Dungeons and Dragons: Daggerdale

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:08 pm

I remeber there was a post about the future of D&D and questions about what hasbro would do with the license when 4th started to perish. Well, I remember specifically one of us saying they'd whore the brand name out to whichever bidder they favored and allowed them to make shitty videogames out of it.
Whoever said that was brilliant, because thats exactly what happened.
Recently, in the last week or so I downloaded the game mentioned in the title of the thread. I can't say I was disappointed more like I was sicked, and fatigued, (no save once you press start), and I'm going to do a full review of why this game is shit, but first I just want to expand on why is such a horrid deal that they do thing in this way.
1. There have actually been D&D games that have been good, fun, and technologically, up to par. These games actually helped people want to play D&D. The most notable was the "Tower of Doom" series and while not an rpg it was the best side scrolling beat-em-up to emerge from the genre and people acknowledge that and loved it. It was at the end of the Final fight era so that was short lived but it was excellent. They used Capcom, a major develper the hottest at the time and thing were good.
2. They clearly Don't have it in mind to observe whats being released or look at the game before it hits the shelves.
to be expanded...
3. People who make good RPG's or GOOD games in general would love to use the Brand name. Even companies that only have 1 flagship titile, would like to expand the stable, this could be good for everyone: Call of duty is a great example even of how you can have multiple developers create versions of you game and they all turn out great.
Now we are elitsts snobs round here but if you think for a second that there are good rpg games, or good video games at all, it is not far a stretch that Wotc couldn't find people that make good games and get them to make a proper representation of the Most famous TTRPG in the world.
There's no reason for it to get this type of treatment.
Feel free to goolge up some of the scenes, or hell download the demo on x-box live. You'll wish you didn't.
-M_v

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:36 pm

Midnight_v wrote:Call of duty is a great example even of how you can have multiple developers create versions of you game and they all turn out great.

I can feel my nerd rage seething.

That said, I want D&D RPG's, but 4e is almost too shallow even for a roleplaying videogame, which is an impressive feat. (Okay, that's unfair; it would be too shallow compared to existing D&D RPG's.) I think D&D is dead to me for the foreseeable future.

... Wait, shit. What the fuck am I going to be playing in 5-10 years? 3.5 can't last forever, I'm fed up with it already. D&D's abandoned 'being interesting' in favor of achieving the ultimate balance (and failing to do that), Shadowrun's... lol. Everything I know and love is dying all around me! Maybe it's time to join the rest of the embittered souls and make my own TTRPG. With blackjack and hookers! In fact, forget the TTRPG.

Wrathzog · Post by **Wrathzog** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:07 pm

The problem with TTRPG's is technology and the fact that no one is taking advantage of it. Wizards is actually trying to go in the right direction but they're just not putting enough time and effort into it to be successful. The only reason that they haven't completely failed yet is because, afaik, they're still the only ones using the internet to support their game (and I'm not talking about selling overpriced PDF's; the character builder is a good idea done poorly).

If TTRPG's want to survive, they're going to have to evolve beyond the Tabletop. They need internet support and they need to branch out to video games and movies.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:27 pm

I don't understand why they aren't just making more and more powerful versions of Neverwinter Nights. They wouldn't even need to do a lot of work to make it go. You get some default campaigns but the major draw will be providing fans a 3d model way of playing DnD. Dice roller, graphics engine, etc all included. You let fans make games based off of your engine and fan made content will do the rest. You provide upgrades for new content you release in deadwood format, a minor fee to use it online per month, offer to pay fans who make particularly popular adventures and shit and blam. You've got a hit.

Edit: As read something is being left out of here. The 3-D model table top feature would actually be separate from the main game. It wouldn't be all greased up and actiony but more static and board game like (with the grid and everything) but it'd use the models from the main game. You could give them adjustable action poses and make the equipment interchangeable. You'd have to have it grid 3D movement.blah blah blah. So you'd have your action rpg and table top program all in one game.

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:41 pm

Wrathzog wrote:If TTRPG's want to survive, they're going to have to evolve beyond the Tabletop.

I'm going to massively disagree. In order for TTRPG's to survive they are going to need to embrace the tabletop; now more than ever. Of course the only difference is "what is a tabletop?" That old tabletop was covered in books, and paper. The new tabletop is covered in iPads; networked, no less.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:31 pm

Okay, watching like 90 seconds of that, I have to say that there is no apparent upgrade in visuals from the Dark Alliance series.

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:45 pm

Josh_Kablack wrote:Okay, watching like 90 seconds of that, I have to say that there is no apparent upgrade in visuals from the Dark Alliance series.

I think its worse, because its try's and fails to do better, and it has so much more potential to work with.

I don't understand why they aren't just making more and more powerful versions of Neverwinter Nights. They wouldn't even need to do a lot of work to make it go

Thats one of the many many things they could do but as you see they don't give a damn about that franchise, except that they own it.

K · Post by K » Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:27 pm

Midnight_v wrote:
I don't understand why they aren't just making more and more powerful versions of Neverwinter Nights. They wouldn't even need to do a lot of work to make it go

Thats one of the many many things they could do but as you see they don't give a damn about that franchise, except that they own it.

They probably license Neverwinter Nights IP per game, meaning that at some point WotC was like "hey you made two successful games and a buch of successful expansions out of this property, and now we want much more fees" and Bioware responded with "you know, we hire our own writers anyway so making our own kitchen-sink fantasy that we own forever is literally money in our pockets with no extra work."

The value of an IP is added value. Generic fantasy is stupidly easy to create, so WotC needs to get off it's high horse and realize that "Official DnDm Product" doesn't have a lot of added value outside the TTRPG business.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:54 am

What you'll be playing in 10 years? I'm hoping it'll be indie-produced, quick-to-pickup RPGs that don't care about miniatures or positioning. I know there's been a lot of very silly conversations on the Forge (totally unlike the Den in that respect) but the indie scene has really come a long way.

If D&D, and Shadowrun die, I'll just play Apocalypse World, After Sundown, and Fiasco.

K · Post by K » Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:43 am

I looked at the Forge two days ago because someone mentioned it here, and I could not find one game that was even partially completed. Everything I looked at was basically two pages of partial rules for a clone of a game that already exists and some guys looking for an ego-boost for that accomplishment.

I don't really have a lot of confidence in the Forge producing a decent-quality indie game. It seems like an ego-boost farm since none of the pages I looked at even gave useful feedback.

That being said, people are going to produce new games. Publishing is getting cheaper and easier and the web is the kind of advertising that people in 70s only dreamed of. I imagine someone is going to get the money together for a print run of a decent game eventually and that will become the new standard. I mean, if Paizo can rip-off DnD 3.5 and toss some new art on it and can get a business model together based on that, I expect that the market for an actually decent RPG is pretty big.

K · Post by K » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:37 am

I wonder if Kickstarter will be where the next new indie game comes from. They are funding like three games I'd actually like to look at.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:52 am

The Forge may not have a completed game on there, but well-known Forge posters do. Such as Apocalypse World, by Vincent Baker.

K · Post by K » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:36 am

Orion wrote:The Forge may not have a completed game on there, but well-known Forge posters do. Such as Apocalypse World, by Vincent Baker.

So I looked at Apocalypse World on its forum. It seems like pure Magic Tea Party added to character sheets.

Are we calling those games now? I mean, it seems more like an improvisational theater set-up that sometimes uses dice.

Is there anyone else on the Forge who might have a contender for an actual game?

PS. Just looked at Fiasco. I'm not sure why there are dice for this game either considering it also seems to be an improv game.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:05 pm

K wrote:The value of an IP is added value. Generic fantasy is stupidly easy to create, so WotC needs to get off it's high horse and realize that "Official DnDm Product" doesn't have a lot of added value outside the TTRPG business.

You beat me to it. Why make Neverwinter Nights 5 when you can make Bioware's Proprietary Fantasy Setting 1 and sell the same amount?

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:06 pm

hogarth wrote:...when you can make Bioware's Proprietary Fantasy Setting 1 and sell the same amount?

That fortunately won't happen. (edit: the bit about their setting being number one, not the selling the same amount thing. Biowares sales are largely independent of not only setting, but indeed general quality of product or any connection with actual reality at all)

The same thing about crappily written yawn worthy generic Fantasy that makes it possible for Bioware to give the finger to D&D IP is the same thing that ensures that Bioware's own alternative will be forgettable AND forgotten.

If Bioware has any sense they won't stick to even their own IP settings for an extended period and will switch to or at least cycle their generic rip off shit fests.

Which is probably a good thing because did I mention how in fucking sanely shite Dragon Age and Mass Effect are story wise? Because they are. Forgettable, uninteresting, predictable, and just short of outright plagiarist in their broadly derivative natures.

But then maybe it's a bad thing because even if Bioware DID write something that would be worth half a shit if it were a novel, TV show or novelty illustrated novel on recycled toilet paper... it would be still be rapidly forgotten amongst the generic sea that is generic fantasy.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:11 pm

PhoneLobster wrote:
hogarth wrote:...when you can make Bioware's Proprietary Fantasy Setting 1 and sell the same amount?
That fortunately won't happen. (edit: the bit about their setting being number one, not the selling the same amount thing. Biowares sales are largely independent of not only setting, but indeed general quality of product or any connection with actual reality at all)

So what I said won't happen except for the part that I was talking about? WTF?

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:16 pm

Well your generic fantasy setting doesn't have to be well written at all. The idea for WotC is just to get a working table top game generator on the market. Have it be one part tabletop game and one part generic wank off rpg and you're set.

You allow the fanbase to be able to mod your rpg action game while having a fully functional highly customizable table top half to the game then you're good. You publish modules for both, update it based on the updates you make to your edition, charge a modest monthly fee for online usage and updates, creation contests, paid recognition give aways for the best fan content, etc etc.

Ravengm · Post by **Ravengm** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:21 pm

I posted a rageview over in MPSIMS a while back.

Don't buy this game.

sake · Post by **sake** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:29 pm

I still think 4E's mechanic would make for an excellent FF Tactics style rpg game. Playing a single 4E pc on a tabletop is boring as shit, but give me 5 or 6 of them to build and run, and then have the computer handle all the fiddly -2's,+1's, End of Next Turn math shit... that could actually be damn fun.

But we will never ever, ever see such a thing, short of some fan made project that'll be CaD'ed the instant it nears release.

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:06 am

K wrote:I looked at the Forge two days ago because someone mentioned it here, and I could not find one game that was even partially completed. Everything I looked at was basically two pages of partial rules for a clone of a game that already exists and some guys looking for an ego-boost for that accomplishment.

I released a completed game on the forge five months ago. Like, not a ten page long forgegame, but a ~200 page long quasi-traditional RPG. .

They completely and utterly ignored it.

(I'd post it on the Den, but I'm afraid you guys would savagely and brutally rip it apart without even bothering to play it, which is equally but differently undesirable.)

K · Post by K » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:29 am

Schwarzkopf wrote:
K wrote:I looked at the Forge two days ago because someone mentioned it here, and I could not find one game that was even partially completed. Everything I looked at was basically two pages of partial rules for a clone of a game that already exists and some guys looking for an ego-boost for that accomplishment.
I released a completed game on the forge five months ago. Like, not a ten page long forgegame, but a ~200 page long quasi-traditional RPG. .

They completely and utterly ignored it.

(I'd post it on the Den, but I'm afraid you guys would savagely and brutally rip it apart without even bothering to play it, which is equally but differently undesirable.)

The signal to noise ratio at the Den is better than you'll find on any other online forum, but that is not saying much. If you want some real feedback mixed with the usual forum bullshit, then you should post your game. At the minimum, it won't get ignored.

I'm also unsurprised that it was ignored on The Forge. That place doesn't actually seem like a place where people are designing games, but they seem to want people to think that they are.

ScottS · Post by **ScottS** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:38 am

K wrote: So I looked at Apocalypse World on its forum. It seems like pure Magic Tea Party added to character sheets.
Are we calling those games now? I mean, it seems more like an improvisational theater set-up that sometimes uses dice.
Is there anyone else on the Forge who might have a contender for an actual game?
PS. Just looked at Fiasco. I'm not sure why there are dice for this game either considering it also seems to be an improv game.

I'm semi-sorta dipping into this crap right now, and generally it seems that yes this is the trend. Not involved with Forge at all but I gather the concept is that these are mostly pure "N" games with mild to moderate "G" components for basic conflict resolution (more G over time, perhaps due to the realization that 100% MTP bores/frustrates a lot of people). The responsibility for "S" is exported almost entirely onto the GM/players (e.g. the infamous "arguing over adjectives" feature that also found its way into D&D4e).

Looked at/listened to pods about Dirty World, Shock, and FreeMarket so far and they're all kind of like this. (Shock in particular was rather sketchy compared to "traditional" rpgs, but version I saw was a playtest so maybe they fleshed it out.) Going to actually try FreeMarket this week and I might post a review if people are interested.

DragonChild · Post by **DragonChild** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:39 am

Isn't the Forge the community built by the guy who honestly said playing D&D gives you brain damage? It has a reputation for being crap for a reason.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:42 am

Schwarzkopf wrote:
K wrote:I looked at the Forge two days ago because someone mentioned it here, and I could not find one game that was even partially completed. Everything I looked at was basically two pages of partial rules for a clone of a game that already exists and some guys looking for an ego-boost for that accomplishment.
I released a completed game on the forge five months ago. Like, not a ten page long forgegame, but a ~200 page long quasi-traditional RPG. .

They completely and utterly ignored it.

(I'd post it on the Den, but I'm afraid you guys would savagely and brutally rip it apart without even bothering to play it, which is equally but differently undesirable.)

This place IS the acid-test and I can understand your concerns. But what's it about?

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:53 am

Vague, Off-Topic Rambling about own game:

Its genre is grindhouse horror. Basically it closely emulates all of the best good-bad b-horror flicks of the '70s, '80s, '90s, and 2000s. So your Night of the Living Dead, your Evil Dead, your From Dusk Till 'Dawn, your Planet Terror. That kind of thing. And by emulates, I mean like...the game is completely and openly on its face a derivative fanwork. It's the only game I've ever written that's explicitly, purposefully non-commercial and can't be monetized. I'll be straight up about that. It is a mash-up of all grindhouse horror movies that I consider good and/or bad-good.

I initially wrote it in 2005 then realized it was crap crap crap after writing like fifteen games in the interrim, and gave it a ground-up rewrite in 2010 and fixed most of the stuff that I realized was crap, rewriting it from the position of someone who actually knew at least a little bit about game design.

There are three tiers of play, 'Badass Normal', 'Uber Badass', and 'Superhuman Badass'. At 'Badass Normal', the game is more horror than action. At 'Superhuman Badass' it's more action than horror (think Preacher, I suppose, if you've read it). At the SB tier, PCs are no longer required to be humans, and monster races are allowed.

'Uber Badass' is actually the default character tier and is in-between action and horror. Naturally, every PC has to be the same tier, agreed upon at character creation/campaign start, which will set the tone of play. The character tier names like many ability and skill names in the game are a bit...tongue in cheek? Not sure that's quite the right phrase, but close enough. There are many, many nods and references.

Anyway, this is DEFINITELY the wrong topic for this, lol.

If I'm feeling particularly brave or drunk one day, I'll make a thread about it on the Forge. I've seen you guys completely rip apart games that I think are probably a lot better made than mine, though, so you can understand my reluctance.

I'm semi-sorta dipping into this crap right now, and generally it seems that yes this is the trend. Not involved with Forge at all but I gather the concept is that these are mostly pure "N" games with mild to moderate "G" components for basic conflict resolution (more G over time, perhaps due to the realization that 100% MTP bores/frustrates a lot of people). The responsibility for "S" is exported almost entirely onto the GM/players (e.g. the infamous "arguing over adjectives" feature that also found its way into D&D4e).

To point out the irony of your post (excuse me if you were already aware of it), Ron Edwards, Patriarch of the Forge, afaik invented the GNS terms you're using to characterize the games there.

Anyway, the Forge is not so bad. I actually won an award there for a game I designed in 24 hours. I do admit I was pandering to their tastes a little bit--the game was very pretentious avant garde. But getting $50 in prize money for a 20 page game written in 24 hours is a lot better than not even getting anyone to playtest a 200 page one written over the course of five years.

Weird how talking about the freaking Forge of all things seems relatively back on topic.