Disregard the Constabulary

[virgil]

How do you handle the city watch or similar figures of authority in your games? Do you disregard their existence from the PoV of the players, their escapades too dangerous for the town guard to care, similar to the role of police in super-hero fiction? Do you use them as DM-penis extensions, enforcing a code of behavior as necessary?

Presumably, the maximum EL threat response a community can bring to bear serves as the marker for how powerful the party needs to be before they're called upon to save the city from destruction. If the party is below this level, urban campaigns are closer to Shadowrun in structure. If they're above this level, there's probably little stopping them from stabbing Adam Smith for overcharging them for the next magic sword.

One thing I notice as rarely, if ever, focused on is the awareness of the authorities. The town guard ride in on pure fiat; no real guidelines on response time, how big of a hammer they bring, what it takes to even get their attention. It's usually assumed they work like television cops with a British pastiche, as far as legal authority and behavior; if they see something illegal, they blow their whistle and drag the perp to jail before a judge in a powdered wig.

Judiciary guidelines are another vague area, and are necessary in any urban environment. We have written law for as long as we have had the ability to write, so mob rule is very unlikely to be the case except for the peasants with pitchfork scenario. This vagueness is probably intentional avoidance of broaching the subject at all, because gamers almost can't conceive of punishment not including jail time, which has been justifiably hashed out here as a terrible thing for campaigns.

Urban Campaign Needs

• Guard stat blocks, separate by tier
• Legal authority & threat response
• Panopticon guidelines
• Judicial procedure

[shadzar]

Do you use them as DM-penis extensions

i surely dont want to play in any game where you are as you seem to be bent over the table often by your DMs....

they are NPCs jsut like anybody else and do their jobs, whether it is for or against the PCs depends on what city/town/castle it is and what the PCs are doing.

CSI doesnt exist, nor does trial by jury, so often it isnt a happy time when the PCs get on the wrong end of the "law".

like merchants if the PCs interact with them, then they respond by interacting back as their duty and role in the world subscribes for them to do.

view it as Chekov's Gun. i the NPC is there, and clearly has a purpose other than faceless passerby, then the trigger will get pulled eventually.

[the_taken]

Most of my D&D games, most guards of human(oid) cities are 1st level, with a few more experienced members being of 2nd and rarely 3rd level. By the times they have enough XP to reach 4th, they've been retired or promoted to palace duty.

5th level constabulary are usually those with the unfortunate luck of constantly getting into some sort of level appropriate encounter often, and actually gaining XP faster than what I consider the normal passive XP gain. This makes them more noteworthy, and thus actual NPCs with last names. Most of these guys quickly get promoted to Palace Guard or something special before 5th level, though.

[Username17]

The big problem with the police is that they are boring. Once the police get involved, things turn into procedure. Then they either solve something (which is boring and unheroic), or the don't (which means that a bunch of screen time was used up to not accomplish things, which is also boring).

Working in the police to a detective or action narrative is really hard. Usually it's just minutes of storytelling you can't get back.

-Username17

[virgil]

Completely disregarding them isn't something that should be done though. An urban environment requires martial authority in some capacity, even if it's only as a militia to die against manticore attacks. One can easily make an argument to not have/use police as they exist in modern society, thus circumventing many procedures. However, many of their functions will continue to exist. Merchants want theft deterrence, and in the absence of a city guard there will be mercenaries. Some form of militia will exist in the event of an attack on the city, be it goblin raids or even the party deciding to fireball an orphanage in self-defense. The king will have a palace guard on patrol while he sleeps, to at least keep out riff-raff. Nobles will pay the assassin's guild to find out who stole their stuff, with the understanding to return the stolen goods along with the thief's corpse.

Even if you do not have men in uniform filling up paddy wagons, you will have those who fill in the gaps that will be relevant to PCs. Except for the bounty hunter, most of these deserve some level of acknowledgement and abstraction; even if it's a couple paragraphs that sums up their presence to be as noteworthy to the narrative as the police in Metropolis.

[RadiantPhoenix]

So, for example:

• "The Guards" of a particular city or whatever has, as an entity, a Gather Information and Spot check to find out when you've done something they feel they need to deal with (And a Sense Motive check to deal with false accusations, and so-on), and some method of determining how long this takes if they do find out.
• You have a bunch of guard types of various levels pregenned in your NPC encyclopedia.
• "The Guards" also has an entry indicating which of these NPC types they use. Probably in some sort of encounter table of, "X problem detected, Y response"

And then you get into courts or whatever.

[Avoraciopoctules]

How do you handle the city watch or similar figures of authority in your games? Do you disregard their existence from the PoV of the players, their escapades too dangerous for the town guard to care, similar to the role of police in super-hero fiction? Do you use them as DM-penis extensions, enforcing a code of behavior as necessary?

In my games, the city guard analogue is generally a tool the PCs use to fight stuff they can't simply stab in the face, get information / investigatory sidequests, and provide protection to NPCs at risk of getting murdered by ghouls or whatever working for the bad guys.

PCs who have found a death cult safehouse tend to call the authorities, rather than fighting their way through it on their own. The main challenges are getting sufficient evidence, getting out safely, and keeping any less-than-legal acquisitions or deals they made from being too obvious.

When dealing with more politically savvy opposition, the city guard is a ponderous force, who both the PCs and their adversaries want to persuade into offering stronger support. The power of bureaucracy to affect the ease of getting what they want can be a surprisingly big deal.

The specific face the legal system and law enforcement presents is highly dependant on location and campaign themes, but I tend to favor games with fairly high average NPC character level, so a SWAT team of level 4+ characters isn't likely to be too exceptional. One of the play-by-post games I'm running right now has a dictator's elite foot soldiers as level 6 Warriors.

[Stahlseele]

Depends . . in fantasy games, the city guard, while being more heads than your usual group of beatniks is actually not a very large unit in total . .

modern day times police? there's a problem. behaving as players/characters do, all of them should be in jail 1 day later. game ends.

[Koumei]

The only time I've ever used the police in D&D was for silly humour. Which shouldn't be a surprise, as that's how I handle most things. And come to think of it, I don't think they've ever been the actual local constabulary. They've always been I guess the equivalent of the feds or ASIO: angels that rock up all over the place.

In the early days, I would run them as London metro police ("Allo allo allo, wot's all this then? You're fucking nicked, my son." "Let's move move move, SORTID!") Now they're obviously CSI Celestia.

"One Slain nymph, one petrified, this pile of dust suggest a third victim was disintegrated. What is this? Powerful wizard?"
"No, it looks like beauty..."
shades.gif
"...was in the eye of the beholder."
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

They were never actually portrayed as useful, typically just being there to harass PCs over their usual murder-hobo activities until they can fight the law (the law doesn't win) or fake their innocence.

[OgreBattle]

Every time you go kill some orcs in their home, you are dealing with their 'guards' and 'police'.

You could have an orc detective/ranger on your trail for murder of mayor grimtoof of grimtoof village.

[tussock]

The police are an invention of the Victorian world.

Medieval cities had watches, but they were basically glorified tax collectors at the gates. They also had summoners, who are effectively bounty-hunters working directly to bring witnesses and plaintiffs before the courts. Anyone who troubles the watch or the courts is a problem for the actual nobility and their armies, because you are usurping their position of being above the law and they will murder you for it.


So my D&D is basically a murderocracy. There's petty officials who collect tithes and count windows and acres for rates and stuff, who are all 1st level, or maybe 2nd. And if you give them trouble then bigger and bigger NPCs will feel a need to reassert your proper position in society by killing you. Once you become hard enough to kill, they give you a title and let you join their club instead, often in place of whoever you just killed if you mind your manners along the way.

If you offend enough people before that though, kill enough properly appointed knights and so on, eventually the Emperor and Pope and local Oracle will come and personally kick your ass, because they're all damn near 20th level. If you win, well done, your party is the new Emperor, Pope, and Oracle. Bravo. Also, there's trouble in the west provinces and rumours of armed rebellions, and a lot of people don't like you for some reason. So good luck with that.

NB: Sometimes even the Gods take offence, but they're not all that high level, and the same principle of killing them and taking their office applies.

[MisterDee]

In an urban campaign, I tend to have tiered constables:

1-The city watch, who handle basically the issues not related to adventurers or at worst a handful of goblins. They might interact with the PCs at very low levels, but soon become flavor text.

2-The Elite forces. These guys are the members of the constabulary with a few class levels to their name, possibly supplemented by the local Lawful temple forces, perhaps a few of the Magical University teaching assistants, and other on-call specialists. Basically, they're there to handle more potent threats like drunken adventurers and the occasional lost troll.

These guys don't actively patrol the city or anything, they're launched at specific problems and are carefully husbanded (the city would much rather hire four level five mercenary murderhobos to clean out the sewers than send their reliable men into possible danger, but you still need some way to handle the murderhobos when they come back up.)

3-The local heroes: these are all named NPCs that the PCs could find out about. Maybe some are still serving members of the constabulary, but if so it's because that's their life's passion - the city just can't afford to keep the local equivalent of a Cardinal, a Nobel Prize in chemistry, and Iron Man on retainer. More likely, they're just civic-minded citizens who agree to lend aid to the city when needed (either for a fee or for their own reasons).

These guys get deployed (or rather intervene of their own accord) against major threats like dragon attacks and drunk high-level murderhobos.

[erik]

Yah. In D&D the law of the land is the strongest badass who can enforce their rule, not the enlightened police. I'd prefer to use city guards as the local noble's/badass' thugs. Palace guards as elite thugs. These are the followers of whatever badass took Leadership and runs the place. If places are generally city-states it's not like city guards are legitimate forces of law outside of their own little cities, so it fits that you have a king of the hill and their underlings to enforce their arbitrary desires.

Having honest to god city guards who are upholding the law and keeping the peace... doesn't gel well with my plans for fantasy adventures. That's a place that has left fantasy and ventured into more modern tropes. It isn't ripe for adventure.

[Prak]

They were never actually portrayed as useful, typically just being there to harass PCs over their usual murder-hobo activities until they can fight the law (the law doesn't win) or fake their innocence.

Or until they get shot in the face by a pirate ninja.

[Koumei]

That's what I meant by "they fight the law (and the law doesn't win)".

The benefit of angelic police is you can have all the hound archons be labradors, leading to "take this stuff down to the labs".

[ishy]

The police are an invention of the Victorian world.

Medieval cities had watches, but they were basically glorified tax collectors at the gates. They also had summoners, who are effectively bounty-hunters working directly to bring witnesses and plaintiffs before the courts. Anyone who troubles the watch or the courts is a problem for the actual nobility and their armies, because you are usurping their position of being above the law and they will murder you for it.

Can you actually read a history book before spouting bullshit Tussock? That is not how the police actually functioned in the middle ages at all. Not that the middle ages are particular relevant to D&D in the first place.

[tussock]

That is not how the police actually functioned in the middle ages at all.

You know how you're saying argument by assertion doesn't work, while making an assertion that isn't even an argument? Yeah. Feel free to contribute something at some point though, seeing as how you're all full of knowledge and shit.

[Avoraciopoctules]

If I used a court trial in D&D, I'd probably take inspiration from Chrono Trigger and Neverwinter Nights 2. A handful of named characters are going to vote on the party's fate, but the PCs have enough time to sidequest their way into changing the minds of several.

Like, a tribunal for alleged war crimes might be pretty interesting. Or maybe in a religion-heavy game one of the theocracies needs to figure out whether the party is responsible for heresy or impetus to change official doctrine.

[virgil]

Guards! Guards!

It's inevitable—sooner or later, the PCs will want to call upon the town guard or cause a situation where citizens do so instead. Calling for the guard requires a Diplomacy check modified by the settlement's law modifier. It's only a DC 5 check to call for the guard—with a success, the guards generally arrive on the scene in 1d6 minutes. Every 5 points by which the Diplomacy check exceeds DC 5 (rounding down) reduces the arrival time by 1 minute—if this reduces their arrival time below 1 minute, the increments of reduction instead change to 1 round. For example, the party wizard is being mugged and calls for the guard. The result of his Diplomacy check is a 23, and the GM rolls a 2 on 1d6 to determine how long it'll be before the guards arrive. Since the wizard rolled three times the amount he needed, the 2-minute wait time is reduced to 8 rounds.

[Neon Sequitur]

That's what I meant by "they fight the law (and the law doesn't win)".

The benefit of angelic police is you can have all the hound archons be labradors, leading to "take this stuff down to the labs".

Oh snap! Consider that one stolen.

WRT police, the question inevitably comes up when the PCs break the law (you know they're going to!) -- the King's Law, the Church's Law, or whatever -- "Who polices those no-good, filthy, rotten adventurer types?"

The following should be considered to have the qualifier "In My Campaign" applied to all of it:

At low levels, the local "constables" might be able to handle them. Or the King's Men, or the Church's Justiciars... or whoever's in charge of That Sort of Thing in These Parts.

At mid levels, the King, the Church (Hey, Abbott!) or whoever is likely to hire mercenaries to bring our miscreants to justice.

High level PCs who think they're above the law are the reason NPC Bounty Hunters exist. They'll end up with a big price on their heads, and the bigger the price, the higher level bounty hunters it'll attract. If they continue their lawless ways, the price on their head will keep going up until they finally meet their match and get captured. At which point they might realize they're not above the law after all... but what the hell; they had a good run!

[Voss]

Guards! Guards!

It's inevitable—sooner or later, the PCs will want to call upon the town guard or cause a situation where citizens do so instead. Calling for the guard requires a Diplomacy check modified by the settlement's law modifier. It's only a DC 5 check to call for the guard—with a success, the guards generally arrive on the scene in 1d6 minutes. Every 5 points by which the Diplomacy check exceeds DC 5 (rounding down) reduces the arrival time by 1 minute—if this reduces their arrival time below 1 minute, the increments of reduction instead change to 1 round. For example, the party wizard is being mugged and calls for the guard. The result of his Diplomacy check is a 23, and the GM rolls a 2 on 1d6 to determine how long it'll be before the guards arrive. Since the wizard rolled three times the amount he needed, the 2-minute wait time is reduced to 8 rounds.

That is... really weird. Even ignoring the fact that a good diplomacy check on screaming for help actually spawns the guards physically closer to the party, the general premise is just fucking bizarre.

1- the wizard is being mugged. Assassins, I'll buy. Street thugs looking for cash? Not so much.

2- The party is calling for help?

3- The party is calling for help from the law? And not other people calling for help because the party was generally being asshats and an all-out murderbrawl erupted in the streets with spell fire and shit. This scenario may happen, and may indeed be almost inevitable. But the party calling it in? Haven't seen that once in over 25 years of D&D.

[Dogbert]

We need to see things in context rather than on E6 or NEXT terms.

We're talking about a world with a culture of wandering murderhobos that come and go like plagues of locusts (and happen to be just as unstoppable). Murderhobos in d&d land are a marauding de-facto Fifth Estate.

Kings and nobles are supposed to know about their existence, so it boils down to either they have means to curbstomp murderhobos or they don't. If they do, then it's reasonable to assume they'll be deployed the moment the murderhobos prove to be a menace to the administration's power (no point in wasting resources over a handful of dead peasants). If they don't, then the best they can do is have job and a reward handy to keep them busy or, if they hint at wanting to set the whole place or the king on fire, then offer the king's daughter's hand in marriage and not only save your skin but also gain a murderhobo son to defend your mud kingdom from future murderhobo threats.

Like Romero zombies, don't treat murderhobos as "villains," treat them as natural disasters.

[Mask_De_H]

You also have nobles who are former (or current) murderhobos who could send murderhobos off to murder somewhere else or call in old murderhobo buddies to deal with the problem and feed them another plot hook.

[virgil]

The guard will need to continue to exist for keeping the muggles in line, even if they aren't intended to be used control the murderhobo. In this case, their competency is restricted between two states

• Typical citizen
• Ruling class, likely the murderhobo in charge

So long as they fit between these two states, we're good. Personally, in 3.X terms, I'd prefer the ruling class to be at least 8 CR higher than the typical citizen and the typical guard 2 CR higher at most. Yes, this will require a pyramid scheme to work properly; thus the mayor has authority by eating the emperor's nephew and is only 2 CR higher than a guard.

[deaddmwalking]

Eating or being the emperor's nephew?

Because if you get to positions of power by eating the children of those more powerful than yourself, you're either in a fucked up world or Greek mythology.