This hobby needs to move on beyond its Nerd Roots

[Dominicius]

This is a topic that I feel has already been touched upon in one form or another in these forums but I have not seen it addressed directly as of yet. TTRPGs are stagnating, the community is infested with bad ideas and beliefs, which makes it difficult for new blood to flow into the community and the very hobby itself is still viewed as a "nerd only" thing. And we are almost in 2012, in an age when even video games have become a cultural norm.

If we take D&D as the base then the first thing that needs to be done is make a new face for TTRPGs. Create a sense of legitimacy behind both it and the people involved in it. This means getting the word out as much as possible and maintaining a business image while doing so. I think Frank or Lago mentioned this before but one absolutely genius move that WotC did during the beginning of 4e is when they got the penny arcade guys on board their marketing campaign. This has brought them HUGE sales.

But we need to reach an even wider audience. That means that WotC needs to contact as many sites related to gaming as humanly possible and establish some sort of sponsorship contract. Get a few big names on board to represent and spread the word about your product. Steve Jobs was an amazing "face" for apple because he was somebody who knew and was personal friends with many of the cultural icons of today and these people in turn were the ones that spread the word about the ipod turning it into a huge commercial success.

Another good example of legitimization is comic books. They were once considered a geek only thing but with dedication that preconception was changed. They even changed the name from comics to "graphic novels" to this very effort and now we even have movies based on comics. Very good ones in fact.

So why can't we actually start looking at RPGs as a form of art? It requires a lot of creativity AND effort to make a game that truly stands out. Movies, books, music, comics... all these have their own oscar ceremonies and video games are following closely behind, slowly but surely establishing their own legitimate award ceremonies. Imagine if we were to give out awards for the best games out there (not just D&D but picking from all the possible games) and if we could get people to view roleplaying as a form of art. Right now talent is always moving away from this hobby, people who were once DMs or players move on to become actors, game designers, students of jurisdiction or business (or doctors). What if we could give these talented people an initiative to stay?

Next we need to reach out to all the DMs out there. What I am about to say is going to sound extremely elitist but it is the sad truth, most DM have no idea how to run a game. They are basically complete amateurs in their fields. What we fail to understand now is that a TTRPG is an incomplete product by its nature. A guy at WotC might design the rules or the setting but it is going to be the DM who is actually going to put all of that together into a game. Essentially, the DM is as much a part of the design team as the guy who did the artwork or wrote the stories for your RPG books and if he is not competent then your end product is going to suffer for it. So reach out to these people, educate them and let them be a part of something that makes that feel empowered. Even go so far as to creating a position of a WotC approved DM and start paying these people money for running games at gaming stores. Even go so far as to allow people to ask payment for their services as a DMs. Do everything in your power to make sure that the guy behind the DM screen is competent because he is going to be the one that everything will hinge on.

And lastly, actually design a good game. Almost everything that WotC did when designing 4e was fucking atrocious. We all know how Pathfinder now sells more books than 4e and that should tell you something about the quality of the product. The game itself should allow for great amounts of freedom and interesting stories, it should break the stereotype that D&D is "all about combat" (which is completely true right now) and it should be simple enough that when a new player sits down at the table he can just let the DM make the rolls for the first few games and any option he picks should provide a noticeable effect on the game, giving an instant sense that his character has power and agency within the game world. And as that new player learns to play, the game should become more fun for him to play in.

What do all of you think about this? Am I rambling or have all of you been thinking something similar?

[CatharzGodfoot]

The legitimization of comic books

You're a giant nerd for liking comic books. Comic book movies are cool (as are cartoons, if you're a little kid), but if you read the paper stuff then you probably wear suspenders and Coke bottle glasses. And not in a hipster way.

Similarly, computer games are mainstream, but tabletop games are still firmly in the nerd camp. I think the issue is setup cost. A computer game or a movie you can just jump right into. TTRPGs require all of this bullshit rules knowledge and character creation before you can even play.

[TheFlatline]

I stopped reading it as soon as you tossed out "legitimizing" TTRPGs as the first basic step, like it's so easy to do but we just haven't bothered to do it yet. The rest of the post seemed like it was going to be pointy-haired boss sorts of ideas: You've confused the end scenario for the solution.

[Vnonymous]

I'm totally happy with TTRpgs remaining a fairly small niche, and sticking to its' nerd roots. Dnd will not be improved greatly by attracting the Call of Duty audience.

[A Man In Black]

wordswordswords about comics

More people are thinking about superheroes than they have in decades, and the "fight" to legitimize comics as a medium of literature is had and done. It hasn't helped comics as an industry, though. I don't understand what your objective is, here.

I'm totally happy with TTRpgs remaining a fairly small niche, and sticking to its' nerd roots. Dnd will not be improved greatly by attracting the Call of Duty audience.

Attracting the Call of Duty audience is sticking to its nerd roots, in the case of video games. It's just banging a gong and getting out the entire nerd base, top to bottom. Call of Duty-style success is the best D&D is ever going to do.

Dominicius is (I think) talking about appealing to an audience that is not male 15-29s.

[8headeddragon]

It's unrealistic. The reason why MMOs draw in more players than TTRPGs do is because there is that much more knowledge and energy required for creating a character sheet or whatever, having any clue what you're going for, and what you're going to be doing during a game. This is several times more true when dealing in D&D 3.5e. Many MMOs are going to have a lot of the hard parts automated. Several people say that it would be so easy to set up software to make it easy to create sheets, manage maps, handle the numbers, etc., and yet here we are with every other group and every other game figuring out their own way to do these things.

Next, consider the nerds that are willing to play tabletop games, and think about how many of them appear clueless by Den standards. I have yet to meet anyone interested in these kinds of games that could be considered anywhere near "normal"; the last couple of people I met that seemed like they might be exceptions shortly became radically abnormal. In my experience these games are the domain of geeks and freaks, even if some can't be cleanly categorized as 80's nerds, unwashed social retards, or what have you.

What if we could give these talented people an initiative to stay?

Money.

[Seerow]

Honestly, the changes necessary to bring the game out of geekdom and into mass popularity is beyond what most geeks would be willing to accept to the game.

[A Man In Black]

Honestly, the changes necessary to bring the game out of geekdom and into mass popularity is beyond what most geeks would be willing to accept to the game.

Yeah, I know, I hate the romantic comedy subplot in Die Hard and the touchscreen minigame in Call of Duty.

Oh, wait, you mean we can have different games for different audiences?

[Juton]

I think it would be better if we aimed for more geeks getting into TTRPGs then making TTRPGs mainstream. Even if someone somewhere could make them mainstream it would probably cost metric fucktons of money that no publisher has to spend. Getting some of the WoW players to give table top games a spin seems much more reasonable, if the hobby could get just 10% of WoW's subscribers to give it a chance that would be a huge windfall.

[Vnonymous]

Attracting the Call of Duty audience is sticking to its nerd roots, in the case of video games. It's just banging a gong and getting out the entire nerd base, top to bottom. Call of Duty-style success is the best D&D is ever going to do.

Dominicius is (I think) talking about appealing to an audience that is not male 15-29s.

The Call of Duty audience is not "nerd roots", not at all nerd roots.

[hogarth]

Dominicius is (I think) talking about appealing to an audience that is not male 15-29s.

I thought we were talking about tabletop RPGs, in which case you need to add a couple of decades to that range.

Next up: How do we get the young kids interested in N scale model railroad simulations? And ham radio? And morris dancing?

[A Man In Black]

I thought we were talking about tabletop RPGs, in which case you need to add a couple of decades to that range.

How many of those people are starting the hobby after that range?

The Call of Duty audience is not "nerd roots", not at all nerd roots.

If you're going to break out "Those people aren't real nerds" then what discussion can we have? They're male 15-29s who are absorbed in an essentially mental multiplayer game with its own subculture. They play and discuss those games with similar intensity, interest, and passion. It's an essentially similar hobby.

[TheFlatline]

Dominicius is (I think) talking about appealing to an audience that is not male 15-29s.

I thought we were talking about tabletop RPGs, in which case you need to add a couple of decades to that range.

Next up: How do we get the young kids interested in N scale model railroad simulations? And ham radio? And morris dancing?

Find some smoking hot N scale model railroad floozies who want to get laid on a traintrack. The more likely you can get laid doing a hobby, the more popular it will be.

[A Man In Black]

Find some smoking hot N scale model railroad floozies who want to get laid on a traintrack. The more likely you can get laid doing a hobby, the more popular it will be.

Copper stains, electrical shocks, and the worst rugburn ever. Probably won't catch on.

[Chamomile]

No one has to actually get laid during the hobby. You just have to convince people it can happen, and people will convince themselves they bought it because of how awesome model railroading is after they by it to get laid but don't.

[Kaelik]

If you're going to break out "Those people aren't real nerds" then what discussion can we have? They're male 15-29s who are absorbed in an essentially mental multiplayer game with its own subculture. They play and discuss those games with similar intensity, interest, and passion. It's an essentially similar hobby.

What the flying monkey butt fuck?

All males between 15 and 29 engage in some activity that they do and discuss with similar intensity, interest, and passion.

Because all people do that.

At this point, you are declaring the NFL to be a nerd activity, but anything that women do that men don't do, or that old people do, as not nerdy.

If your definition of nerd includes Cam Newton, perhaps you should attempt to redefine nerd to something that does not include Cam Newton.

No offense to Cam Newton, he's a great guy, he's also not a nerd.

[A Man In Black]

If your definition of nerd includes Cam Newton, perhaps you should attempt to redefine nerd to something that does not include Cam Newton.

No offense to Cam Newton, he's a great guy, he's also not a nerd.

No, my definition does not include Cam Newton, but my definition does include the millions of dudes who are obsessively tracking every game he's in for their fantasy football leagues. The hobbies are exclusive, essentially mental, and reward obsessive interest. That is the definition of nerd shit I was using, and yeah, there are lots and lots of sports nerds.

Do you have a better one?

[K]

WOW taught the world one simple fact: most of the preconceptions about gaming that people rant about on the internet are wrong.

I'll leave it to you guys to figure out what preconceptions are wrong and which are right.

[A Man In Black]

My ideas are obviously so unassailably intelligent and correct that you all can say nothing that would possibly contradict or augment them, and this conversation is completely beneath my notice save for the fact that I felt the need to post this comment.

[Winnah]

I have not played RPG's exclusively with nerds. I do note that only nerds tend to buy the source material and spend a lot of time on the inticacies of gaming though.

If you want to attract people to RPGs, then perhaps it would be best to emphasise the elements of gaming that people can't find elsewhere. Namely getting together with people in a physical setting (as opposed to an online group).

Sponsoring/subsidising gaming groups at various hobby stores and clubs could have some cross promotional benefit. I'm not sure how that could be reaslistically incorperated into an international business model though.

[hogarth]

I thought we were talking about tabletop RPGs, in which case you need to add a couple of decades to that range.

How many of those people are starting the hobby after that range?

Almost none...just like with radio (h)amateurs, model railroaders and Klingon language enthusiasts. None of those things particularly attracts participants under 35, say.

[tzor]

TTRPGs are stagnating, the community is infested with bad ideas and beliefs, which makes it difficult for new blood to flow into the community and the very hobby itself is still viewed as a "nerd only" thing. And we are almost in 2012, in an age when even video games have become a cultural norm.

You say that as though it is a bad thing.

The fact is that many things are “nitch hobbies” and some of them can in fact do rather well with a small percentage of the population supporting them. However in such situations things change. The right person with the right product at the right time can make all the difference. People who look at the current state of the hobby to see the hobby’s growth are going to be disappointed.

(It’s a little ironic that I wasn’t introduced to AD&D by the “nerds.” I was introduced to it by the “ROTCs” (Reserve Officer Training Corps or How to get your College Education Free for a few years in Hell). I even got to play the unclassified version of the Navy’s war simulation double blind with referee game. Years later I helped demo some role playing at West Point.)

If you really want to expand the scope of role playing you need a brand new idea and a brand new promotional idea. Your idea doesn’t have to be all that radically different. Consider the video game market and the minor adjustment to the interface that was a hallmark of the wii. (These features are, by the way incorporated into devices like the ipad.) But suddenly you had an entire new class of people who had a reason to play those video games.

The history of D&D has been sort of like a Jenga game. I watched the tower slowly being built and I saw when they started to remove the foundation blocks that cause the tower to fall. The two strongest foundation blocks that were laid (not always by the founders) were the Gen Con convention system where new games could get their exposure in that little town by the lake (eventually moved to an even greater lake) and the R.P.G.A. system of certifying clubs, assisting DMs and providing a platform for the introduction of new games and ideas. Both foundations were eventually removed in order to keep the tower growing and that caused the tower to fall.

So if you want a good game to grow dramatically you are going to need, first and foremost, a good game. Second, you will need a good community to grow the game. In the case of a role playing game you will need a community of players and also a community of game masters. You will need experts who will be willing and able to both inspire and give good advice. You will need a place to get together (even if only virtually) and share social time. Finally you will need lots (and I mean lots) of advertising.

I recommend Facebook. Hey, it worked for Zynga.

[Kaelik]

No, my definition does not include Cam Newton, but my definition does include the millions of dudes who are obsessively tracking every game he's in for their fantasy football leagues. The hobbies are exclusive, essentially mental, and reward obsessive interest. That is the definition of nerd shit I was using, and yeah, there are lots and lots of sports nerds.

Do you have a better one?

So now the definition of nerd is limited to anything primarily mental performed by men.

Again, whatever girls do that guys don't do is still not nerdy, but now your redefinition forces me to reducto ad absurdum you slightly different.

Now all (male) doctors, lawyers, office workers under 29 are nerds.

Once again, nerd does not mean, "interested in an activity." Everyone is interested in activities. There is a separate additional element in something being a nerd activity. If your definition of nerd includes more than half the population, you are wrong. More than half of all people play videogames, therefore "They play a videogame, so they are nerds" is not a fucking definition that makes any goddam sense.

EDIT: Also, being male is not an element of something being nerdy, nor is age, stop being retarded.

[A Man In Black]

Now all (male) doctors, lawyers, office workers under 29 are nerds.

The hobbies are exclusive, essentially mental, and reward obsessive interest. This is a really loose, lame definition but come the fuck on, at least read it. Careers are by definition not hobbies.

Once again, nerd does not mean, "interested in an activity." Everyone is interested in activities. There is a separate additional element in something being a nerd activity. If your definition of nerd includes more than half the population, you are wrong. More than half of all people play videogames, therefore "They play a videogame, so they are nerds" is not a fucking definition that makes any goddam sense.

Not everyone who plays video games or watches football is a nerd, but FPSes and fantasy football are good examples of nerd shit. They have a significant learning curve to understand what's going on, reward obsessive interest, and tend to first attract interest in teenagers and 20-somethings.

EDIT: Also, being male is not an element of something being nerdy, nor is age, stop being retarded.

Age is, because that's the age where you have the education, attention span, and income to get heavily invested in byzantine shit, but still have the free time to want to bother with the investment. Gender is not really relevant but just happened to be in common with COD and D&D, that's all.

I'm backfitting, here. Can you come up with a better definition that includes as much stuff people have described as "nerdy shit" and doesn't include anything nonsensical?

[Koumei]

an intelligent but single-minded person obsessed with a nonsocial hobby or pursuit

1. One whose IQ exceeds his weight.

2. An individual persecuted for his superior skills or intellect, most often by people who fear and envy him.

3. An 'individual', i.e. a person who does not conform to society's beliefs that all people should follow trends and do what their peers do. Often highly intelligent but socially rejected because of their obesssion with a given subject, usually computers. Unfortunately, nerds seem to have problems breeding, to the detriment of mankind as a whole.

4. A stereotypical label used to describe a person that is socially inadequate. A four letter word, but a six figure income.

I would assume it's not something intrinsic about the hobby, but more based on what people decide is fashionable at any given time. So the only way roleplaying would not be a nerdy hobby is if you see popped-collar douchebags playing it in their hummers.

And honestly, call me an elitist if you will, but I don't want to share a hobby (or indeed, square mile) with that kind of person, so I'll take "it's a nerd thing" over that. But as women either A. can't be nerds, or B. are apparently hot when nerds, I suppose I would be okay with that.