you need 2 arms you could order the full body and chop it up.
It would be cheaper than ordering two arms as seperate items.

You have answered your own question. If you need multiple limbs and organs or whatever it's cheaper to grow a whole body and grab the pieces you want than to set up multiple cloning tanks.

Brain transplants basically don't happen and are almost impossible.

-Username17

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:43 am

If you transplanted in enough Type O stuff, you could probably kill yourself too, but that's just expensive and pointless.

Captain_Karzak · Post by **Captain_Karzak** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:17 am

FrankTrollman wrote:
Brain transplants basically don't happen and are almost impossible.

-Username17

I don't know much medical science: Are you referring to SR-4 jarheads, or in Real Life?

Archmage · Post by **Archmage** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:30 am

Captain_Karzak wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:
Brain transplants basically don't happen and are almost impossible.

-Username17
I don't know much medical science: Are you referring to SR-4 jarheads, or in Real Life?

He's talking about real life, I assume, on account of, I dunno, being a medical professional in-training or whatever. I wouldn't go so far as to say impossible, but they certainly seem pretty implausible, though I don't have enough of a neurology background to speak with confidence. I'm pretty sure the connections that would need to be made between a "donor" brain and a "host" body are myriad and the precision involved would make the task nearly impossible.

I suppose in the world of Shadowrun super-science you can always assume that 2070's medicine is capable of...er...basically whatever the fuck you want.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:03 am

Out of curiousity, why doesn't the Type O arm freak out about your non-Type O blood and lymph and shit flowing into it? It seems like that should be a problem. Is there a Shadowrun technobabble explaination for that which is at all convincing?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:46 am

Grek wrote:Out of curiousity, why doesn't the Type O arm freak out about your non-Type O blood and lymph and shit flowing into it? It seems like that should be a problem. Is there a Shadowrun technobabble explaination for that which is at all convincing?

Bone marrow is amorphous, regrows itself, and isn't especially necessary for your survival (as evidenced by the fact that people who have lost limbs don't die of lack of marrow). Whatever process is used to get your nerves to reach in and innervate the new limb presumably also involves getting your bone marrow to grow into the new limb's bone. Because bone grafting is something we can do right now, so that's not even pseudo-mystical technobabble the way all the rest of this is.

-Username17

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:38 am

Frank's spot on for blood types and rejection. I have O neg blood, which means that I'm on the fast-dial list of the blood donors. Every time an emergency happens I get a phone call. EVERYONE loves my blood.

I forgot universal recipient. Is that AB positive?

Captain_Karzak · Post by **Captain_Karzak** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:10 am

TheFlatline wrote:
I forgot universal recipient. Is that AB positive?

Yes.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:53 am

FrankTrollman wrote:
Grek wrote:Out of curiousity, why doesn't the Type O arm freak out about your non-Type O blood and lymph and shit flowing into it? It seems like that should be a problem. Is there a Shadowrun technobabble explaination for that which is at all convincing?
Bone marrow is amorphous, regrows itself, and isn't especially necessary for your survival (as evidenced by the fact that people who have lost limbs don't die of lack of marrow). Whatever process is used to get your nerves to reach in and innervate the new limb presumably also involves getting your bone marrow to grow into the new limb's bone. Because bone grafting is something we can do right now, so that's not even pseudo-mystical technobabble the way all the rest of this is.

-Username17

Probably irradiate the arm to kill the marrow there, mellon-ball out some host marrow to replace it, and maybe exsanguinate and flush the arm to be sure? I don't know what yyou'd have to do about the lymph.

Regrowing nerves would be the hard part. And it's much, much harder if you don't have a way to retrain those nerves (or a couple years and a lot of luck to do it the old-fashioned way).

And the '-' part of O- indicates that you have monkey blood. No really, it's talking about your Rhesus Antigen factor, and specifically referring to those tiny monkeys.

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:00 pm

I think I will allow it regardles*, but the new body would have minimum attributes (Str., Bod., Agi., Rea.).
Should be enough to decourage my players.

*If they should ask.

talozin · Post by **talozin** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:45 pm

TheFlatline wrote:Frank's spot on for blood types and rejection. I have O neg blood, which means that I'm on the fast-dial list of the blood donors. Every time an emergency happens I get a phone call. EVERYONE loves my blood.

In a stinging display of irony, my wife, who is also O-, has anemia and is effectively unable to donate blood.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:50 pm

also, people who are O neg, can only get blood from people who are O neg.

AB+ receive blood from everyone, give to noone but AB+
AB- Receive from everyone except AB+, give to AB- and +
A+ Receive from A, or O, give to A+,AB
A- Receive from A-, or O, give to A, AB
B+ Receive from B, or o, give to B+, AB
B- Receive from B-, or O, Give B, AB
O+, receive from O, give to everyone, except O-
O-, receive from O-, give to everyone

So just because you won't reject a type-O arm, means that most likely, the Type-O clone will reject your brain.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:20 am

Also, in the sense of Shadowrun, what's so fancy about having being Type-O anyway? I guess Bio/Cyber-ware is cheaper, and/or otherwise costs less Essence, and thus can put it more on your character?

I'm sure there's a few threads that have made it clear enough, so if needed, just toss the quotes from there to me or something.

Captain_Karzak · Post by **Captain_Karzak** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:24 am

Yeah the idea is that essence is the ultimate constraint on how much you can augment your body with 'Ware. You can pay to relax this constrain by purchasing higher grades of Ware, but at crippling expense (Delta grade ware costs 10x list price to save you 50% off the essence cost).

Unfortunately having a Type O system does very little to improve this situation: Type O System's benefits only apply to basic bioware, not cultured bioware or cyberware.

Since most basic bioware does not have an egregious essence cost in the first place, and the most monetarily expensive stuff is tends to be Cultured Bioware, and most essence expensive items tend to be cyberware, buying a Type O System seems like an ass-tastic way to spend 30/35 BP's that you get to allocate to positive qualities.

I wonder it if it would be worth it is it affected all three types of 'ware? Even then, 30 BP's worth of qualities seems steep.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:52 pm

Furthermore it's a bit of a double edged sword, because it also makes you the perfect donor, so tamanous for example could be out looking for people like that to use them as organ donors or stations in which bioware is grown again and again . .

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:28 pm

Well yeah you are the ideal donor, but can you be sent per mail?
I don't the big lure for someone to search for Type O's, instead of buildin/leasing an clone station.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:34 pm

Getting such a Clone-Station for cheap(read, the ammount of money it takes to get you in there)
and type-o is even more seldom than magic.
so less than 1% in the world.
Well, this is still 60.000.000 people world wide . .
But find them and get them to do the clone-bank for you . .

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:04 am

Or order per mail...