Firearms in D&D: Thoughts?

[Libertad]

I made this topic on the Min-Max Boards, and I got a lot of conversation out of it. It's still an ongoing thread.

I'll just drop my original post here to see the Den's side of things:

Muskets saw use as early as the 1500s, so one can technically say that Age of Exploration-era firearms can fit into a D&D setting. Given staples like Wizard experiments and "technomage" gnomes, it's plausible that gunpowder weapons may exist somewhere.

Whether due to adherence to "realism and authenticity" or a deliberate desire to relegate guns to gimmick status, game mechanics for pistols, muskets, and cannons are sort of lackluster.

In many products, pistols and muskets do more damage than bows and crossbows but have shorter range increments, take longer times to load, and are exotic weapons. In Green Ronin's Freeport series of books, a gun can take anywhere from 1-3 full-round actions to reload!

One could say that in the real world, early firearms didn't gain prominence due to the superiority of a bow. The trend reversed when firearms design improved armor penetration and accuracy.

In many settings, gunpowder is either a closely guarded secret or popular only among a certain culture or nation.

Naturally, I say "who cares?!" to the adherents of "firearms are unreliable and must be worse in every way!" The idea of playing pirates and musketeers with pistols and cutlasses can be cool! For character optimizers and folk who care about weapon reliability, firearms need to have some advantage over composite bows in order to merit a feat slot.

What do you guys think? How do you incorporate firearms into D&D settings? Any recommended house rules or sourcebooks with good Age of Exploration-era gun stats?

And just another thing to throw out for fun: How about modern-era firearms?

[virgil]

Advance them to breech-loading technology, then give them the same stats as a crossbow except switch out threat range for x3 critical multiplier. Bam, done!

[Ice9]

If you're talking 3E crossbows though, nobody uses them past low levels because they suck. Anything that takes an action to load is going to suck, all the more so if it isn't adding a stat to damage.

Basically, you have three routes for guns:
1) They take actions to load. Beyond low levels, nobody uses a gun as a primary weapon, it's something you fire in the first round and then switch to a sword. Accurate for some periods in history, but doesn't really support being a gunslinger. Even in this case, they need something to make up for the lack of stat-to-damage.

2) They can fire at the full rate, like bows. Again, if they don't add a stat to damage, they need something to make up for it, such as high base damage or armor piercing.

3) They do such huge damage that it actually makes up for the huge reloading time. I'm talking like "Tome Assassin" level damage. The main issue is that if you go this route, it really has to be level based, or else guns will pwn all at low levels and get less useful over time. Also, it still leaves the optimal strategy as "carry like 10 guns, get Quick Draw, draw a new one for every shot."


How not to do it - like Pathfinder. They make guns an Exotic weapon, very expensive, crappy to use unless you have several feats and class features devoted to it, and even then not all that great.
Although if you ignore the "basic firearms", jump straight to the advanced ones, drop the cost of ammo by 90%, and take enough levels of Gunslinger with the right feats, you get a reasonable option. Not an amazing one, but somebody that can hang out with a Ranger and not be useless. Mind you, that still doesn't explain why that one nation uses them to equip their army, because they're still terrible for that purpose.

[hyzmarca]

Two words: touch attack.

Herr Mauser says that your +10 Full Plate can suck a barrel of cocks.

[Mask_De_H]

Two words: touch attack.

Herr Mauser says that your +10 Full Plate can suck a barrel of cocks.

Two words: Who cares?

Or how about one compound word: Spellcasters

Being able to hit touch AC for low damage isn't really an important thing outside of low levels unless there's a lot of damage behind it (like a Flasked Avenger Rogue). It certainly isn't a big deal when the people expected to be shooting things of that nature are, you know, dropping Disintegrate or Flesh to Stone or something. Or are of a high enough level that the +10 Full Plate doesn't matter given their to-hit.

Try again.

[nockermensch]

Two words: touch attack.

Herr Mauser says that your +10 Full Plate can suck a barrel of cocks.

This is hilarious since historic full plate armor was actually proofed against that age's pistols. As in, the armorsmith would shoot at the armor and verify the bullets didn't go through.

Guns (and Crossbows!) should actually have a STR score, and you'd this score for damage and for hitting too, representing the actual armor piercing properties of something with a lot of kinetic energy.

So, hitting with a crossbow would be BAB + shooter's dex + crossbow str + assorted bonus; damage would be base damage dice + crossbow str + assorted bonus.

Somebody good at math could work how high the STR of these weapons should be to make them playable and interesting choices.

[PoliteNewb]

I'm in favor of weird shit like machine guns and death rays...as magic item style devices. Realistic firearms are like any kind of realism in 3E D&D...kinda shitty.

Oh, and FFT style guns that you can load magic into and shoot them...that's cool.

[Winnah]

Firearms were around much earlier, though you would be talking about bombards and cannons, rather than anything resembling a modern firearm.

The biggest issue would be the prevelance of gunpowder. How do you balance "enough powder to be able to fire your flintlock in every battle" vs. "enough powder to cause structural damage to a dungeon?"

I don't have a problem with firearms in a game, so long as they have a reasonable ruleset covering the practicalities seige weaponry and explosives in the game setting.

Freeport: City of Adventure has some basic rules for firearms, similar to what you described in the OP. Though most of the superior weapons available are unique or limited, due to the development of personal firearms being in it's infancy.

[Maxus]

Most attempts I've seen for firearms in D&D try to be period-accurate and realistic for the firearms of the later medieval/renaissance period, at the outside.

This leads to way overcomplicated rules and firearms sucking as a weapon.

I honestly don't have a problem with D&D land having erratic tech levels. I mean, they should be having waterwheels and wells that run off of Decanters of Endless Water, and they have very, very sophisticated machinery in semi-common use (look at the trap rules and try to figure out how to line that shit up. ). Someone working out cartridge-style bullets isn't too unfeasible, especially when you have the ability to call up the Tech Support on the Plane of Mechanus and ask them how they'd handle it, or the ability to pay someone to call them for you.

Just, yeah. If I ever ran a game where firearms were common, I'd have the complicated-rules loading for cannons and other extremely large guns, and then have revolvers for handguns. Rifles and such would be a bit more complicated.


tl;dr I don't see much gained by having D&D guns be flintlock when they wouldn't be that good or that exciting, and the rules would be yet another thing to keep track of round-by-round. There's in-setting waves to gracefully handwave revolvers or something that could have simpler rules and be worth the trouble to carry.

[Parthenon]

Reloading any firearm up to magazines is going to take way too long in a game where 6 seconds is life or death and you really need to be doing something useful every turn. I see firearms in D&D combat being single use pistols used in a similar way to acid flasks- very useful for Rogues but thats about it.

Actually, I can see two firearms that could be used- pistols which are single shot throwaway guns for rogues that you duel-wield with a range increment of 20ft and you shoot several of, and blunderbusses which as a Standard action you pull out and shoot as a touch attack with a 10ft range increment. Its an extra option for melee guys for if they take one hand off their greatsword and shoot someone - if they can't charge or don't want to.

Actually, if you give the blunderbuss something like a bull rush effect with like a +5 bonus plus 3 x weapon magical bonus then its an extra ranged attack with some tactical benefits, especially if you have a minimum strength requirement so not everyone takes one.

But I can't see the use of a character that uses a single gun for the whole combat since at higher levels they'd need to be shooting 20-30 times without pausing to reload which isn't something you really want happening.

[tussock]

Historically, IRL adventurers used mace-guns and ace-guns to avoid switching after the shot, multi-barrel weapons to gain extra shots (six barrels was fairly common around the various rods), or a brace of pistols to quick-draw, more so once the wheellock was in use, but misfires and just missing was common, so swords were still carried.

For hunting big prey there's a few examples of multi-barrel spear-guns, so you stick the animal with a barbed spear and then unload 4+ bullets alongside.

Plenty of ways to have usable guns, at least for the first few rounds. But yeh, also plenty of ways to build grenades, or big organ guns, petards, field cannon. Real gunpowder was often just used to blow shit up or fire massive stone balls around. But if you already ignore trebuchets and ballistae, who cares.

[virgil]

Oh yeah, forgot to include that. In my personal games, and I'm sure I discussed this before...

Pistol - Simple weapon*, move action reload, 1d6/x3, xbow rng
Rifle - Simple weapon*, move action reload, 1d8/x3, xbow rng
* Having martial proficiency turned it into a free action to reload

Capable of building the gun to be mighty as the longbow, holding a larger powder charge reliably and requiring higher strength to handle the recoil and retain accuracy.

[Parthenon]

Multi-barrel is nice, but seriously just no.

Look, lets think about a level 6 full BAB guy who has been hasted and has the Rapid Shot feat. Pretty basic and still in the level range where it actually matters, but he's making 4 shots a turn with his gun, with the combat lasting 4 turns because the DM decided to go for lots of weaker enemies. He's shooting 16 times with the multi-barrel gun.

Do you really think that anyone will be carrying around a 16 or 20 barrel gun? And if its something relatively sane like 8-10 barrels, how fucking long would it take to reload? We're talking a couple of rounds wasted reloading midway through the fight.

A brace of disposable pistols (within the fight, reloadable after) is really the only way to have fight long firearm capability without 20th century firearms and magazines, or gun emplacements like mounted machine guns.

[OgreBattle]

Guns (and crossbows) work as one shot weapons for primarily melee guys.

I'm fine with guns, blunderbusses, and hey throw grenades in there too as a 'vancian' resource for guys to do once a combat.

A lot of folks enjoy blaster wizards, they like having their bandolier of magic missiles and a few fireballs loaded in their mental revolver. Guns can be handled in the same manner. The gun guy gets his bandolier (magic missile), his blunderbuss (burning hands), and some bombs (fireball) to chuck.







...but if there's a way to be This Guy All Day Erryday in a D&D campaign, then yeah that's great too.

[Prak]

big organ guns

I now have a mental image of a halfling in a battered top hat popping up out of the top of an apparatus of qwalish with a hand cranked gatling gun, smoking a cigar and just cranking away, laying waste to an group of enemies....
And I want to play him.

Multi-barrel is nice, but seriously just no.

Look, lets think about a level 6 full BAB guy who has been hasted and has the Rapid Shot feat. Pretty basic and still in the level range where it actually matters, but he's making 4 shots a turn with his gun, with the combat lasting 4 turns because the DM decided to go for lots of weaker enemies. He's shooting 16 times with the multi-barrel gun.

Do you really think that anyone will be carrying around a 16 or 20 barrel gun? And if its something relatively sane like 8-10 barrels, how fucking long would it take to reload? We're talking a couple of rounds wasted reloading midway through the fight.

I imagine they're getting loaded with a roided version of these:

[Koumei]

I'm not really that excited by firearms, not being an American, but when I do include them in games (ie Dungeon Crusade and Disgaeagame), I generally go with stuff to make them as good as the other options.

In Dungeon Crusade that's easy: yes, most guns have a range of "you could charge the enemy", but they do fairly large whacks of damage (usually energy types) and tend to crit painfully. Plasma guns ans shit are touch attacks. And obviously, most guns have clips at that point.

In Disgaeagame, it's just "Sure, they might look like old pistols, but they use clips just like modern handguns do. Oh, and some of them are modern handguns. Or space lasers." And it all gets handwaved because "Seriously, whatever". That's before we get into "Laser guns that fire Scorching Rays" and "Hollow bullets full of acid that are Fire Trapped".

[Red Archon]

Guns are low-level play anyway. What difference does it make that they become obsolete as magic power increases? As if swords and bows didn't as well. At notable levels, the cleric doesn't give a shit wheter it's a warhammer or a barstool in his hand, or if he's shooting with a pulsar rifle or a shortbow, because after the low-level shenanigans end at about CL5, spells, class features and feats are the only thing that really makes a difference and I want to underline that that's how it's supposed to be. The current DMG rules are pretty much viable even though the weapons do underwhelming damage compared to what they do IRL. Just toss the reloading problems with a level 6 feat and you're golden.

[BearsAreBrown]

I agree with Ice9's three routes to firearms but would like to expand on them.

You also having 'magic guns' ala Gun Mages where you just refluff Wands or treat them like Spell-Holding Crossbows. Or you can design a class around it as many have.

You also have melee guns. These are extremely cool and should be in every game because of how cool they are. You treat these by allowing a huge touch attack after a successful melee attack. You can give these impractical reload times because it doesn't gimp the fighter, they can still use melee.

[Maxus]

Another thought: This is D&D.

You probably have Fabrication boxes that make more bullets when you throw all the makings in there, and magic clips/bandoliers that doesn't run out of your basic bullet.

If your shtick is "I use a gun", past level 5 you should just never run out of bullets. Past level 10 you should have bread-and-butter magic bullets on tap.

[koz]

I agree with Maxus. When it comes to the mechanics of it, it should either be an option on a par with other options (which means that it needs to compete with longbows or just not be there). 'Historical accuracy' can go die in a fire as far as this is concerned - if the option is there, it should be worth using, and not be a coolness trap that punishes people for interesting concepts.

As far as being a thematic fit, for me, DnD has always been Iron Age Heroes, and thus, I don't think guns have a place in it. That is, however, simply an issue of thematics and preferences - if one of my players wanted something like a gun, there are plenty of 'high tech' civilizations available for them to get them from (devils, gith, drow, whatever).

[CatharzGodfoot]

Pistols are cool in D&D land when you can cock them one-handed, which lets you do the ever radical pirate/jedi dual-wielding pistol/saber combo. They're also cool because they go 'boom'.

D&D is really bad at supporting slow-powerful attacks, and the longbow is already a machine gun sniper rifle. So your recourse there is basically to make two-hand cannons, shotguns (sorry Ash), and RPGs with line, cone, and blast effects.

With that you've filled a few relatively unoccupied niches: the ranged guy with a tower shield (throwers notwithstanding), the guy who uses two ranged weapons at once (throwers notwithstanding), the guy who uses a ranged weapon and a melee weapon at once (throwers notwithstanding), and the non-magical blaster (throwers notwithstanding).

In all of these cases, you can't make reloading slower than drawing a weapon. If you do, players will cover themselves in loaded guns and then just draw and drop. Which is somewhat historically accurate, but really annoying.

Code: Select all

Weapon          Damage  Critical    Range
Revolver        1d6 P    x3          60'
Hand Cannon     2d6 P    -           *
Rocket Launcher 2d6 S    -           *
Shotgun         2d6 S    -           *

Revolver: A revolver can fire six shots before it must be reloaded. Reloading requires two hands and takes as much time as drawing a weapon. Magical revolvers reload automagically without taking an action.

Hand cannon: A hand cannon requires two hands to wield and reload, and can be reloaded in the same amount of time as drawing a weapon. Rather than needing an attack roll to hit, a hand cannon deals damage in a 5' wide line out to medium range (reflex DC 10 + BAB/2 + Dex for half). Enhancement bonuses to hit add to the reflex save DC.

Rocket Launcher: A rocket launcher requires two hands to wield and reload, and can be reloaded in the same amount of time as drawing a weapon. Rather than needing an attack roll to hit, a rocket launcher deals damage in a 15' burst within medium range (reflex DC 10 + BAB/2 + Dex for half). Enhancement bonuses to hit add to the reflex save DC.

Shotgun: A shotgun requires two hands to wield and reload, and can be reloaded in the same amount of time as drawing a weapon. Rather than needing an attack roll to hit, a shotgun deals damage in a cone out to close range (reflex DC 10 + BAB/2 + Dex for half). Enhancement bonuses to hit add to the reflex save DC.

[TheFlatline]

Reloading any firearm up to magazines is going to take way too long in a game where 6 seconds is life or death and you really need to be doing something useful every turn. I see firearms in D&D combat being single use pistols used in a similar way to acid flasks- very useful for Rogues but thats about it.

Actually, I can see two firearms that could be used- pistols which are single shot throwaway guns for rogues that you duel-wield with a range increment of 20ft and you shoot several of, and blunderbusses which as a Standard action you pull out and shoot as a touch attack with a 10ft range increment. Its an extra option for melee guys for if they take one hand off their greatsword and shoot someone - if they can't charge or don't want to.

Actually, if you give the blunderbuss something like a bull rush effect with like a +5 bonus plus 3 x weapon magical bonus then its an extra ranged attack with some tactical benefits, especially if you have a minimum strength requirement so not everyone takes one.

But I can't see the use of a character that uses a single gun for the whole combat since at higher levels they'd need to be shooting 20-30 times without pausing to reload which isn't something you really want happening.

Food for thought: In close combat melee weapons ruled all the way into the 19th century. A naval boarding action would include firearms, but once you shot it, you had a club. The people who kept shooting were the marines in the topmasts.

Ironically, period firearms would fit much, *much* better in 4th edition than in 3rd. They'd be encounter level powers. Probably the equivalent to touch attack, and do pretty serious damage.

[Lokathor]

Hand cannon: A hand cannon requires two hands to wield and reload, and can be reloaded in the same amount of time as drawing a weapon. Rather than needing an attack roll to hit, a hand cannon deals damage in a 5' wide line out to medium range (reflex DC 10 + BAB/2 + Dex for half). Enhancement bonuses to hit add to the reflex save DC.

what? medium range? Hope that's a typo.

[Winnah]

I used something similar in a d20 modern/Star Wars d20 mash-up I ran a few years ago.

Blasters and slugthrowers had their standard firing options, plus extra ones depending on whether they were capable of burst or auto-fire.

So suppressive fire and area fire attack options simply forced a reflex save, rather than requiring an attack roll. Certain weapons, such as a shotgun analogue and blaster cannons dealt 'splash damage' to adjacent targets.

This was in addition to some of the other options which were made standard attack options, rather than requiring feats to be useful, such as double taps, bursts, cover penetration and the like.

It did not severely impact the dominance of Force using characters in combat, but it made the techie and assassin characters feel a hell of a lot more useful in a firefight. It got pretty ridiculous after a while though...The guy playing the techie ended up using an armoured speeder to force a collision with targets, while his pet droids literally rode shotgun. Not the space opera I envisaged at the start of the campaign.

[TheFlatline]

So suppressive fire and area fire attack options simply forced a reflex save, rather than requiring an attack roll. Certain weapons, such as a shotgun analogue and blaster cannons dealt 'splash damage' to adjacent targets.

I hate most suppressive fire rules in RPGs. The point of supressive fire is to pin the enemy so you can move another unit to flank and eliminate the target.

Will check or you lose an action and take a penalty because you're keeping your head down. The point isn't to shoot the other guy (though sometimes that happens), it's to scare the shit out of them and get them to duck and not shoot at *you*.