How would D&D have evolved if there was no Cleric?

[OgreBattle]

So we know that the Cleric first appeared as a special antagonist to wail on a PC vampire (named Sir Fang), and from there it turned into a regular core class.

But what if this special case never happened? Was divine spellcasting something already in the game? Would priests have been implemented as a kind of wizard? How would healing evolve in an environment without a guy with CLW?

[Lago PARANOIA]

Unlike the cleric, the pagan folk magician was already a pretty established archetype in fantasy literature and mythology. Hell, even the Hobbit had one. Furthermore, the dealing of and with spirits, curses, diseases, and of course healing is already pretty firmly rooted in folk magic. I don't see the core gameplay changing all that much.

These schticks would have either been folded right into the wizard class, there would have been a Witch class or whatever, and/or the druid would have proceeded as scheduled.

One thing's for sure, though: D&D would be a lot more Captain Planet themed than Monolatrist Christian themed.

[Username17]

Priests in the kind of Swords and Sorcery novels that D&D was mostly riffing on tended to be a kind of wizard. Without that particular special case, "divine magic" wouldn't have been separated from arcane. We would have just had "magic users", and some of them would technically be priests of Set or whatever.

Healing was an inevitable inclusion once things went from a single battlefield to a series of setpiece encounters in a dungeon environment. What that healer actually was was of course completely open for discussion. If they hadn't come up with a dedicated healer by the time they decided to include their bizarre Celtic pastiche Druid, that of course would be the healer standard today.

-Username17

[Red_Rob]

I honestly have no clue how healing was handled before they introduced the Cleric. I think it was just handwaved as happening between adventures, as back then the norm was 10-15 man parties and adventures that started when you entered the dungeon and ended when you escaped with the loot.

Once adventures started taking into account what happened when you left the dungeon some kind of healing dynamic would be needed. I could see a class being created for that purpose, although given how D&D evolved it would probably have just been added to the Wizard's spell list.

[ishy]

One thing's for sure, though: D&D would be a lot more Captain Planet themed than Monolatrist Christian themed.

Makes me wonder how much christianity benefited from being associated with a healer type (seeing as most people see someone who can cure wounds and diseases as a 'good' person). And what the general opinion on nature would have been like if they got it instead.

[hogarth]

I honestly have no clue how healing was handled before they introduced the Cleric. I think it was just handwaved as happening between adventures, as back then the norm was 10-15 man parties and adventures that started when you entered the dungeon and ended when you escaped with the loot.

I think healing potions and magic healing fountains and shit like that were also pretty popular.

[shadzar]

Was divine spellcasting something already in the game?

I have no idea what the other bullshit you are spouting is supposed to mean, i can only guess trolling like the thread about the Red Box where the starter of the thread was bitching about the houserules the DM made and knows nothing of Red Box itself and blaming it because his/her DM made some fucked up houserules.... but to this question...

DUNGEONS & DRAGONS

VOLUME 1
MEN & MAGIC
BY
GARY GYGAX & DAVE ARNESON


©COPYRIGHT 1974 • TACTICAL STUDIES RULES


CHARACTERS:
There are three (3) main classes of characters:
Fighting-Men
Magic-Users
Clerics

yes, cleric was ALWAYS in the game. things like thief were added later for reason nobody understands.

How would healing evolve in an environment without a guy with CLW?

missed this as a semi-valid question.... D&D existed BEFORE CLWs did, so it worked the way it worked. maybe read something about D&D rather than let WotC pull the wool over your eyes?

video games stole heavily from D&D and that is where the Healing potion came from.

Healing: A Healing potion repairs one six-sided die, plus one, (2-7) points of damage, just like a Light Wound spell.

sure it was used in literature and such because well, potions...its magic, magic can do anything, but RPGs were bred from D&D and used what it had....

wizards made potions.
clerics cast cure light wounds

[Voss]

One thing's for sure, though: D&D would be a lot more Captain Planet themed than Monolatrist Christian themed.

Makes me wonder how much christianity benefited from being associated with a healer type (seeing as most people see someone who can cure wounds and diseases as a 'good' person). And what the general opinion on nature would have been like if they got it instead.

Well, keep in mind that the concept of hedge wizards and witches in general did include the idea that they could cure people. But the fear that they could also curse people, and in the case of witches, steal a man's penis, was much higher. A reputation for healing doesn't necessarily equate with respect or benevolence.

[Bihlbo]

One thing's for sure, though: D&D would be a lot more Captain Planet themed than Monolatrist Christian themed.

Makes me wonder how much christianity benefited from being associated with a healer type (seeing as most people see someone who can cure wounds and diseases as a 'good' person). And what the general opinion on nature would have been like if they got it instead.

Well, keep in mind that the concept of hedge wizards and witches in general did include the idea that they could cure people. But the fear that they could also curse people, and in the case of witches, steal a man's penis, was much higher. A reputation for healing doesn't necessarily equate with respect or benevolence.

The D&D cleric has nothing about it that is uniquely Christian. Christian clerics were no more known as healers than clerics of other religions (some did work as healers, most did not, etc). The only thing that comes from Christianity at all is the blunt weapons penchant. At some point in the middle ages some bishop or another said that weapons which cut are violent and weapons which crush are not, therefore it was okay for clergy to protect themselves with blunt weapons, but not stabby stabby ones. But that has everything to do with culture and nothing at all to do with the actual Christian faith (for instance, Ethiopian Christians would have thought this madness).

You could say that because the Bible has followers of Christ who could heal people then a religious-themed healer in a game is inherently Christian-themed, but that ignores the numerous references to religious people throughout history who were said to have healing powers. There is no reason why you couldn't just as easily claim that the D&D cleric is Islamic-themed, or a swami wannabe, or based on Shinto, etc.

[Username17]

The only thing that comes from Christianity at all is the blunt weapons penchant.

Well, there's all the weirdly specific biblical miracles like Sticks to Snakes. You could say that they are equally owned by Judaism, and you'd be right. But the people cobbling together the Cleric concept clearly got the concepts through Christianity.

-Username17

[hogarth]

Well, there's all the weirdly specific biblical miracles like Sticks to Snakes.

Indeed. Leaving aside healing, you have:

• Part Water
• Tongues
• Water Walk
• Conjure Animals (bears)
• Insect Plague
• Create Water
• Purify Food and Drink
• Dispel Evil

And that's just off the top of my head.

[Bihlbo]

And yet I could make a longer list of the things it could have if it were Christianity-themed, but doesn't, some being glaring omissions. And if you made a list of the things it has that could be a reference to your pick of religions, beliefs, cultures, whatever, it might be just as long.

Look, I'm not saying that it's wrong to say the D&D cleric has some Christian influence. But if it had been made in some other country by people who never saw a cross or a church, heard about the Bible, or had any Christian influence, it is conceivable that the D&D cleric would be 95% identical. They needed a healer, decided the power came from a list of decidedly non-Christian deities, and as such got miracle-like spells. The cleric is a smattering of a lot of things, and does a really terrible job of being a representative of any real-world anything.

[Xaos]

Makes me wonder how much christianity benefited from being associated with a healer type (seeing as most people see someone who can cure wounds and diseases as a 'good' person). And what the general opinion on nature would have been like if they got it instead.

Well, keep in mind that the concept of hedge wizards and witches in general did include the idea that they could cure people. But the fear that they could also curse people, and in the case of witches, steal a man's penis, was much higher. A reputation for healing doesn't necessarily equate with respect or benevolence.

The D&D cleric has nothing about it that is uniquely Christian. Christian clerics were no more known as healers than clerics of other religions (some did work as healers, most did not, etc). The only thing that comes from Christianity at all is the blunt weapons penchant. At some point in the middle ages some bishop or another said that weapons which cut are violent and weapons which crush are not, therefore it was okay for clergy to protect themselves with blunt weapons, but not stabby stabby ones. But that has everything to do with culture and nothing at all to do with the actual Christian faith (for instance, Ethiopian Christians would have thought this madness).

You could say that because the Bible has followers of Christ who could heal people then a religious-themed healer in a game is inherently Christian-themed, but that ignores the numerous references to religious people throughout history who were said to have healing powers. There is no reason why you couldn't just as easily claim that the D&D cleric is Islamic-themed, or a swami wannabe, or based on Shinto, etc.

I believe you are in need of a history lesson.

In D&D's earliest form (whitebox/OD&D/BD&D/etc.), Classes got "titles" for each level. If you were a 4th level Fighter, you were a "Hero", at 6th, you were a "Myrmidon", at 10th or something, you were a "Lord". And the Cleric's titles include things like "Bishop" and Patriach. (and also "Lama" ....yeah, that totally came out of left field.)

Also, there was no generic "Holy symbol", there were only "Crosses".

However, because people wanted to play non-christain clerics, they published "Deities and Demigods", which had several different weapon and armor restrictions based on your god....and later they tried to just shoehorn in the the armored, Mace-weilding cleric class into any religion and that's what we got today.

[Bihlbo]

Still less similarity than any metal band from the same time period.

[Prak]

[stuff]

Is it just me, or do Shadzar's posts read like Conservative screeds, except about D&D and replacing "The Liberal Media" with "WotC" and Reagan with Gygax?

[Guyr Adamantine]

[stuff]

Is it just me, or do Shadzar's posts read like Conservative screeds, except about D&D and replacing "The Liberal Media" with "WotC" and Reagan with Gygax?

Mindless bitching is the universal language.

[Lokathor]

So quick, someone make an OSR version of DnD 1e without clerics and evolved to match the new lack of clerics.

[Sarandosil]

Look, I'm not saying that it's wrong to say the D&D cleric has some Christian influence. But if it had been made in some other country by people who never saw a cross or a church, heard about the Bible, or had any Christian influence, it is conceivable that the D&D cleric would be 95% identical. They needed a healer, decided the power came from a list of decidedly non-Christian deities, and as such got miracle-like spells. The cleric is a smattering of a lot of things, and does a really terrible job of being a representative of any real-world anything.

I seriously doubt that. Speaking as a Saudi, everything about the cleric screams catholic to me. A dude from a church running around with a holy symbol blessing people and communes with god? This is unrecognisable to me in Islam, methinks you're not seeing it because you probably already take a generally Christian culture for granted.

[OgreBattle]

Look, I'm not saying that it's wrong to say the D&D cleric has some Christian influence. But if it had been made in some other country by people who never saw a cross or a church, heard about the Bible, or had any Christian influence, it is conceivable that the D&D cleric would be 95% identical. They needed a healer, decided the power came from a list of decidedly non-Christian deities, and as such got miracle-like spells. The cleric is a smattering of a lot of things, and does a really terrible job of being a representative of any real-world anything.

Well, I look at the Cleric (and Paladin) in the way that you might look at the Monk and think "Asia!" The Cleric is a super judeo-christian class to me, his powers are straight out of the bible. His "blunt only" restriction is painfully specific too.

Now for "if a non Christian culture did it"... Well, in East Asian fantasy you don't really see people invoking supreme god figures for magic and miracles. If you have a healer, it's because his intense martial arts training also included an excellent understanding of the human body and pressure points of healing, or he is versed in alchemy and can brew elixers, or you go beat up the demon/god responsible for the illness with your kungfu fists/swords/arrows/rap/penis/everything

And if you want a western character in an Eastern setting, you're likely to make him a hardcore devout monotheist who always talks about God and Miracles, to make him stand out.

[OgreBattle]

So quick, someone make an OSR version of DnD 1e without clerics and evolved to match the new lack of clerics.

The Conan D&D supplement specifically had rules for healing faster, to balance the lack of CLWbots in the setting. You would have some kind of reserve HP/healing surge mechanic built into the game early. Potion brewing would also be useful.

So the Fightyguys regain some HP's after the battle, and the wizard spends his down time preparing potions.

I can see a "priest" class added that also includes Warlocks for the badguy version. They'd be the sort who run about in robes though. The Paladin would probably be pretty similar to what he is now, and perhaps more distinct as he has no armored smashy cleric to blur the lines.

[Whipstitch]

It genuinely hits me as super weird and reductive of other religions to think it would matter so little--a lot of common themes like animism and ancestor veneration get a bit of a backseat in Christianity, for example.

[Prak]

I used the cleric class to represent a warlock in a core only game once. Worked ok.

[Almaz]

Look, I'm not saying that it's wrong to say the D&D cleric has some Christian influence. But if it had been made in some other country by people who never saw a cross or a church, heard about the Bible, or had any Christian influence, it is conceivable that the D&D cleric would be 95% identical. They needed a healer, decided the power came from a list of decidedly non-Christian deities, and as such got miracle-like spells. The cleric is a smattering of a lot of things, and does a really terrible job of being a representative of any real-world anything.

I seriously doubt that. Speaking as a Saudi, everything about the cleric screams catholic to me. A dude from a church running around with a holy symbol blessing people and communes with god? This is unrecognisable to me in Islam, methinks you're not seeing it because you probably already take a generally Christian culture for granted.

Hell, not even all Christian denominations are like that. Some get their knickers in a knot about the idea of reaching God through the priesthood, and are quite insistent that you can't really reach God through another, leaving the business of any sort of person with that job title or anything like it to be restricted to evangelizing and moral support.

And other religions describe priesthood in such a way that it seems apparent that if any miracle is going to come from them, it is going to be because the priest has wizard levels.

[flare22]

the reason the cleric always seemed christian to me was never the class features or spells but the fact that in every game ive played in the DM made clerics part of an organized religion with a top down structure. while the class itself seems pretty versatile religion wise basing the religions organization on the roman Catholic church seems to be the only thing people think of. if people made religion in DND a little less organized and a little less centralized i could easily see clerics as non christian.

[PoliteNewb]

So quick, someone make an OSR version of DnD 1e without clerics and evolved to match the new lack of clerics.

Already done.