The Gaming Den

Posted: **Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:47 am**

Bane Knight [Tome of Tiamat]

" I can see that you're wondering, but the question you're dying to ask is stupid.
Obviously... I'm the bane of everything..."

Requirements:
Bab: +10
Alignment: any non-good
Skills: Intimidate 13 ranks;
Feats: Juggernaut, and any one of the following: Mage Slayer, Giant Slayer, Ghost Slayer.
Special: Must have set fire to a structure just to watch it burn, or must have set a helpless opponent on fire. A knight level 10 knight who has joined the knightly order Bane Knights may ignore these prerequistes

Hit Dice: 1d12
Skill Points: 4 x int
Saving throws: Good Fortitude, and Will
Proficencies: Gain Exotic Weapon proficencies: Whip, Kurasai-gama, Spiked Chain.


Level	Abilities:
1	Fire Walk, Spiritual Entropy, Holocaust Beast, Plague of Flame
2	Sphere: Pyre; Bonus Feat
3	Designate Opponent, Spew Vitirol
4	Sphere: Carnage; Bonus Feat
5	Extreme Burning!!!

Class Features

Firewalk (Sp): At 1st level a Bane Knight can walk into any fire large enough to fit his person and appear in any other fire that is likewise of sufficient size anywhere on any plane of existence. The Bane Knight must know where the target fire is. The Bane knight can take any number of willing creatures or carried objects that are also able to fit in both flames

Holocaust Steed: Bane knight calls upon the forces of universal destruction for aid and it is granted to him. Sometimes this thing appears as a lion or bear but sometimes stranger more horrific forms arrive to serve.
Holocaust Steed has HD equal to Bane Knights char level minus 3,
All holocaust steeds are custom-built:
*CR equal to Magical Beast hit dice
*Huge Size (Long), 50' movement
*Either Fly 30' (Average), or Burrow 40'.
*Quadrupedal and Stable
*Natural Armour equal to hit dice
*Str 20, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 5, Wis 12, Cha 9. Add +1 to any one ability score for every hit die.
*2 Claws (3d6+Str) and a Bite (4d6+1/2 Str) or 2 Claws (3d6+1/2 Str) and a Tail Slap (4d6+Str+1/2) or 4 Tendrils (2d6+Str) or Bite (4d6+Str) and Gore (4d6+Str, double on a charge)
*Damage Reduction/Wood and Immunity to Fire and Acid Resistance equal to Hit Dice
* Anytime this creature charges all opponents within 100ft must make a will save or suffer the effects of a confusion spell (DC = 10 + half HD + Wisdom modifier). Duration 1d4 rounds
* May Render Self and Rider ethereal as the spell Ethereal 2/day for 1 minute per hit die.
* Savage Burst: As a standard action a Holocaust Steed can roar and cause an explosion of gore from its body centered on itself, creates a burst that does 1d6 damage per hit die(reflex for half). 1/2 of the damage is from fire, 1/2 is acid. Anyone who fails the save for this is Blinded for 1d4 rounds.

Plague of Flame(ex): All Bane Knights are immune to fire and no longer need to breathe. In addition they may set any unattened object on fire with a swift action up to medium range.

Spiritual Entropy(Su): The Bane Knights soul is a churning malestrom of destuction, this ironically provides him with several benefits. Any divination attempts that would reveal or veiw the location of the Bane Knight with a range greater than medium causes the caster to make Will save (10+1/2 hd+chr mod) or be driven insane permanently as the insanity spell.
Bane Knights are also immune energy drain and compulsion effects.

Spheres At second level the Bane Knight gains basic access to the Sphere of Pyre, at fourth level the Bane Knight gains basic access to the Sphere of Carnage.

Bonus Feats: At Second Level and Forth Level the Bane Knight Gains a bonus feat chosen from the following list: Mage Slayer, Giant Slayer, Ghost Slayer, or Track.

Designate Opponent: a Bane Knight , if already possessing Knight Levels, may add their Bane Knight level minus 2 to their effective Knight level for the purpose of bonus damage against Designated Opponents.

Spew Vitirol (Su) Any time a Bane Knight uses its designate opponent ability he may make a ranged touch attack and spit acid on that opponent as a move action. That opponent takes damage equal to the knights designate opponent dice, and again at the end of each round in which they did not damage the knight succesfully. This effect ends upon the Bane Knights death or the opponent takes a full round action denature the acid. (usually w/water, but we'll accept rolling in the dirt for the sake of argument.)

Extreme Burning!!!
A 5th Level Bane Knight can as a swift action cause any creature or objects within medium range to burst into an unholy flame. The black crackling energy outlined in bright red otherwise resembles and behaves like regular flame with the following exceptions:
*Bypasses fire immunity(except that of other BaneKnights and the Baneknight himself)
*Deals cumlative damage each round 1d6;2d6;3d6...and so on...
*Generates a 20ft Radius anti-magic field (this field does not affect any effect generated by the Baneknight himself or any other bane knight)
*Any creature who dies under the effects of extreme burning will have its corpse conusmed completely in 2d6 rounds leaving behind a gem of solid polished obsidian this gem contains the soul of the creature and has a value/hit dice ratio as explained in the tome series. That creature may not be raised or resurected by any means less than Multiple Wish/Miracle spells, followed by true resurrection. A creatures allies may extinguish the flames as a full round action, before it is completely consumed preventing this.
This effect ends automatically if the Bane Knight is killed. Use of this power always automatically reveals the location of the bane knight to its target.

Gratutiously lifted and created using bits of various knights from the tome and Koumei's Knight Prestige thread, and of course special props go to Knight of Giant Frog.

Hmm... I might try for another one after this if I can rifle through concepts and abilities. I was sad that I couldn't quite fit stinking cloud on the list somewhere, but having the sphere's and all it seemed needless really.

Posted: **Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:28 pm**

Sort of like it. The 'permanent insane' thing is the only part I'm really iffy on.

You do need to go through and do some serious spelling/typo correction, to.

Posted: **Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:47 am**

Spiritual Entropy(Su): The Bane Knights soul is a churning malestrom of destuction, this ironically provides him with several benefits. Any divination attempts that would reveal or veiw the location of the Bane Knight causes the caster to make Will save (10+1/2 hd+char) or be driven insane permanently as the insanity spell.
Bane Knights are also immune energy drain and compulsion effects.

I think the intent here was that, for instance, scrying and locate creature triggers the backlash, but as written looking at a Bane Knight with see invisible or detect magic can drive you insane.

Or maybe it was intentional.

Posted: **Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:39 am**

Bane Knight wrote: Firewalk (Sp): At 1st level a Bane Knight can walk into any fire large enough to fit his person and appear in any other fire that is likewise of sufficient size anywhere on any plane of existence. The Fire Mage must know where the target fire is. The Bane knight can take any number of willing creatures or carried objects that are also able to fit in both flames.

Emphasis mine. Your copypasta is obviously undercooked.

Posted: **Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:39 am**

It's a bit overpowered, isn't it?

Posted: **Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:57 am**

Yes, I believe so. I hear that a bonus feat is a lot for a class, since they were explicitly designed to be more powerful than class features. Then the immunities and cohort push it onwards and upwards. This Extreme Burning thing is minimum level 15, but seems quite strong as well.

Posted: **Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:46 pm**

Maxus wrote:Sort of like it. The 'permanent insane' thing is the only part I'm really iffy on.

You do need to go through and do some serious spelling/typo correction, to.

Hmm... I'll do the edit work.
I see that the insanity needs to be changed to something like "insanity as the spell, no save." So that its clear in what can be done to stop the insanity effect. Scrying actually needs more "fuck you's" in the game so I'm cool with it, but yeah its meant to be as the spell.

I think the intent here was that, for instance, scrying and locate creature triggers the backlash, but as written looking at a Bane Knight with see invisible or detect magic can drive you insane.

Or maybe it was intentional.

LOL, no, that wasn't intentional, and I should have noticed that, meh hindsight.
Maybe, I can add something like "divination spells with range greater than medium." which might be more eloquent overall. Does that work?

There were a couple things else I might need to edit in, maybe a skill list... No reason to suggest track as a bonus feat if I don't have skills listed, I suppose. Hmph.
Thanks for the feed back.

Edit: Copy Pasta, fixed.

Edit 2:

It's a bit overpowered, isn't it?

Meh, its "give or take" on par with the knight prc's that spawned it.
Here: http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50018 though in all actuality its not doing anything all that impressive.

Posted: **Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:35 pm**

Midnight_v wrote:
It's a bit overpowered, isn't it?
Meh, its "give or take" on par with the knight prc's that spawned it.
Here: http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50018 though in all actuality its not doing anything all that impressive.

Yeah, I think this one still wins out in that category. I've noticed a tendency towards power creep in the tome, where 'I'll make it slightly better than x' is OK but 'I'll make it slightly weaker than x' is verboten. Koumei's classes are pretty much without exception slightly better (which is generally fine), and your class is slightly better than her's--which is when the creep really gets noticeable.

For some [hopefully] useful criticism, I like the idea of true seeing being dangerous to use on a Bane Knight. But the diviner should only have to succeed with the save once rather than every round: permanent madness or permanent immunity. If they don't make the save and get the insanity cured, they're still vulnerable.

You could also pare things down a bit:


Level	Abilities:
1	Fire Walk, Spiritual Entropy, Holocaust Beast, Plague of Flame
2	Sphere: Pyre; Bonus Feat
3	Designate Opponent, Spew Vitirol
4	Sphere: Carnage; Bonus Feat
5	Extreme Burning!!!

Finally, Extreme Burning!!! does too much.

Posted: **Sun Oct 30, 2011 6:57 pm**

For some [hopefully] useful criticism, I like the idea of true seeing being dangerous to use on a Bane Knight.

Hmm... now I think that would be really bad in its permanent incaration. I don't want things like devils being automatically driven insane when they see this dude.
I do want you driven insane as the "insanity spell" curable by "Greater restoration, heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish". That effect just happens, no save. The rule is "you don't scry for bane knights" which is ultimately somewhat niche, but somewhat cooler than "Your divination fail's or reveals the area he's in but minus him. No, you just DON'T scry for them, period. I hate the effects that say "Scry for you? Make my save? *sigh*... Casts Scry again.
Further, bane knights aren't supposed to be doing anything that would let them otherwise hide themselves or disguise thier true form making immunity to true seeing needless. Which makes me think I need to spell that out a code of conduct, but the original knight code might work there too.

You could also pare things down a bit:

I don't want to fall into the trap of defending every little bit of my class, it become untenable quickly.
Plague of Flame, is actually the power that alls Knight 10's get, but if you want to become a bane knight as a barbarian thats or a monk, you totally get that power, also.
I can see how people get sketchy about bonus feats from the RoW. Seriously, though, the feat you can choose from is short, just giving you the other two slayer feats, and track.

However, as for the "power creep" this class right around the right power level to be in a party with a fighter, samurai, monk, and barbarian 14-16...
You might have to go look at that, but its really kinda right on point. The barbarian being the weakest but he does have primal assault. . . The others... they get good stuff. There is no power creep here.
Fighter: Double Foil: Beat yo'ass
Samurai: "Parry,Cut,Reflect" magic: Iaijutsu Focus (attack with all AoO's, full attack.
Barbarian: Primal Assault: Beatdown
Monk: GrandMaster Fighting style: Take an extra turn + Save or die fists.
Really Monk = any number of things.
"Its too strong" is generally the response to almost any tome class upon initial impression, not to say that you're NOT correct but... I'll remain skeptical till you give some concrete example of how thats out of synch with the rest of the boy. I want Knight 10/BaneKnight 5 to not feel bad about being in the party with everyone else.

Finally, Extreme Burning!!! does too much.

Sigh, It seems like a glob of txt, but I'm willing to hear you out on parsing that one down. The very root of it is anti-magic fires, that bypass fire immunity.
I could make the soul stealing a second power, but honestly, in the end I have always been somewhat pestered by the difficulty of some classes to get into the wish economy. So extreme burning should make it easier for them to get distilled pain or whatever. Samurai, totally steal your soul when they kill you at level 17, so I'm all ears about honestly. What ya got?

Posted: **Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:30 pm**

Hey guys, it's not Overpowered, I just made it only about as good as the classes that score 100% on SGTs. Totally balanced.

Though it is slightly more powerful than Koumei's classes, which are slightly more powerful than everything else.

Seriously.

Tome Power Creep is a goddam problem. K did a post in the WotC version of the Dungenomicon showing a Dungenomicon Monk with no goddam Races of War feats because they didn't exist yet, and how it scored 60% on SGT, and was not overpowered.

Now compare a Monk with Races of War Feats, which is still less powerful than a RoW Fighter/Barbarian/Samurai, which is a goddam problem.

Aside from CR breaking with infinite minion monsters, there is no actual way for one of these classes to ever lose to anything in any MM, yes, that includes Disjunction Golem, because they have high will saves, and could beat it with a Club anyway.

Please for the love of all that is not shit stop using that as a balance point.

It's gotten so bad that I spent 30 minutes debating with myself to include a CR change that says CR = Party level +4 is a mediocre challenge, which should take 20% resources, and fight 4 a day, and an NPC has CR equal to level +4 because of you [EDITED].

Posted: **Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:13 pm**

Kaelik as always... feel free to go fuck your mother, k?
Or? To stop bitching long enough to explain EXACTLY where something is broke, with math or some such. Other that than you're wasting my fucking time. . .

Also...
Its for the tome so its going to be played along side those classes mentioned above. So regardless, to what they score on the same game test, thats who's in the party.

Please for the love of all that is not shit stop using that as a balance point.

Uhm... No?

Those classes totally, already exist. Those feats already exist. When someone says "Hey lets do a tome game" those things are what's expected to be going in.
You don't like that shit? You don't want the Samurai as the balance point?

No one really gives a shit.
Thats where the game stands.

If someone actually wants to play, Knight X/Prc knight X; then that option has to be roughly as good as the samurai. Which is "roughly" as good as its peers.

So get off your e-peen and say: This is broke/op because of X, Y, and Z. Maybe, you'll totally convince me and I'll change those things. . .
Or spare me your needless drivel and needless hyperbole.
If you can't prove your argument with concrete examples, then why the fuck are you even talking to me? You'd do well to learn that, and spare yourself the blood pressure increase that assuredly come from nerd rage.

It's gotten so bad that I spent 30 minutes debating with myself to include a CR change that says CR = Party level +4 is a mediocre challenge, which should take 20% resources, and fight 4 a day, and an NPC has CR equal to level +4 because of you

CR does need to be rebalanced?
Uhm, I'm glad I helped open your eyes to that?
Seriously, Kaelik... just be serious for a sec. No matter what iteration of the game you play, the CR system needs to be redone. Thats just par for course, no matter WHAT you do. Don't complain about things that need to be done anyway.

Posted: **Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:40 pm**

The stated balance point for Tome classes is a specialist wizard (transmuter). That's actually a very powerful place to be, but in practice many Tome classes are slightly weaker and less versatile, but with the benefit of being simpler and having more staying power.

So when you're wondering about how powerful your class is, think of what a core transmuter could do.

That being said, what I'd like to see in this class is the sphere's granted powers being extended to the Knight's supernatural abilities, and a supernatural version of the Challenge that sets people on fire. Then you end up dealing vile fire damage that beats resistances.

Extreme burning could, as a supernatural ability, make any fires that the Knight starts bypass magical immunity, with anyone killed by such a fire being reduced to ash an obsidian gem containing their trapped soul.

Posted: **Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:00 pm**

Well CatharzGodfoot, I at least find you reasonable so I'm more than willing to hear out your suggestions.
I'm not removing the bonus feats because the bonus feats have been scaled back and really aren't that impressive. Mage Slayer, Giant Slayer, Ghost Slayer, and track are pretty tame honestly.

That being said, what I'd like to see in this class is the sphere's granted powers being extended to the Knight's supernatural abilities, and a supernatural version of the Challenge that sets people on fire. Then you end up dealing vile fire damage that beats resistances.

Well...
Spew Vitirol was for that, but its wasn't meant to be vile, but was meant to NOT be fire damage, because. "On fire" as a status effect isn't approrpriate for a 13th level effect, and people don't really care about 1d6 per round. So you're version of "On fire" has to be better by far if thats your schtick at high level. Though honestly your idea has a simpler ring because spew Vitirol is actually supposed to be "basically" what you describe.

Extreme burning could, as a supernatural ability, make any fires that the Knight starts bypass magical immunity, with anyone killed by such a fire being reduced to ash an obsidian gem containing their trapped soul.

Hmm... 2 things.
1. The point of it is that "You fires cannot be extinguished by magical means". Which is funny and appropriate in a D&D world. If not then you're NOT burning the contryside, because people are going to go "a fire!"- Magic it away. So yeah thematically, bane knights meant to be a problem because the usual solution to a fire in D&D doesn't work.
2. Again... the damage done by the fire has to be be increased if thats the case because the way you've written it... people actually dying to 1d6 damage will never happen in lieu of all the other things that could kill them.
So, I hear you, and those are some reasonable suggestions, but those are my concerns, currently. Bane Knights fires can't be magically extinguished, bane knights need to have level apprpriate on fire effect for extreme burning.

Posted: **Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:13 pm**

Midnight_v wrote:Or? To stop bitching long enough to explain EXACTLY where something is broke, with math or some such. Other that than you're wasting my fucking time. . .

You are a fucking idiot.

Every time we have a conversation on balance, I prove this fucking point, every single time, and every single time you fucking roll into your denial ball and forget it next time. It's not even worth bothering.

Guess what asshole, it's a Tome game, which means you can expect to see Conduits/True Fiends/Various PrCed Clerics and Wizards/Assassins/Thief Acrobats/Jesters/and 400 variants of the Fire Mage applied to every subject under the sun.

Those are all things that are also in tome games, and all of them are way the fuck less powerful than Fighter/Samurai/Barbarian.

That's a problem with the Fighter/Samurai/Barbarian.

You could balance against a Specialist Transmuter Wizard, but you won't, because you are a fucking moron, who just like Koumei and JE thinks the appropriate balance point is "should never ever ever ever lose to a CR +4 enemy under any circumstance."

And I proved that shit, and then I did it again, and then I did it a third time, and I've done it every single time this subject has ever come up, and the only person who has ever proved me wrong is when Carthaz proved that the Samurai can also 100% the SGT, and that just made it worse.

But every time you act like I have to reprove this shit from the first floor. Hey fucktard, PHB Monk is as powerful as the Druid, PROVE ME WRONG WITH MATHS!

I am tired of you pretending you are so much better than everyone else because no one besides you ever posts constructively at the same time you repeatedly forget entire threads just so you can keep living in a fucking delusion.

Frank at least files the RoW classes 100% SGT for picking the obvious feats under the same place as "Wizard calls Glabrezu's and uses Dread Warrior" of course, he also nerfed Wizard's calling Glabrezu's because it was a goddam problem, so I'm not sure why it's now okay when the Fighter does it. You just pretend it's the midpoint like the delusional fuckwit you are. So you want proving with math, how about you read the last 3 threads this shit came up where I did SGTs and fucking proved it. In the mean time, I will file you with Shadzar, PR, and Tzor, under "Too fucking stupid to remember anything that happened more than 5 minutes ago."

It's also called ignore.

Posted: **Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:37 pm**

You could balance against a Specialist Transmuter Wizard, but you won't, because you are a fucking moron, who just like Koumei and JE thinks the appropriate balance point is "should never ever ever ever lose to a CR +4 enemy under any circumstance."

I wonder if they have you on ignore? The probbably should

You're just one of those people, Kaelik. I never thought I'd say this but you are actually too annoying to listen to.
It maybe right about some of your points, but really it doesn't matter because your acerbic, so I can't even be bothered to read that wall of insults and blather you write. Its not even remotely worth it to hear what you have to say.
Your beligerence actually steals the spotlight from anything useful you might contribute.
A person can be Correct, and Unpleasant, or they can be Incorrect and Pleasant.
The second one people might not agree with you but at least they'll hear you out.
The first people might not wanna hear you out, but if you get them to somehow they'll acknowledge the merits of your arguements, if you can prove them.
However, you can't get past the "lets hear him out" rubric with me, and likely many others. I'm not gonna put you on ignore because, hell you might have SOME good ideas somewhere as long as you're presenting them and NOT iteracting with other peoples ideas.
Aside from that though while I'm totally willing to hear what Catharz and others criticisms.. you aren't worth considering. Mr.*shitfuck*

Posted: **Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:13 pm**

I really don't think one should base this off of Koumei's knight classes. Honeslty, the knight is made to be rogue-tier, which means you'll be playing him as a rogue-tier character. But all of the PrCs are wizard-level, which is a sudden jump in power when you enter these classes.

Even if the classes exist, the knight really shouldn't be involved. I play [Tome] homebrew at rogue-level, and I had to ban most of Koumei's stuff because it was too strong, which ticked off the knight, because all of the awesomely-themed knight stuff is done by Koumei.

Posted: **Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:42 pm**

...You Lost Me wrote:I really don't think one should base this off of Koumei's knight classes. Honeslty, the knight is made to be rogue-tier, which means you'll be playing him as a rogue-tier character. But all of the PrCs are wizard-level, which is a sudden jump in power when you enter these classes.

Even if the classes exist, the knight really shouldn't be involved. I play [Tome] homebrew at rogue-level, and I had to ban most of Koumei's stuff because it was too strong, which ticked off the knight, because all of the awesomely-themed knight stuff is done by Koumei.

Tell ya what, just for you.
1: Drop the holocaust beast, give him a Nightmare cauchemar mount Hd=Cl, this doens't visually have to be a horse however, but use the stats for an advanced cauchemar;
Spiritual Entropy: the same effect(s) as cerebral blind, and cerebral immunity from the slayer class in the srd.
2: Choose either they Pyre sphere or a bonus combat feat of your chosing;
3: Designate Opponent; Spew Vitirol stay the same.
4: Carnage Sphere or a bonus combat feat of your choice. Regardless of which you chose your fire, and acid effects deal vile damage.
5. Extreme burning: Your fires bypass resistance and Immunity. They may not be extinguished by magical means. Anyone Killed while affected by a fire effect controlled by you, automatically burns down into a Soul gem with value equaling thier hit die.

That might be closer to what you're looking for, though really, I realize I should have asked exactly what YOU thought was wrong with it instead of referencing Koumei or balance point issues at all. Cause it's easier to say: No, fucking over scry-ers isn't broke because thats a part of the game that is niche and sucks, and immunity to compulsion effects isn't that great. Than suddenly having a conversation about power-creep with kaelik. Which makes people not want to play the tome at all.
Horrible.
Still, if you're playing at that level, then this is more in tune with the DEATH KNIGHT class described in the tome.
Note that you know have the option to choose any combat feat instead of the original "Slayer" feats, because some people won't want to go the sphere route but will want to keep mauling folks with giant butcher knives or what have you.

Posted: **Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:52 pm**

I'll be damned if I know what characters over 10th level are supposed to be balanced against.

Furthermore, I'll also be damned if I know how this class actually works until the original author makes another editing pass. This is still chok-full of stuff like not saying what type of sphere access is granted and having divinations cause damage based on their potential range instead of actual distance to the Bane Knight.

Posted: **Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:36 am**

Josh_Kablack wrote:I'll be damned if I know what characters over 10th level are supposed to be balanced against.

Furthermore, I'll also be damned if I know how this class actually works until the original author makes another editing pass. This is still chok-full of stuff like not saying what type of sphere access is granted and having divinations cause damage based on their potential range instead of actual distance to the Bane Knight.

Tell you what. . .
I see maybe I'm mistaken on my approach. I generally get all my ideas down and then place it here to see what the people say. One of those things is any editing I might miss. No harm no foul. I agree with what you're saying about what characters over 10th level, a lot of games I've found are never actually there. ymmv

What I do have to say is that you're right it should be spelled out what kind of access is granted but if you check the tome wiki you'll find that the Death Knight contains the exact same oversight. It is difficult for the student to be better than the masters, in the begining.

Which maybe thats the issue too, really only recently have I started doing this tome creation, cause honestly I found that I like the tomes way better than the other iterations of 3.5. So yeah. . . Its not gonna be a masterpiece untill people have picked it apart, honestly. Thanks for all your constructive criticisms though to all.

I'll make sure that its spelled out that its grants basic access.

Posted: **Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:04 am**

That fix is quite all right.

Slightly off-topic: If a knight goes to level 10, and the PrC goes to level 15, where do the next 5 levels of a build go? What's the thematic level beyond Bane/Death/Clockwork Knight?

Posted: **Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:44 pm**

They all give basic access by default but will upgrade to expert and even advanced if you have already gained the sphere enough times. So stating that a class grants basic access to a sphere is actually a bit misleading.

Posted: **Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:56 pm**

CatharzGodfoot wrote:They all give basic access by default but will upgrade to expert and even advanced if you have already gained the sphere enough times. So stating that a class grants basic access to a sphere is actually a bit misleading.

Well damn. I guess there's no pleasing everybody.

That fix is quite all right.

Slightly off-topic: If a knight goes to level 10, and the PrC goes to level 15, where do the next 5 levels of a build go? What's the thematic level beyond Bane/Death/Clockwork Knight?

I'm glad you like it. I disagree with the idea that the "knight should be a rogue level concpet" and I don't know what you're doing with the knight in a party with the other RoW boys but this version I hoped puts you where you were looking for. (though really the insanity thing is much more interesting)

As to your second question... I'm gonna say something people seem to hate to say... "I don't know".
You could go: Knight 10/BaneKnight 5/Death Knight 5 and likely not suck, but it similar to what Josh_Kablack was saying, at those levels, the game changes to even a hazier level as far as balance and mechanics go.
So yeah... as I think about it "Thematically" you're somekind of gish.
You have some sphere's, feats and a mount. You should have some of the basic defenses required to play at that level.
Its hard for me to think of 20th level tanking, because thats one thing that ISN'T needed anymore, as everyone is blantantly self-capable. So they have to be doing thier own thing.

Posted: **Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:12 pm**

Midnight_v wrote:
CatharzGodfoot wrote:They all give basic access by default but will upgrade to expert and even advanced if you have already gained the sphere enough times. So stating that a class grants basic access to a sphere is actually a bit misleading.
Well damn. I guess there's no pleasing everybody.

Just playing Devil's advocate.

Posted: **Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:19 pm**

CatharzGodfoot wrote:
Midnight_v wrote:
CatharzGodfoot wrote:They all give basic access by default but will upgrade to expert and even advanced if you have already gained the sphere enough times. So stating that a class grants basic access to a sphere is actually a bit misleading.
Well damn. I guess there's no pleasing everybody.
Just playing Devil's advocate.

Lol, nah its all good. I'd assumed it was basic access by default myself till, Josh said that, knid of implicit in the way spheres work was my thought. Still...
Thats the bane knight.
It's not a bad class overall. Great for an Npc, burning up the coutryside, and playable as a pc, in a game with most everybody. (editing not withstanding) guess I'll wrap this up and start a new project.

Hey CatharzGodFoot, did you agree with spew vitirol, ultimately? Did you think it should have been just tacked onto the designate opponent, no addtional action required? Just a ranged touch attack when you designate for the acid spit..?