Alternate Saint Versions

[Wiseman]

I very much like the saint template from BoED. It's benefits, and are interesting and have the actually decent LA of +2. But now I want to create a villian with similar abilities, sort of a "saint" of evil. I could imagine that there would be mainly some cosmetic changes, and several inversions, but what the hell would I call such a template?

[JigokuBosatsu]

Heresiarch

[Koumei]

I'm pretty sure "Saint" is a Catholic term, not a general word meaning "a nice good person blessed by their deity", so there's nothing stopping you from having Saints of Erythnul or Vecna. It's no weirder than having Saints of Pelor.

[Chamomile]

Nevertheless, saints have a cultural connotation of goodness and it's wiser not to fight against this. It occurs to me that popes and bishops and deacons don't have anywhere near this level of positive connotation, probably because you can only be declared a saint after you're already dead, which prevents power-mongers from jockeying for the position.

[Koumei]

Saints also have to be able to perform miracles. Which includes some really feeble straw-grabbing, like the guy who magically turned pilchet (sp?) into herring while it was in his mouth.

My favourite Saint* is the one who could turn bath water into beer.

*Not including Saints from video games and such.

[Prak]

All saint means is "is in heaven." The Catholic church has ways of "verifying" whether a given person is in heaven or not, generally by seeing if there are any "miracles" attributable to them. So you seriously could just generalize saint to "chosen by their god" because it's no weirder than the canon core D&D saint not actually being good aligned, or the idea that Saint means "rose from the dead and is walking around because they're so awesome."

[Chamomile]

The literal definition of a word has very little bearing on what people think of when they hear it.

[Prak]

So? The impression people get has very little to do with how it's used in D&D anyway. See, Saint Cuthbert (LN god of destruction and retribution).

[Chamomile]

It's best not to fight an uphill battle against people's existing cultural norms unless you have an actual reason. It's a waste of conceptual space to redefine words for your players, even if the definition you're supplying them is technically more correct than the one they brought with them.

[Prak]

Not really, no. D&D taught several generations of people that "wizard" means "learned how to do magic from a book" and "sorcerer" means "magic in the blood." The two words, in common parlance, are essentially interchangeable, and yet D&D manages to overwrite that in the vast number of cases. D&D has taught people that "warlock" means "got magic from fiendish pacts" rather than just "male witch." I mean, warlock doesn't mean either, but whatever. D&D has taught people who play it that there is an actual distinction between demons and devils, and that devil does not refer to the guy in charge of hell, necessarily. D&D does almost nothing *but* redefine commonly used fantasy words, so I think it's more than fine for someone to just make "saint" mean "chosen by a god."

OP, if you really don't want to use saint essentially correctly, and muddy already extent poor understandings of the word, then just call it "[God] touched" or chosen or something.

[Chamomile]

Just because D&D did it does not automatically make it a good idea for any given GM. D&D defines the subculture of a huge chunk of its players, which means that if D&D says that demons and devils are different things, within a few years that will be true. Not just in the specific game, but in TTRPG communities in general. A GM homebrewing stuff does not have that advantage. First off, by the time you've had a year or two to wear off the old connotations and let the new ones take hold, your game is over. Second, if you introduce new use for an existing word in your game, the connotations for that word will never change outside of that game, because no one else cares. This makes it monumentally harder to build up the proper inertia necessary to get connotations to change in the first place.

Not to mention, WotC does stupid things all the time. Yes, they have the resources and market penetration to make it work anyway, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't have worked better if they'd done something else.

[...You Lost Me]

The time it took D&D to do that is longer than my lifespan, so I think the point is self-defeating.

[OgreBattle]

Prophet is a good word for "Chosen by a god"

and you have lots of evil prophet types too with names like "Prophet of DOOM" or something

[Wiseman]

Double post.

[Wiseman]

So here it is. As i said, it's mostly just inverting things. I changed the immunities and resistances, and altered the ability bonuses and spell-likes.

"Heresiarch" is an acquired template that can be added to any creature of evil alignment that is not a non-native outsider (referred to hereafter as the "base creature").

Size and Type: The creature's type changes to "outsider." The heresiarch has the native and evil subtypes. Size is unchanged.

Armor Class: A heresiarch gains an insight bonus to AC equal to the character's Intelligence bonus.

Special Attacks: A heresiarch retains all the character's special attacks and gains those listed below.

Unholy Power (Su): The save DCs of any and all of the heresiarch's special attacks, including spells as well as spell-like, supernatural, and extraordinary abilities, increase by +2.

Unholy Touch (Su): A heresiarch's entire being is suffused with dark power, which likewise flows into any weapon the heresiarch wields. A heresiarch's melee attacks with any weapon (or unarmed) deal an additional 1d6 points of unholy damage against good creatures, and 1d8 points against good undead and evil outsiders. Any good creature that strikes a heresiarch with a natural weapon or unarmed attack, or so much as touches the heresiarch takes unholy damage as if hit by the heresiarch's attack. The heresiarch can supress this ability if they wish.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will - guidance, resistance, cause fear, and bane. A heresiarch's caster level is equal to its Hit Die total. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Special Qualities: A heresiarch retains all the character's special qualities and gains those listed below, as well as the outsider type.

Damage Reduction (Ex): Heresiarchs gain damage reduction according to their Hit Dice (including character level).

HD Damage Reduction
1-3 -
4-7 5/magic
8-11 5/good
12+ 10/good
If the base creature already has damage reduction, use the better value.

Fast Healing (Ex): Each round, a heresiarch heals damage equal to half of its Hit Dice (including character levels, to a maximum of 10 points healed). if the base creature already has fast healing this stacks with that.

Immunities (Ex): A heresiarch is immune to acid, electricity, fire, and poison.

Keen Vision (Ex): Saints have low-light vision and 60-foot darkvision.

Protective Aura (Su): As a free action, a heresiarch can surround herself with an aura of darkness having a radius of 20 feet. This acts as a double-strength magic circle against good and as a lesser globe of invulnerability both as cast by a cleric whose level equal to the heresiarch's Hit Dice.

Resistances (Ex): Heresiarchs have resistance to cold 10.

Tongues (Su): A heresiarch can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell cast by a 14th-level cleric. This ability is always active.

Abilities: Modify the base creature as follows: Con +2, Int +2 Wis +2, Cha +2.

Level Adjustment: +2

Challenge Rating: +2

[...You Lost Me]

Armor Class: A saint gains an insight bonus to AC equal to the character's Intelligence bonus.

I notice undercooked copypasta.

Also, I'd put an LA on this. I know it's LA 2, but the average template-surfer might not.

EDIT: Also, what's a 'good' undead? A deathless?

[Wiseman]

If you go by tome of necromancy, then there can be plenty of undead. The way I play negative energy isn't evil, it is the force of death. Therefore, deathless don't exist in my games. If you want to have good aligned undead, then you simply have good aligned undead.

Also, thanks for pointing those things out.

P.S.S. , I kind of want to do Lawful, Chaotic and Neutral versions of this now. Any more ideas for names?

[Prak]

The idea that you need a separate creature type that is almost, but not entirely, the exact same as another, the only difference being a polarity reversal, in order to have good undead is fucking stupid. It's like if they had decided there needed to be a special creature type for fire elementals, but made all other elementals just elementals.

[...You Lost Me]

Hey, I just read the rules, I don't make 'em.

[Wiseman]

Lawful Version

"Axiomatic" is an acquired template that can be added to any creature of lawful alignment that is not a non-native outsider (referred to hereafter as the "base creature").

Size and Type: The creature's type changes to "outsider." The Axiomatic has the native and lawful subtypes. Size is unchanged.

Armor Class: An Axiomatic gains an insight bonus to AC equal to the character's Intelligence bonus.

Special Attacks: An Axiomatic retains all the character's special attacks and gains those listed below.

Law’s Power (Su): The save DCs of any and all of the Axiomatic's special attacks, including spells as well as spell-like, supernatural, and extraordinary abilities, increase by +2.

Orders Touch (Su): An Axiomatic's entire being is suffused with the power of law, which likewise flows into any weapon the Axiomatic wields. A Axiomatic's melee attacks with any weapon (or unarmed) deal an additional 1d6 points of lawful damage against chaotic creatures, and 1d8 points against chaotic undead and chaotic outsiders. Any chaotic creature that strikes a Axiomatic with a natural weapon or unarmed attack, or so much as touches the Axiomatic takes lawful damage as if hit by the Axiomatic's attack. The Axiomatic can supress this ability if they wish.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will - guidance, resistance, detect magic, and mending. An Axiomatic's caster level is equal to its Hit Die total. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Special Qualities: An Axiomatic retains all the character's special qualities and gains those listed below, as well as the outsider type.

Damage Reduction (Ex): Axiomatics gain damage reduction according to their Hit Dice (including character level).

HD Damage Reduction
1-3 -
4-7 5/magic
8-11 5/chaotic
12+ 10/chaotic
If the base creature already has damage reduction, use the better value.

Fast Healing (Ex): Each round, an Axiomatic heals damage equal to half of its Hit Dice (including character levels, to a maximum of 10 points healed). if the base creature already has fast healing, use the better value.

Immunities (Ex): An Axiomatic is immune to cold, electricity, fire, and antimagic effects.

Keen Vision (Ex): Axiomatics have low-light vision and 60-foot darkvision.

Protective Aura (Su): As a free action, an Axiomatic can surround herself with an aura of rigid order having a radius of 20 feet. This acts as a double-strength magic circle against chaos and as a lesser globe of invulnerability both as cast by a cleric whose level equal to the Axiomatic's Hit Dice.

Resistances (Ex): Axiomatics have resistance to sonic 10.

Tongues (Su): An Axiomatic can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell cast by a 14th-level cleric. This ability is always active.

Abilities: Modify the base creature as follows: Con +2, Int +4 Wis +2.

Level Adjustment: +2

Challenge Rating: +2