Japanese vs Western "weirdness" in games

[silva]

I was taking a look at Maid: the Roleplaying Game the other day and this weird thought ocurred to me..

Have we ever stoped to think that, maybe, our "mass-murder-simulators" games may look so weird and disgusting for them as their "teenage sexual abuse" ones tend to look for us ? Or maybe, even regardless of audiences, mass-murder-sims and teenage-abuse-sims should be put in the same sack ?

I mean, yeah, a game where youre a fucking maid trying to appease your master (sexually even) sounds weird. But how about a game that simulates the killing of a human being and expects you do it tens or even hundreds of times during the course of a character life ? Shouldnt it be equally bizarre ? And if your valid argument for playing it is: "Im a grown up adult, I can deal with fictional mass-murdering", shouldnt "Im a grown up adult, I can deal with fictional teenage sexual sim" be equally as valid ?

Thoughts ?

[Almaz]

Japan is full of D&D enthusiasts and games like Sword World and Night Wizard are right next to Maid and Golden Sky Stories. For serious. Japan is sufficiently into D&D to have produced its own fantasy heartbreakers, which are like D&D in the same way Western fantasy heartbreakers are like D&D, except... well, Japanese, obviously. Also, A Bit Different, like every heartbreaker is.

[Stahlseele]

@silva:
it isn't because violence is one of the things the church condones while free sexuality, especially for women, is not.

[Drolyt]

Thoughts ?

Disclaimer: I'm not familiar with the game in question and I am just going by your description.

Those games are considered weird in Japan too. The Otaku who play that kind of game (and watch/read anime/manga and play video games all the time) are heavily stereotyped as anti-social freaks. Also, sexual repression is actually worse in Japan than in the US. Finally, at least in the US if you want to roleplay a maid sexually pleasing her master there are clubs you can go to.

[Atmo]

Well, Maid can get sexual, but it have its comic relief part too. When playing D&D, you can stop to talk and chat with NPCs, too. A bunch of teenagers playing anything, being RPG or videogames, looks very wierd to the Society.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I have a hard time believing that a Japanese TTRPG can even begin to approach the fucked-upedness of, say, certain Exalted sourcebooks. Let alone the Shit King All-Stars of the hobby like FATAL or Racial Holy War.

Warning: Grossness in the spoiler. Just glance, don't read it too hard.

http://www.somethingawful.com/d/dungeon ... hp?page=10

And you know what? When we're talking about the hobbies being fucked up, that picture is not even the pinnacle. That's like the opening move. If you can't present something that's at least as fucked-up as that, then you shouldn't even bring up the subject.

[Koumei]

Maid actually suggests people not go for overtly sexual content and just play it tongue-in-cheek (as opposed to tonge-in-vag). So it's not even the "teen sex simulator" that, say, Bliss Stage (indie game, made in the US) is.

That said, at least characters fucking each other is more interesting than stabbing each other. But either way, some people want to do murder-sim fantasies and that's fine, I'm not interested but they can do that and keep it in the games. Some people want fantasies about fucking young teenagers and again, I'm not interested but they can do that and keep it in the games. Neither variety of game could claim to be morally superior to the other.

[Midnight_v]

I have a hard time believing that a Japanese TTRPG can even begin to approach the fucked-upedness of, say, certain Exalted sourcebooks. Let alone the Shit King All-Stars of the hobby like FATAL or Racial Holy War.

Warning: Grossness in the spoiler. Just glance, don't read it too hard.

http://www.somethingawful.com/d/dungeon ... hp?page=10

And you know what? When we're talking about the hobbies being fucked up, that picture is not even the pinnacle. That's like the opening move. If you can't present something that's at least as fucked-up as that, then you shouldn't even bring up the subject.

what... was that... sigh.

Reminds me of wasp people having blue and orange morality. . .
now I'm going to go wash my mind with bleach. thanks for the warning.

[Atmo]

I have a hard time believing that a Japanese TTRPG can even begin to approach the fucked-upedness of, say, certain Exalted sourcebooks. Let alone the Shit King All-Stars of the hobby like FATAL or Racial Holy War.

Warning: Grossness in the spoiler. Just glance, don't read it too hard.

http://www.somethingawful.com/d/dungeon ... hp?page=10

And you know what? When we're talking about the hobbies being fucked up, that picture is not even the pinnacle. That's like the opening move. If you can't present something that's at least as fucked-up as that, then you shouldn't even bring up the subject.

what... was that... sigh.

Reminds me of wasp people having blue and orange morality. . .
now I'm going to go wash my mind with bleach. thanks for the warning.

Then don't look at my Pixiv favorites...

[Username17]

You got gay romance games like Blue Rose, but that's only even questionable content if you're homophobic or you think the idea of role playing "romance" with your gaming buddies is unappealing. And of course, America has honest to goodness Hentai RPGs, that are mostly terrible because they are terrible rather than because they allow you to make shit armor out of shit.

But really, we should and do hold games to different standards when they hold themselves up as a perverted romp to play with your boyfriend than when they attempt to present themselves as normal RPGs you might play with people you just met. Werewolf's dog fucking offends me a lot more than Black Tokyo's vagina-based murder because the game is not presented as a repository of gross-out humor and perverse titillation.

People indulging in sexual fetishes I don't have is fine as long as everyone consents and no one gets hurt. Having people spring their rape fantasies on people in other contexts is the moral equivalent of Frotteurism.

FATAL is repulsive and abhorrent, but people are free to do that because freedom of speech, they aren't hurting anyone, blah blah blah. FATAL actually becomes "not OK" when they pretend it isn't gross-out humor and fap material and try to convince us that it's a serious game and "FATAL" stands for "From Another Time Another Land". And Exalted would be OK if they put "supernatural pedo-rape fantasy adventure game" on the front. But they fucking don't. And that's why it's not OK.

-Username17

[Corsair114]

You got gay romance games like Blue Rose, but that's only even questionable content if you're homophobic or you think the idea of role playing "romance" with your gaming buddies is unappealing. And of course, America has honest to goodness Hentai RPGs, that are mostly terrible because they are terrible rather than because they allow you to make shit armor out of shit.

But really, we should and do hold games to different standards when they hold themselves up as a perverted romp to play with your boyfriend than when they attempt to present themselves as normal RPGs you might play with people you just met. Werewolf's dog fucking offends me a lot more than Black Tokyo's vagina-based murder because the game is not presented as a repository of gross-out humor and perverse titillation.

People indulging in sexual fetishes I don't have is fine as long as everyone consents and no one gets hurt. Having people spring their rape fantasies on people in other contexts is the moral equivalent of Frotteurism.

FATAL is repulsive and abhorrent, but people are free to do that because freedom of speech, they aren't hurting anyone, blah blah blah. FATAL actually becomes "not OK" when they pretend it isn't gross-out humor and fap material and try to convince us that it's a serious game and "FATAL" stands for "From Another Time Another Land". And Exalted would be OK if they put "supernatural pedo-rape fantasy adventure game" on the front. But they fucking don't. And that's why it's not OK.

-Username17

That actually reminds me a bit I read about a kickstarter project by the name of Tentacle Bento, who the developers of swore up and down throughout its kickstarter that is just wholesome entertainment, and the fact that you're a "slimy tentatcle monster posing as a school girl going to an all girl's school" is totally coincidental, and that they're definitely not trying to allude to tentacle rape in any fashion. Which was a lot creepier, and rather more insulting, than them coming out and saying "We're making a game where you play a tentacle rape monster, or maybe a well behaved tentacle monster in an ode to the likes of La Blue Girl."[/url]

[DSMatticus]

FATAL actually becomes "not OK" when they pretend it isn't gross-out humor and fap material

Should any anus be stretched beyond the limit as determined by the table below, which differs from anus to anus, the orifice will rip to accomodate the incoming object. First, consider all relevant modifiers, then roll 1d100 and proceed to the following tables:

[Koumei]

IIRC, the TB kickstarter thing was because they were happy to call it immature silliness based on the tentacle rape... genre? Except then people took offence, and they then had to try to defend it as not being about that. They eventually failed and it was removed from kickstarter. Or something. But I'm pretty sure they didn't originally dress it up as something it wasn't, it was only when trying to not get their funding cut, in the face of criticism, that they did that.

[RadiantPhoenix]

That actually reminds me a bit I read about a kickstarter project by the name of Tentacle Bento

Oh yeah, that game.

I might have been interested if it wasn't just a set-making game.

No, seriously, the game is basically this:

• There are three basic kinds of cards: people, places, and reasons for the person to be in that place.
• Your goal is to make sets of one of each type of card.
• If all three cards have the same suit, it's worth more points.

[Koumei]

I might have been interested if it wasn't just a set-making game.

Yeah, the actual sin that cannot be forgiven on the Den is "making bad games", not "making games about bad things". That isn't even as interesting as poker.

I once dabbled in making a battle-card-game (all in one, not collectable) as a time waster, based on samurai duels. But in the end it was a sort of "match a character with a stance (one or two listed per character) with a specific weapon (one or two listed per stance)" and it was just too simple and not actually interesting. A lot of card game projects (there have been others on KS) seem to suffer from that problem.

[RadiantPhoenix]

I think I would probably be part of the market for a well-made game along the lines of, "Arkham Horror with porn instead of Lovecraft," or something.

[Corsair114]

Yeah, the actual sin that cannot be forgiven on the Den is "making bad games", not "making games about bad things".

I think that is, quite possibly, the single thing I've come to like more than anything else about these forums since being directed here.

[Username17]

I think I would probably be part of the market for a well-made game along the lines of, "Arkham Horror with porn instead of Lovecraft," or something.

I made an Arkham Horror boardgame based on Shadowrun in Los Angeles. The basic setup works for any kind of episodic adventure, regardless of genre. I made a few improvements to the engine (drawing the event card at the beginning of the turn, giving encounters on turns that board elements are used, combining the encounters phases, having the special problem encounters on the token rather than moving your character to an off-board location, letting players trade partially completed missions, letting players attempt to sneak without extra risks, etc.), but there are still a lot of things I'd do differently if I was making it over from scratch.

• The final battle is bullshit. You can put lipstick on that pig, but it's just a die rolling exercise. Win or lose, it's not very fun. The Final Battle should be the Final Act. During the Final Act, you have a way to win the game, but a harsh time limit or potential scenario where you can lose outright.
• Focus is too fiddly. People fuck it up all the time, and it really doesn't add much to the game. Characters should just have between two and four layouts that have different relative strengths and weaknesses and the ability to simply select one with all its glory and flaws at the beginning of the turn. Going into Stealth mode because there's a stealth thing you want to do this turn is reasonable - moving two clicks towards being more stealthy because you are in another world and can't use your movement and are statistically more likely to need stealth than speed for the next two turns is not.
• Streets Locations are bullshit. People want to have encounters every turn, they should have encounters every turn. The hub locations that the enemies move through should also be locations that you have encounters in. If you set someone on street sweeping, or you can't quite get to where you need to be, an encounter of some kind should still happen.
• Skills need to be foreshadowed more and they should be used more. As is, not every encounter requires a roll and there are six damn attributes. When you get an item or skill card that boosts one of your attributes, it is very likely that you will never use it, even in 15 turn game. Not only should the locations and problems present a most likely attribute that shows up at least a third of the time on the cards (that is clear from the board), but most encounters should give you a choice between two different skill uses.

-Username17

[Dogbert]

My only beef against Japanese tabletop games is that I have yet to see one that isn't a crime against usability, or one without game design concepts as obsolete as their notions on pop music.

[Atmo]

My only beef against Japanese tabletop games is that I have yet to see one that isn't a crime against usability, or one without game design concepts as obsolete as their notions on pop music.

Examples?

[Dogbert]

Maid. Its fixation with tables is what mostly springs to my mind but I can't be bothered into reading it again to give you the full details, sorry.

I'd also mention Tenra Bansho Zero or Bird Studio's DB-Z' one (the only system actually worse than Palladiun), but those two are already old, so accusing them of being outdated is dumb.

[Aryxbez]

I think that is, quite possibly, the single thing I've come to like more than anything else about these forums since being directed here.

If you don't mind me asking, who/how were you directed to here? I myself am not quite sure how a friend of mine rediscovered this forum for me. As well how people find this forum in general (more reasonable fellows, the better, but all the same).

Also, what's so outdated about "Tenra Bansho Zero " design wise Dogbert?

[Corsair114]

If you don't mind me asking, who/how were you directed to here? I myself am not quite sure how a friend of mine rediscovered this forum for me. As well how people find this forum in general (more reasonable fellows, the better, but all the same).

I found my way here thoughlinks that popped up in this thread discussing pen'n'paper RPG's over on the Fantasy Strike forums.

[Atmo]

Maid. Its fixation with tables is what mostly springs to my mind but I can't be bothered into reading it again to give you the full details, sorry.

I'd also mention Tenra Bansho Zero or Bird Studio's DB-Z' one (the only system actually worse than Palladiun), but those two are already old, so accusing them of being outdated is dumb.

Maid: The Table RPG? Its kinda fun when you are creating your girl, then everyone scrams to "hell'out o'ere" because reasons.

Tenra Bansho is more "theatrical RPG mode", for what i read and understood.

Actually, we kinda have one JTRPG translated in English: Sword World RPG 2.0. The wiki finished book 1, missing books 2 and 3. Other is Double Cross, who i can't find a "yo ho" version. Meikyuu Kingdom is very tabletop, with cards and a fixed goal. Night Wizard! 2E is very straight forward modern days dungeon crawl; they don't even have Skills. Zettai Reido RPG is what this topic is after: crazy sexual motivated japanese tabletop RPG; angel/devil women with a dick is so common as tower of dicks or... yeah.

[flare22]

Thoughts ?

Disclaimer: I'm not familiar with the game in question and I am just going by your description.

Those games are considered weird in Japan too. The Otaku who play that kind of game (and watch/read anime/manga and play video games all the time) are heavily stereotyped as anti-social freaks. Also, sexual repression is actually worse in Japan than in the US. Finally, at least in the US if you want to roleplay a maid sexually pleasing her master there are clubs you can go to.

I have never been to japan but the feeling i get is that a otaku is about the same a nerd in america they both have stereotypes associeted with them and are stigmatized and considered socaily inept same as america no better no worse

But as for japanese sexualty they have about as many weird quirks as any contry and id say their at least as sexualy open if not more so then then us what with used panties being sold in vending machines legalized prostitution and porn just as redily avialable as in the usa. they have some weird quirks mostly because they were repressed up until sudden contact with the west courtesy of comadore perry forced them to evolve culturaly at a fast rate. Now their more or less as sexualy open as the american soldiers stationed on their soil.