Are Tabletop RPGs becoming more liberal?

Libertad · Post by **Libertad** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:49 am

I once read a brief statement in a blog post by Robert Kuntz that modern-day RPGs are more "politically correct" than their older counterparts.

Various RPGs (Werewolf: The Apocalypse, Blue Rose) have been described as carrying a liberal message. Some recent examples, such as Eclipse Phase, appear to have a more prominent message or political tilt in their works.

I personally think that RPG games have been mostly liberal for their time. Shadowrun has always had an anti-corporate message warning against the power of big business run amok. Many White Wolf RPGs have taken liberal stances on various issues in their RPGs (Werewolf has environmentalist overtones, most of their RPGs are progressive in their views of homosexuality, the "revolutionary anti-establishment" Carthians in the new Vampire appear a lesser evil than the Lancea Sanctum and the "old money" Invictus).

The societies of several games (Eclipse Phase, Shadowrun, Blue Rose) are more socially accepting of sexual alternatives to heterosexual monogamy, the developers of Pathfinder have described that diversity (in regards to real-world races and sexual orientations) are a positive step for RPGs, and this is deliberate in their Pathfinder books.

Eclipse Phase takes its message even further, making it possibly the most liberal RPG of all. Traditional 21st century capitalism is referred to as an historical failure, organized religion in general (especially the Abrahamic ones) has fallen by the wayside, the Jovian Republic faction is nominally fascist, yet it seems more akin to a mash-up of American right-wing ideologies than an accurate reinvention of Mussolini and Hitler's doctrines. The Hypercapitalist Planetary Consortium is a sham democracy, while the Autonomist habitats are the most ideal and happy societies (as happy as can be in a dystopia).

What do you folks think? Have Tabletop RPGs traditionally been liberal for their time in regards to societal messages? Is the industry eagerly adopting left-wing messages? Or is this all natter and people reading too much into things?

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:04 am

are orks liberal or conservative

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:04 am

Or maybe, Right Wing ideologies lend themselves to distopian hells that make for entertaining adventuring worlds.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:11 am

I really don't think the ideology of RPGs is really all that relevant in the first place.

echoVanguard · Post by **echoVanguard** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:13 am

This poll needs a "this question is stupid" option.

echo

K · Post by K » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:16 am

RPGs are still totally racist and misogynistic, so it's hard to call them "politically-correct" on any level.(Link is about video games, but the points apply equally to tabletop RPGs).

At best, there was some PC-ness in the 80s that went as far as to lead DnD to temporarily change Demons and Devils to Tanari and Baazetu.

As for Eclipse Phase, I think that if you understood fascism a little better, you'd understand how the rhetoric of WWII Axis nations and present-day America's Right Wing use the same play book. That means it's not political correctness you are seeing, but the effects of the authors having taken an introductory, college-level poli-sci class.

As for Werewolf, I always read it as a Right-Wing version of Environmentalism. It's a totally xenophobic dystopia where violence is the only solution and failing to conform to ideology is a death sentence.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:30 am

The big RPGs of the 90s had vague and poorly thought-out liberal messages. In Werewolf: the Apocalypse, you explicitly support environmentalism and fight Pentex - the archetypical corporate power machine. In early 90s Shadowrun, your enemy was not just capitalism, it was also racism and pollution. Seriously.

The stuff that came out in the 21st century has by and large been without message. If nWoD has any message at all, it is that Christianity is "true" and you literally have no choice but to accept that. Far from being the semi-coherent liberal power fantasy of the early 90s WoD material, the books bend over backwards to not advocate any political position at all - and they still end up being mildly conservative. Shadowrun held out longer. Loose Alliances offered you the opportunity to work with Antifa. But the recent stuff decided to mix things up by giving you Neo-Nazi plot hooks (seriously). The recent SR material isn't just mildly conservative, it's crazy conservative. Like with spreading hate against Gypsies and shit.

-Username17

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:12 am

I don't really think male chauvinism (for example) is really a "liberal" or "conservative" viewpoint, unless by "conservative" you mean "common several generations ago".

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:28 am

hogarth wrote:I don't really think male chauvinism (for example) is really a "liberal" or "conservative" viewpoint, unless by "conservative" you mean "common several generations ago".

Well, much of the Right Wing prides itself on being "anti-feminist". I mean, how many Liberal commentators use the word "Feminazi" unironically? It is religious conservatives, and not other people, who come out and say that women should "submit" to men.

So yes, misogynism is a conservative value. Many individual conservatives might not like it, but they aren't exactly raising their voices to get misogynist statements excised from conservative politics.

-Username17

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:36 am

FrankTrollman wrote:Well, much of the Right Wing prides itself on being "anti-feminist". I mean, how many Liberal commentators use the word "Feminazi" unironically?

Conservatives in Canada almost never use the word "Feminazi". At best, I would say that being anti-feminist is an American value, not a conservative value!

Duke Flauros · Post by **Duke Flauros** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:44 am

Libertad wrote:

I once read a brief statement in a blog post by Robert Kuntz that modern-day RPGs are more "politically correct" than their older counterparts.

Various RPGs (Werewolf: The Apocalypse, Blue Rose) have been described as carrying a liberal message. Some recent examples, such as Eclipse Phase, appear to have a more prominent message or political tilt in their works.

I personally think that RPG games have been mostly liberal for their time. Shadowrun has always had an anti-corporate message warning against the power of big business run amok. Many White Wolf RPGs have taken liberal stances on various issues in their RPGs (Werewolf has environmentalist overtones, most of their RPGs are progressive in their views of homosexuality, the "revolutionary anti-establishment" Carthians in the new Vampire appear a lesser evil than the Lancea Sanctum and the "old money" Invictus).

The societies of several games (Eclipse Phase, Shadowrun, Blue Rose) are more socially accepting of sexual alternatives to heterosexual monogamy, the developers of Pathfinder have described that diversity (in regards to real-world races and sexual orientations) are a positive step for RPGs, and this is deliberate in their Pathfinder books.

Eclipse Phase takes its message even further, making it possibly the most liberal RPG of all. Traditional 21st century capitalism is referred to as an historical failure, organized religion in general (especially the Abrahamic ones) has fallen by the wayside, the Jovian Republic faction is nominally fascist, yet it seems more akin to a mash-up of American right-wing ideologies than an accurate reinvention of Mussolini and Hitler's doctrines. The Hypercapitalist Planetary Consortium is a sham democracy, while the Autonomist habitats are the most ideal and happy societies (as happy as can be in a dystopia).

What do you folks think? Have Tabletop RPGs traditionally been liberal for their time in regards to societal messages? Is the industry eagerly adopting left-wing messages? Or is this all natter and people reading too much into things?

This is a rather bizarre question.

FrankTrollman wrote:Well, much of the Right Wing prides itself on being "anti-feminist". I mean, how many Liberal commentators use the word "Feminazi" unironically?

http://radicalhub.com/radfem-101/

“As humans have a prior right to existence over dogs by virtue of being more highly evolved and having a superior consciousness, so women have a prior right to existence over men. The elimination of any male is, therefore, a righteous and good act, an act highly beneficial to women as well as an act of mercy.”"The male chromosome is incomplete. All men are walking abortions.""The male has the negative Midas touch, everything he touches turns to shit … he yearns to spend his time … wallowing in basic animal activities – eating, sleeping, shitting, relaxing, and being soothed by mama."
-Valerie Solanas

"Childbearing is glorified in part because women die from it." "Men are distinguished from women by their commitment to do violence rather than to be victimized by it." "No woman needs intercourse; few women escape it." "Only when manhood is dead - and it will perish when ravaged femininity no longer sustains it - only then will we know what it is to be free." "Seduction is often difficult to distinguish from rape. In seduction, the rapist often bothers to buy a bottle of wine." "The common erotic project of destroying women makes it possible for men to unite into a brotherhood; this project is the only firm and trustworthy groundwork for cooperation among males and all male bonding is based on it."
-Andrea Dworkin

"Whatever positive image the word feminist may have had, it has been tarnished by those who have made it their own, and I, for one, am content to leave the militants in full possession of the term. "
-Dale O'Leary

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:49 am

hogarth wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:Well, much of the Right Wing prides itself on being "anti-feminist". I mean, how many Liberal commentators use the word "Feminazi" unironically?
Conservatives in Canada almost never use the word "Feminazi". At best, I would say that being anti-feminist is an American value, not a conservative value!

Did you not even notice that the religious conservatives I linked to have a ".ca" domain? Or were you too busy cherry picking arguments?

Yes, Canadian conservatives are also misogynist. Hell, there are a lot of countries where the "conservative" position is still that women shouldn't be allowed to drive cars or vote. The US and Canada are actually near the leading edge of making misogynism unacceptable in Conservative politics, scary as that is.

-Username17

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:00 am

Well, there's the also the issue that much of the power fantasy which RPGs draw their inspiration from is either libertarian or fascist

Really, if you're playing an RPG wherein a team of extraordinary individuals save and better the world, you're playing a game where the world is saved and bettered by the special few and the wishes of the rest of the populace are irrelevant or impotent. Therefore, the vast majority of RPGs have major themes that run opposite to the ideals of equality and democracy and more towards Randian Objectivism or Tolkienesque bloodline fascism.

theye1 · Post by **theye1** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:00 am

FrankTrollman wrote: The stuff that came out in the 21st century has by and large been without message. If nWoD has any message at all, it is that Christianity is "true" and you literally have no choice but to accept that.

I don't think that true, I've read almost all the books, and I have not picked up that message. If anything, it's anti-catholic, given how nWod has represented the catholic church in it's books.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:54 am

theye1 wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote: The stuff that came out in the 21st century has by and large been without message. If nWoD has any message at all, it is that Christianity is "true" and you literally have no choice but to accept that.
I don't think that true, I've read almost all the books, and I have not picked up that message. If anything, it's anti-catholic, given how nWod has represented the catholic church in it's books.

You are literally required to frame your character's moral virtues and failings in terms of Christian concepts. Literally. Christianity is metaphysically and epistemologically true in that game, even if you personally are an Ancient Roman or a Chinese Buddhist.

Various Christians in various stories are corrupt or wrong in various ways, but Christianity as a whole is still very definitely true. It says so right on your character sheet.

Note that in America, where those books are mostly written, being "pro Christian" and "anti Catholic" are in no way contradictory.

-Username17

theye1 · Post by **theye1** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:38 am

FrankTrollman wrote: You are literally required to frame your character's moral virtues and failings in terms of Christian concepts. Literally. Christianity is metaphysically and epistemologically true in that game, even if you personally are an Ancient Roman or a Chinese Buddhist.

If that's all you got, then you're grasping at straws. The 7 virtues and vices merely cover a spectrum of moral and immoral behavior, that's why they picked them.

The seven Virtues and Vices detailed below are ostensibly drawn from Western, Judeo-Christian beliefs (e.g., the Seven Heavenly Virtues and Seven Deadly Sins), but it’s important to note that nearly all cultures value these ethics and revile these sins. pg. 100-101, World of Darkness corebook.

K · Post by K » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:00 am

theye1 wrote:
The seven Virtues and Vices detailed below are ostensibly drawn from Western, Judeo-Christian beliefs (e.g., the Seven Heavenly Virtues and Seven Deadly Sins), but it’s important to note that nearly all cultures value these ethics and revile these sins. pg. 100-101, World of Darkness corebook.

If they truly believe that statement, they don't know anything about beliefs and cultures of the rest of the world.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:12 am

K wrote:
theye1 wrote:
The seven Virtues and Vices detailed below are ostensibly drawn from Western, Judeo-Christian beliefs (e.g., the Seven Heavenly Virtues and Seven Deadly Sins), but it’s important to note that nearly all cultures value these ethics and revile these sins. pg. 100-101, World of Darkness corebook.
If they truly believe that statement, they don't know anything about beliefs and cultures of the rest of the world.

This. The statement is so amazingly ill-informed and dismissive of non-Christian ethical systems that it defies ready analysis. Whoever wrote that is either aggressively proselytizing Christianity or they are so steeped in Christian Conservatism that they can't even recognize that they are making an evangelical statement.

-Username17

theye1 · Post by **theye1** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:08 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:
K wrote:
theye1 wrote:
The seven Virtues and Vices detailed below are ostensibly drawn from Western, Judeo-Christian beliefs (e.g., the Seven Heavenly Virtues and Seven Deadly Sins), but it’s important to note that nearly all cultures value these ethics and revile these sins. pg. 100-101, World of Darkness corebook.
If they truly believe that statement, they don't know anything about beliefs and cultures of the rest of the world.
This. The statement is so amazingly ill-informed and dismissive of non-Christian ethical systems that it defies ready analysis. Whoever wrote that is either aggressively proselytizing Christianity or they are so steeped in Christian Conservatism that they can't even recognize that they are making an evangelical statement.

-Username17

You're assuming it's a straight copy of the seven virtues and vices, read the section, it's not. It's a lot more broader.

The Christian Virtues: Charity - Chastity-Diligence-Humility Kindness -Patience -Temperance -

World of Darkness Virtues: Charity, Faith, Fortitude, Hope, Justice, Prudence, Temperance

I live in a culture almost completely alien to the Western Christian outlook, and it's to argue that their culture does not value the World of Darkness Virtues.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:31 pm

The fuck are you talking about?

Faith, Hope, and Charity are the three Christian theological virtues. Fortitude, Justice, Temperance, and Prudence are the four Cardinal virtues.

It's not every list of seven Christian virtues, but it's sure as fuck one of them. The World of Darkness list is just the Pope Gregory Version. You're thinking of the seven contrary virtues, which are another thing altogether.

-Username17

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:07 pm

Well, is there something wrong with that?
World of Darkness is a Christian setting, and a fairly well done one. It's good for occidental adventures. Mix in too much and you get muddy... or take the Buddhist interpretation of how it all fits.

Chinese Buddhism ranks YHWH/Jesus as a Deva in one of the lower heavens because he is still obsessed with having power over the illusory world. Even Mara is above him.

That would be a pretty cool take on World of Darkness
(World of Illusion?)

Or there's the view that "all the world's great religions have a common root"

ASIA is one. The Himalayas divide, only to accentuate, two mighty civilisations, the Chinese with its communism of Confucius, and the Indian with its individualism of the Vedas. But not even the snowy barriers can interrupt for one moment that broad expanse of love for the Ultimate and Universal, which is the common thought-inheritance of every Asiatic race, enabling them to produce all the great religions of the world, and distinguishing them from those maritime peoples of the Mediterranean and the Baltic, who love to dwell on the Particular, and to search out the means, not the end, of life.
-Tenshin Okakura

those mediterranean folks may have adapted christianity, but they didn't invent it.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:24 pm

OgreBattle wrote:Well, is there something wrong with that?
World of Darkness is a Christian setting, and a fairly well done one. It's good for occidental adventures. Mix in too much and you get muddy.

If by "too much" you mean Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, various flavors of "pagan"/Wicca/New Age, and any kind of Christianity that doesn't jive with the general protestant world-view...yeah, there can be something wrong with that. White Wolf's editorial policy has let through some incredibly bad shit over the years, notably World of Darkness: Gypsy and Charnel Houses of Europe: The Shoah, and that's more or less a direct result of their implicit failure to grasp that what they're doing is offensive to others...and for good reason.

Which isn't to say you can't have a game with Nazis and the Holocaust. That shit happened. But if you're going ghostbusting Jewish victims of the Holocaust, then it should be treated for the fucked-up situation that it is. There's no implicit moral high ground when you're knee-deep in ectoplasm trying to send the unquiet spectres of the mass-murdered to oblivion.

theye1 · Post by **theye1** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:05 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:The fuck are you talking about?

Faith, Hope, and Charity are the three Christian theological virtues. Fortitude, Justice, Temperance, and Prudence are the four Cardinal virtues.

It's not every list of seven Christian virtues, but it's sure as fuck one of them. The World of Darkness list is just the Pope Gregory Version. You're thinking of the seven contrary virtues, which are another thing altogether.

-Username17

Regardless, the list pretty is universal. Please tell me what culture explicitly rejects, even partially, Charity, Faith, Fortitude, Hope, Justice, Prudence or Temperance?

Tell me, what list of virtues and vices would you have for Islamic characters, for example? I'm generally curious.

Ancient History wrote:
OgreBattle wrote:Well, is there something wrong with that?
World of Darkness is a Christian setting, and a fairly well done one. It's good for occidental adventures. Mix in too much and you get muddy.
If by "too much" you mean Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, various flavors of "pagan"/Wicca/New Age, and any kind of Christianity that doesn't jive with the general protestant world-view...yeah, there can be something wrong with that. White Wolf's editorial policy has let through some incredibly bad shit over the years, notably World of Darkness: Gypsy and Charnel Houses of Europe: The Shoah, and that's more or less a direct result of their implicit failure to grasp that what they're doing is offensive to others...and for good reason.

.

The author of World of Darkness: Gypsy still insists her work isn't racist, because she never intended it to be racist (never mind the fact that Gypsy characters powers are based on blood purity).

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:33 pm

Regardless, the list pretty is universal. Please tell me what culture explicitly rejects, even partially, Charity, Faith, Fortitude, Hope, Justice, Prudence or Temperance?

What? Temperance is the rejection of non-needed things. That's possibly a virtue for starving goat herds in the desert, but all modern cultures have embraced some form of hedonism in its place. It's called "capitalism", you may have heard of it.

Meanwhile, Prudence is the care and moderation of money (or more generally, personal resources). So in order to be in a culture that values both of those, you have to have a culture that exalts personal property but doesn't exalt any form of consumerism. Which is pretty much just Christianity, and a rather fringe set of Christian extremists at that. You have to reject both capitalism and communism to include both virtues.

Meanwhile, Faith is actually the opposite of Reason. Meaning that every culture that has benefited from the Enlightenment or the proceeds of the Scientific Revolution can tell that one to take a flying leap. Similarly, the "virtue" of Fortitude is in modern society considered the lack of the virtue of Adaptability. You aren't supposed to keep trying the same thing over and over again, you're supposed to try different things. Remember: Fortitude isn't the same as Hope, because that's a different virtue.

You can't even make a modern American. Let alone a Randian (who doesn't even accept Charity as a virtue). America (Republicans excluded) only agrees with Hope, Charity, Justice, and Prudence. That's better than half, but only just. Reason, Adaptability, and Pride (yes, like the thing that's listed as a fucking vice) would replace Fortitude, Faith, and Temperance, which are all regarded as flaws.

-Username17

theye1 · Post by **theye1** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:25 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:What? Temperance is the rejection of non-needed things

No, it's not. Temperance is the rejection of excess, it's more about emotion then actual things. It's about about denying those emotion or urges when it becomes harmful to themselves or others, I spent some time as a counselor, and it's harder then you would think. It's also bedrock of some of the more modern psychological theories.

FrankTrollman wrote:Meanwhile, Prudence is the care and moderation of money (or more generally, personal resources).

Except, it isn't. Prudence is literally means Wisdom or forethought, the ability to know consequences of your actions.

FrankTrollman wrote:Meanwhile, Faith is actually the opposite of Reason. Meaning that every culture that has benefited from the Enlightenment or the proceeds of the Scientific Revolution can tell that one to take a flying leap

Our entire society based on faith, not in God, but in our fellow man. Our society only functions because we have must believe that every other person in the society is playing his part. A soldier must have faith in his comrade and officers, a man must trust his banker or stockbroker not too fuck him over, we trust the police to enforce our law.

FrankTrollman wrote:Similarly, the "virtue" of Fortitude is in modern society considered the lack of the virtue of Adaptability.

Fortitude is getting back up again when the world kicks you down. It's the civil rights worker who goes to the protest any after threats of violence, it's Gandhi and his hunger strike. It's the single mother who makes sure that her children fed and looked after, even when it's easier to get high.
It's the addict who spends the rest of life denying his addiction, even when every fiber being wants it badly.

The Gaming Den

Are Tabletop RPGs becoming more liberal?

Are RPGs getting more liberal over time?

Are Tabletop RPGs becoming more liberal?