[OSSR]Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (1st Edition)

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Ancient History
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[OSSR]Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (1st Edition)

Post by Ancient History »

Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay
A Grim World of Perilous Adventure

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FrankT:

Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay came out in 1986 and represented the snake getting tired of its own tail and moving up the chain to desert. Games Workshop had gotten their start distributing TSR's materials in the UK, and had leveraged their distribution monopoly of D&D into a commanding position of game ownership in general – by 1980 they had already started their takeover of game stores that is so familiar to British gamers today. They had a miniatures line that made figurines for D&D and Runequest, and in 1983 they had decided to cut themselves loose and release a battle game for people to actually play with their minis without needing a third party game. In 1986 they decided to make the jump from Chainmail to D&D just as TSR had done a decade earlier: they made their very own RPG.
AncientH:

This was the heady days of Warhammer Fantasy Battles 2nd edition (3rd edition would be released in '87), when the setting of the game was still very much ripped straight from Tolkien, but had started to really gel as its own thing. As such it is mostly familiar to anybody that has played Warhammer Fantasy, but there are still lots of little weird what-the-fucks that cropped up before the setting had finalized things like "no dwarf wizards" and "no half-orcs." It also ripped off as much as it thought it could get away with from the existing major RPGs of the day, which boiled down to D&D and RuneQuest.
FrankT:


The United Kingdom wasn't wholly isolated from role playing games in the 80s. While the import duties were fierce, it was possible to get a copy of whatever the latest RPG was from America. Bigger names like Dungeons & Dragons and Call of Cthulhu had UK editions printed up in Britain somewhere in order to avoid import duties. But between the difficulties of seeing physical copies of new materials and the lack of an internet, the United Kingdom in the eighties was fairly isolated from gaming culture as a whole. This allowed them to spend a lot of time reinventing the wheel, and also allowed them to set off on some truly different development paths. This book is 364 pages long, hardcover, with art or tables on almost every page. That just wasn't done in 1986. That became an industry standard for shovelware materials when printing and layout costs came down with digitization in the 21st century, but these guys were doing it all with photographic plates. It's actually pretty insane.

The book may superficially look like a book like Scion, but it's actually not. Scion was cobbled together digitally over a few months by a dozen hacks working on a deadline. But WFRP was designed by just five people and my fucking goodness it must have taken them years. There are literally more people assigned to paste up than there are to design and development. “Paste up” is a that used to happen where pieces of text and art were cut up and then pasted together into a collage and then photographed to make copy plates for printing. The amount of labor that went into this thing is staggering, and it didn't get a second edition for almost twenty years. The copy I'm looking at was printed in 1995, fully nine years after the initial print run – and it's basically unchanged. It was already an anachronism when it was written, and they kept printing it long after everyone involved should have known better.

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AncientH:

It is a thing of glory. It is also remarkable for how long it lasted, and with so few books. The first edition went through three publishers and lasted from 1986 until 2005, and for the most part was defined by its large multi-part campaigns more than any setting or expansion books - The Enemy Within being the major arc, and the second Doomstones campaign taking fifteen fucking years to see the last part published. For a while Games Workshop even tried to keep the setting in tune with their miniatures game with the two-part Realms of Chaos books. Hell, the main book had full page color insert plates just to pimp using the GW minis in your games!

And, something else that needs to be said - Games Workshop pursued a cohesive art approach years before that became industry standard. There was general agreement about what dwarf slayers and goblins were supposed to look like a long time before other games got their acts together, so even if something like 90% of the art in this hardbound phonebook looks like generic fantasy plonk these days, that 10% consistency means a lot.
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Also, they got Ian Miller to do some of the art. Not in this book of course, but other books. And that's just pure win.
FrankT:

More a child of the seventies than of the eighties, Warhammer was thoroughly indebted to the works of Tolkien and Moorcock. The races are Tolkien races, the teams are Moorcock teams. The art stylings look like the more fantasy-themed sketches from heavy metal magazines of the 70s. That's not an accident or anything, they actually used artists whose work included heavy metal magazines from the seventies. The only thing that's missing is giant boobs hanging out everywhere, which I think is a shame. This book would obviously be better with more boobs.

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Warhammer also inspired bands that based their music and covers on their art. Because why not?
AncientH:

The lack of boobs also points this out as a period product, actually. D&D wasn't above using tits to sell games to horny teenagers, but even those were few and far between. Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay was gaming in the era when Charles Stross was cribbing George R. R. Martin in the pages of White Dwarf, down at the record shop some guys were listening to this new record by a band called Megadeth, every week Judge Dredd delivered justice, you could probably still catch a second-run of Legend down at the discount theatre, and parents were just beginning to get bothered about Dungeons & Dragons. It was a great time to be alive.

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Little did he know, Tim Curry would never look this good again.

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This is mandatory when talking about Judge Dredd.

Nowadays we make fun about the grim darkness and dark grimness that came out of the late 80s, but this is really where it started. It needs to be said: I loved this book when I first found it. Part of me still does, and always will.

Introduction
FrankT:

The introductory fiction follows the beginning of the adventures of Sven. He has a Nordic name, because Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay is set in the middle of The Empire, which is the center of Human power. It is also Germanic flavored and themed off the Holy Roman Empire whenever they can remember to have it be “not British.” The book is written by sheltered British guys, so remembering to have things be “not British” is something they don't do all that often. Now, they don't go the full Neo-Nazi (that's for 40k!), but casual British racism is totally a thing. Recall, that at this point in time, Warhammer had a “Pygmy” race, and they looked like this:

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AncientH:

Remember that the guys writing all this didn't have the bazillion Tolkien knock-off trilogies that we have today; they barely had anything to steal from directly at all (okay, that's a lie, but I try not to bring up Lin Carter.)

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Anyway, I can't say this for certain, but I'm about 85% sure they started off with the Map. Because the Warhammer Map, in its various incarnations, has not changed much in thirty years. It looks a lot like our world with the absence of Australia, which I don't think anybody was really sad about, and it owes quite a lot to Tolkien's maps in the Lord of the Rings and Robert E. Howard's map of Hyboria.

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FrankT:

One of the things about Warhammer's “Old World” is that it couldn't decide how much of a fantasy world it actually was. When they remembered, they'd write in fantasy cultures and fantasy races and fantasy kingdoms, but everything outside Britania was considered “foreign enough” to be used unaltered. So Abrahim in the story is actually “an Arab.” He's not a Katapeshian who basically feels Arabic, he's literally and specifically described as being an Arab. Because apparently “Arabia” is a place on their fantasy map. They also had Norsemen who were described as such. Apparently they could put together a 364 page art-filled fanzine, but thinking of fantasy names for all the ethnicities they wanted to use was just a bridge too far.
AncientH:

Part of the reason was that this product was very close to its wargaming roots. Obscenely so, in some cases. We like to look at D&D 3rd edition as an excuse to sell miniatures, but in the case of WFRP they weren't even fucking trying to hide it. Tremendous attention was given to the combat rules, movement, the little internal maps look exactly like the wargaming hexes, it's amazing. And it is to be remembered that historical wargaming was still (and continues to be) a thing in the UK, and people were totally cool with playing characters in a faux-Europe that dealt with Norsemen and Arabians and Khitans and whatnot. It was complete in keeping with the Robert E. Howard approach to "fuck it, I like the sound of that, let's keep it."
FrankT:

Sven's party is made out of adventurers who were things like a fisherman and a university student. It comes off kind of weird in the story, but that's actually what the game expects you to play as. Being like a Wizard or a Warrior is just kind of beyond what this game things you can handle. Those sorts of “advanced classes” aren't even in the player's section of the book.
Sven's adventures are just beginning – and now you can begin your career as an adventurer in the
Old World, the setting for the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying Game. In this book you will find all the rules and information you need to play this exciting game of heroic magic and sword-play, in an easy-to-follow format. Read on, for this is where the adventure starts.
But remember: you don't actually get any magic, and scarcely get any sword-play. You fucking power gamer.
AncientH:

This was old-school roleplay, and let the dice fall where they may!

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Shit. Hand me another character sheet, will you?
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Post by Red_Rob »

The main thing I remember about WHFRP was the massive disconnect between the RPG and the tabletop game. The miniatures game was all about wacky, over the top units and characters, with Goblin Doom Divers and Dwarf Dragon Slayers, whereas the RPG wanted you to immerse yourself in gritty, low fantasy world where the taint of Chaos was omnipresent and scraping together enough coin for somewhere to sleep was more of a concern than anything else.

As a 14-year-old coming in from the wargame, it certainly took a bit of adjusting your expectations before you 'got' what the RPG was going for.
Simplified Tome Armor.

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Post by TheFlatline »

For some reason we could never quite get the grimdark vibe of WFRPG. Oh we got the setting and how it was all grimdark, but even as an adult it ended up being goofball ultraviolence. More like a fantasy version of Paranoia than GrimDark.

I mean, the troll slayer career "path" for a dwarf was basically finding bigger and badder enemies to try to die by until you finally picked a fight you didn't survive, and then you won. By dying.

Even in WFRPG 3rd it was hard *not* to go kind of slapstick at times. I mean, in one fight a PC managed to get an ear ripped off, have his hair burnt off his head, get a permanent gash/scar ripped across his face, and he lost a finger (thankfully it was his off hand).

In one fight.

So the running joke quickly because you could instantly tell how veteran someone was by how close they looked to their original species. If you could barely tell they were bipedal they were serious shit because they'd been in a lot of fights.

That being said, WFRPG was a terrible, terrible mess and I LOVED it.
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Post by silva »

TheFlatline wrote:I mean, the troll slayer career "path" for a dwarf was basically finding bigger and badder enemies to try to die by until you finally picked a fight you didn't survive, and then you won. By dying.
:shocked:
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Re: [OSSR]Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (1st Edition)

Post by Koumei »

Ancient History wrote: Anyway, I can't say this for certain, but I'm about 85% sure they started off with the Map. Because the Warhammer Map, in its various incarnations, has not changed much in thirty years. It looks a lot like our world with the absence of Australia, which I don't think anybody was really sad about,
Honestly, Warhams feels like such an ancient and integral part of Britain that if someone told me Warhammer Fantasy battle predated the British knowing about Australia, I might have believed them.

Red Rob: that's every fucking attempt at entering Roleplaying that GW have ever attempted until extremely recent times.
Warhammer Fantasy gave us: WFRP (as discussed in this thread, where your career path is shit-shoveler, aka "you don't have a mini to use for this") and Mordheim (see: a random rag-tag bunch of nobodies that need their own minis because they're too shitty to use in the regular wargame). And possibly some other Mordheim-like one where you had "gangs" of useless people but then randomly received a Chaos Spawn and won forever.
WH40K gave us: Necromunda (you get to play starving gang members. They are too weak to see use in 40k so they need their own minis. They get beaten up by the police, who are still too weak to see play unless you use them as "counts-as Storm Troopers with shotguns"), and Dark Heresy (again, no minis exist for your worthless asses). Rogue Trader gave people the fancy gear at least, but it wasn't until Deathwatch that people actually got to play as things they actually recognise from the GW store window.
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Post by TheFlatline »

silva wrote:
TheFlatline wrote:I mean, the troll slayer career "path" for a dwarf was basically finding bigger and badder enemies to try to die by until you finally picked a fight you didn't survive, and then you won. By dying.
:shocked:
Dwarves had this uber-honor thing going. Seriously, there's a character class for dwarves called Grudge Bearers, and their job is to go around and find shit that pisses Dwarves off and enter it into the Book of Grudges so that Dwarves can go kick some ass.

So when you're a disgraced dwarf, you regain your honor by going on a suicide mission. These dwarves are called Troll Slayers and they're basically looking for an honorable death. If they manage to not die and pick enough fights, they become giant slayers. And if they still can't con death into taking them in an extrodinarily bloody, violent, over the top manner, they become dragon slayers, which basically means they go kick a dragon in the balls and dare them to eat the dwarf.

This is not an exaggeration. Your character's entire motivation is to find a "good death".

Edit: So it's hard to take the game seriously when you can start as a Troll Slayer in a party with a rabbel rouser (actual beginning class), a herald, and a rat catcher (whose equipment is a torch, a pointy stick, some rags for clothes, and "a small, rather vicious terrier"). Here's these guys who might be lucky to know the pointy end of the stick teaming up with a dwarf who is totally cool with the idea of picking a fight that results in a total party wipe because that's his win condition.
Last edited by TheFlatline on Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Voss »

Red_Rob wrote:The main thing I remember about WHFRP was the massive disconnect between the RPG and the tabletop game. The miniatures game was all about wacky, over the top units and characters, with Goblin Doom Divers and Dwarf Dragon Slayers, whereas the RPG wanted you to immerse yourself in gritty, low fantasy world where the taint of Chaos was omnipresent and scraping together enough coin for somewhere to sleep was more of a concern than anything else.

As a 14-year-old coming in from the wargame, it certainly took a bit of adjusting your expectations before you 'got' what the RPG was going for.
The wacky and over the top is present, but you have to look for it in the main book (the sample adventure with the Beast of Nurgle hits it pretty well, largely because a virulently infectious, slimy tentacle monster with the personality of an overenthusiastic puppy is rarely not funny).

The first (and for a long time only) adventure modules (well, pamphlet, adventure, box set, then hard bound adventures), got really wacky and over the top real quick. Shadows over Bogenhofen is pretty serious, but Death of the Reik turned fantastically goofy while still grimdark as hell pretty quick. the crazy old baron who's been mutated into giant piano-playing cockroach who wants you to sort out things with his crazy cultist daughter and who mobs you with thousands of roaches if you try to pull bullshit is nothing short of ridiculous. Meanwhile other parts of the castle are pretty squick inducing (though admittedly several players found the roaches pretty f-ed up, particularly once the GM started describing them in and under their armor). By the time the adventures hit Something Rotten in Kislev, they're pure camp. The final module swings it back around to ultra-grimdark, however.

Its one of things Warhammer and GW has lost, I think. The grimdark is there, but, it isn't actually supposed to be taken seriously. Its a setup for the wild, crazy and ridiculously horrifying stuff that makes you laugh. The games are meant to be played with a beer and a laugh; unfortunately the current fanbase is largely ultra-serious, and the current crop of designers can't communicate their intent not to be serious. Some of it is because they take a radically different approach than the guys who came before them, but also because the GW corporation really dislikes communication with the consumer base.
Last edited by Voss on Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Maxus »

See, I like Warhammer 40k. Hell, I've been enjoying the Ciaphas Cain books. And the Space Marine video game? Awesome.

But it occupies the same headspace as Metal Gear Rising.

"I just charged 20 eight-foot-tall humanoids, arms with a pistol and a one-handed chainsaw and left behind a more fertile patch of ground and a lot of body parts" isn't that much further from "I just split four men in half, ripped organs out of two of them, and now I'm about to take on a giant mooing walking tank. And it doesn't stand a chance" for me.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

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Post by Ancient History »

Section 1:
AncientH:

The introduction has bog-standard stuff like "Using this Rulebook" and "What is a Roleplaying Game," and we're going to skip that crap. All you really need to know is that it uses the standard D&D dice (d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d20, and 2d10 -> d100) and modifiers (+1, x10, etc.)

The Player's Section

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FrankT:

The first section is called “The Player's Section” and it is followed immediately by “The Gamemaster.” That might seem like the player is only supposed to read until page 60 of the book, but actually much of the rest of the over three hundred pages of the book is stuff the player is also supposed to read. Combat rules and such. Nevertheless, I have met more than one person who made that mistake and thought that the players weren't supposed to read the latter 304 pages of the book, it's an unfortunate naming convention.

What the title is supposed to get across is that this is the section with character generation in it. Indeed, that's basically the entire section: you get 48 pages of character generation rules and then the chapter is over. But because of the way it was named, a considerable amount of people thought the players should be totally in the dark about absolutely everything other than the initial character generation rules. And that might sound insane to you, but this was a world where Gygax had the to-hit chart hidden in the AD&D DMG, and the characters you got out of chargen were such ridiculous neophytes that it seemed totally plausible to people that it really was supposed to be that opaque.
AncientH:

The WFRP characteristics are ripped almost directly and without alteration directly from the minis game (Weaponskill, Bow Skill, Strength, TOughness, Wounds, Attacks, etc.); with the addition of some attributes ripped from other games (Dexterity, Intelligence, Cool, Willpower, Fellowship), and some of them are percentile-based (0-100) and others...aren't. The whole book is actually chunked up a lot, by which I mean that almost everything is a couple paragraphs under a sub-header. I think this was done deliberately to make it easier to paste everything onto a page without overspill if it could be helped. Anyway, the sum to
To create their characters, each player will need a record sheet, some scrap paper and a pencil. A blank record sheet is given at the end of this section, which you can copy beforehand to make sure you have enough record sheets for all players.
The four races available at Man, Elf, Dwarf, and Halfling. Yes, this was after Tolkien had sued D&D about the whole hobbits thing, because by the Valar if anybody was going to make money off the little shits it would be him.
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FrankT:


Once you've selected your race, you roll dice to determine your stats. Most stats are on a 1-100 scale, and as a “man” you get a starting stat of 2d10+20 in those. This means that you're really pretty shitty at pretty much everything, having a less than 1 in 3 chance of succeeding on any task. If you're an Elf, you're better. You get an extra 10 to 30 points in almost every fucking stat and no real disadvantages to speak of. Bizarrely, the one thing you're no better than a man at is BS, which is the stat you use to shoot bows. So Elves rock the house at literally everything except hitting targets with arrows. It's weird. Despite the blatant unfairness and Tolkien cock smoking of the system, I can't honestly say it makes much difference. Even if you roll fantastically fantastic, you are still going to run more often than you stand your ground, and since you're also going to miss more often than you hit, I'm not sure that your character's cowardice is necessarily a bad thing. Rolling all your stats in order is horribly unfair, and is the kind of thing that would normally keep you from playing the kind of character you want, but since the range only goes from “terrible” to “even more terrible,” it doesn't actually count for much.

One place where that is not true is Strength and Toughness. There are a few stats that are from 1 to 6, and those tend to be amazingly important. A man or elf has a Strength or Toughness of d3+1, and characters have about 6 hit points. Strength is added to all damage they inflict, Toughness is subtracted from all incoming damage. So if you don't roll maximum on Strength and Toughness, you should just tear up the sheet and start over. All the other stats can start where they may and no one will give a shit. Having a non-maximum Toughness is simply a death sentence, and there's no real way to ever recover from that.

There's also one stat that isn't in the chart, which is your starting fate points. This is the number of times you can declare arbitrarily that you were only knocked unconscious instead of killed. Once they are gone they are gone, and no one gets that many. Men and Halflings might have as many as 4, Dwarves cap out at 3, and Elves only get 1 or 2. The game makes a big deal out of them, but if you were even attempting to run a long campaign it would be almost wholly meaningless. In any case, in a game where you have six hit points and swords do a d6 damage, they will be chewed through in a right hurry unless you max toughness and get yourself some fucking armor.
AncientH:

I should mention at this point that these are supposed to be Wood Elves (as opposed to High Elves, Dark Elves, or Sea Elves), and that by this point in the Warhammer Fantasy universe half-anythings pretty much didn't fucking exist. So no half-elves, no half-orcs, and halflings couldn't grow beards and weren't immune to mutation or specially created by the Old Ones as insatiable eating-and-fucking machines...yet. All that would really come into play and then get written out and then brought back later. Except half-elves. They mean it: no half-elves.

Anyway, after you have your race, your starting profile, and your age. That's 6d6 or 6d10 years for humans - if you roll less than 16, you roll again and add it on. So you could totally start as a 75-year old rat catcher if you max your age roll. You also write down your randomly determined height, which differs if you're male or female - female humans are 4" shorter than men on human, while in the more egalitarian other races, females are only 2" shorter than males.

Alignment is defined later, but it doesn't really fucking matter because everybody starts off Neutral except for Elves, who must be Good.

The example character for this chargen is Clem Shirestock, a 25-year old Human with a Neutral alignment.
FrankT:

You don't get to choose your career. You get to choose a career class. A career class is a group of careers, not a class in the D&D sense. The groups are Warrior, Rogue, Academic, and Ranger. Each has a requirement of one stat (or in the case of Academics: two stats) being 30 or higher. This means that it is entirely possible for your character to fail to meet the prerequisites for any choices, and then I guess you die in character generation or something.

Having chosen your career class, you now randomly determine how many starting skills you have, and then you randomly determine your starting skills off of charts. The charts involve rolling a d100 and comparing the result to your race and career class. The “skills” are not the same thing as things like “Weapon Skill,” which is one of your stats despite having the word “skill” in the actual name. They are more like Feats, things that you binarily have or do not have. They are not created remotely equal, and I'm pretty sure that they aren't supposed to be. You're supposed to “win” and “lose” this part of character generation. It is extremely possible, to the point of being very likely to roll up an Academic who doesn't have Read/Write. That might seem crippling, but it's actually good, because any starting skills you have that are duplicated on the bonus skills are just one less skill you ever get, and all the Academic careers give you Read/Write anyway except for Artisan's Apprentice and Druid.

Having dispensed with that piece of insanity, you now roll up your actual career. And here's where it gets strange...
AncientH:

Note: your age gives you a modifier to how many skills you start with. Elves, Dwarfs, and Halflings have to spend their first skills on some mandatory picks so all Halflings literally know Cook, all Dwarfs do know Mining and probably Smithing or Metallurgy, and all Elves have Excellent Vision and probably can sing/play an instrument/dance.

So, once you have the skills down you get the trappings for your class, which is basically starting gear. For example:
Rangers: wear a suit of good, but weather-worn and travel-stained clothing, including a tatty hat, hooded cloak and thick leather boots. A leather bag or backpack contains D3 blankets, cutlery, a tinderbox and small cooking pot. A flask of water hangs over one shoulder, whilst a hand weapon hangs from the belt - this is usually a sword, although the player may choose and axe instead if he wishes. A small knife is carried in a sheath. The character has a purse or money belt containing 3D6 Gold Crowns.

Rogues: begin the game wearing a suit of sturdy, if rather worn, clothing, including boots or shoes. The character carries a knife tucked into a belt or boot, and a well-secreted purse containing 3D6 Gold Crowns.
You don't chose your career. You roll D100 and consult the appropriate chart for your class, and then look at the results in the column for your race.

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FrankT:

It isn't just that the charts for character classes have clear winners and losers on them, although that is certainly true. Many of the careers on that list have no real reason to adventure at all. Very few of them have any abilities that would make them in any way suited to adventuring. Sure, there's a very small chance that you'll actually be a Troll Slayer or a Wizard's Apprentice and start in on the road to actually being a Wizard or Warrior, but mostly you end up as a fisherman or beggar and have no identifiable adventuring abilities at all. The only saving grace of shitty careers is that at least they are short. If for some reason you were playing a campaign, then when you collect all the bonuses a career can offer, you can jump into the next career.

There is a horribly convoluted career web, where each career tells you what careers you can enter from it, but not what careers you can enter it from. Also, some of the careers are advanced careers which are in the Game Master section for some reason. They aren't marked separately, so you may be confused as to why one of the career options you have isn't actually in the career list. But figuring out how to get from where you are to the career you actually want is senselessly difficult.
AncientH:

A career adds new skills, some new trappings, and an advance scheme - that is a series of bonuses to the character's profile that the character has to buy in order to move on to a new career. All player characters are a "cut above" and so get to pick one free advance from their career to apply at chargen. 6-7 more and they can advance to one of the exit careers!

This is an old chargen system, and buried in it are ideas you still see in RPGs today - not death during character generation so much, but the idea of a "focus" system which shows something of a character's lifepath, quick chargen, and quick additive advancement. Unfortunately, most of this is done via random tables with nil customizaton so that one of the earliest uses of computer-aided RPG gaming were character generators that could spit out a character in seconds; I'm fairly certain you could do speed-trials of making PCs with this system, and your only real choices are Race, Sex, and whether your Ranger had a sword or an axe.

After chargen rules proper is a list of the Basic Careers - these are the ones you can start out as, each with their own entry, listing their Advance Scheme, Skills, Trappings, and Career Exits - that is, the careers you can go into once you complete this one. The unfortunate thing about most of these is that they're wildly uneven, most of the career exits are other Basic Careers (instead of the cooler Advance Careers).

For example, the Alchemists' Apprentice had 3.5 skills (Brewing, Evaluate, Read/Write, and a 50% chance of Brewery) and only has 3 advances on their advance scheme. Agitator has 2 skills (Public Speaking and Read/Write) and 7 advances until they can move to another career (Charlatan, Demagogue, or Outlaw). That means that you're going to be an Agitator a lot longer than an Alchemists' Apprentice, and have far fewer skills during the period. What's more, remember that different race have different careers, so you can basically never be an Engineer if you're Human, Elf, or Halfling, because the Dwarfs have that shit locked up.

Now, theoretically a longer career path is actually a good thing, because the career advances are additive so you could potentially get quite powerful if you start out in the right shit early career - but the odds of surviving that long aren't good.

Some of the basic careers that are particularly notorious in this edition include Bawd, Beggar, Entertainer (which has so many special variants that they just give it an entire page), Grave Robber, Jailer ("a great many jailers are alcoholics"; 25% of Consume Alcohol skill), Labourer (75% chance of Consume Alcohol), Physician's Student (trappings include a pottery jar with D6 leeches), Rat Catcher (trappings include small but vicious dodge), Runner (as in messenger, Dwarfs only, trappings include "running shoes, specially made loose-fitting clothes, and headband), Scribe (Arcane Language - Magick? Really? Career exits are Forger, Lawyer, Merchant, and Scholar), Servant, and Student.

Now, you could make an argument for some of these guys as NPCs, but most players wouldn't consider these PC material - and I think that was the point. Life in Warhammer was nasty, brutish, and short, and nothing proved that faster than teaming up a Watchman, a Trapper, a Footpad, and an Exciseman and then asking them to do something more heroic than kill a barrel of booze. The ideal, obviously, was to have a natural progression where the PCs rise above their origins as "normal folk" toward being more skilled and notorious, but this was considerably more low-fantasy than most D&D players were used to at the time, and fuck even today pansy-ass players want their PCs to be able to start out not dying to a single hit or actually casting spells and owning weapons and armor. You lazy sons of bitches, we had to EARN that!

Anyway, among the chaff in the basic careers are a couple of not-sucky ones. You could totally start out as a Bodyguard, Bounty Hunter, Hunter, Marine, Mercenary, Noble, Outlaw, Pit Fighter, Troll Slayer, or Tunnel Fighter, which careers actually gave you something like combat skills and equipment plus some decent advanced career options. There's also something called a "Protagonist," which is well-named because next to Troll Slayer it's the most combat-oriented class, and screams "player character."

Magicians...ah, how to put this. Okay, there is a very slim chance you're actually going to be casting spells right off the bat. For that, you have to be a Wizard's Apprentice. There are some other mystical or magic-related basic careers - Alchemist's Apprentice, Druid, Initiate, Hypnotist, Seer - but none of them actually start off casting spells, and most of them are lucky to start off knowing Arcane Language - Magick. So odds are your first adventures in Warhammer are going to be less than magickal even if you can afford your own horse. Hilariously, the Wizard Apprentice's number of magic points has a typo, so humans and elves start out with 204 and dwarfs and halflings start out with 104.

Of course, even if you did get Alchemist's Apprentice, Druid, Initiate, or Wizard's Apprentice it was a bit of a gas, because their advance careers came in levels...but we'll get to that in a bit.

It remains to be said that while the laughable flaws in this system were obvious fairly early on - it didn't take much for Shadowrun and Vampire: the Masquerade to look cool and modern by comparison - this basic system persisted until 2005. And then 2nd edition used an updated version of this with fewer sucky classes, but sharing most of the key features.
FrankT:

The skills descriptions are needlessly convoluted.
If it should become necessary to generate skills randomly, the following method can be used:
  • Roll a d12 twice. Subtract 1 from the first roll, and multiply the result by 12. Then add the result of the second roll. This will give you a number from 1 to 144. If the result is more than 133, roll again. The following chart summarises the process:
Thing is, I can't think of a single reason you would want to generate a random skill that had an equal chance of being Spot Traps, Embezzling, Carpentry, Cast Spells, and Fish. Further, there are actually 134 skills and not 133. Also, some of the skills are “Speak Additional Language” and “Specialist Weapon” which are actually themselves long lists of skills.
AncientH:

It didn't help that further WFRP products added additional careers and skills, which because of the random chargen system means that they had to come with updated (and longer) tables, so even if you wanted to play a Runesmith from Dwarfs - Steel and Stone, your chances of doing so were fairly minuscule, at least until your second or third career, if you lasted that long.

As mentioned, Skills aren't...quite skills as we think of them. They were closer to D&D proficiencies in that you had them or you didn't, and they all had different mechanics, and some of them covered things like Night Vision or Very Strong you wouldn't consider skills. Most of them you couldn't gain twice, which came in handy because you didn't have to buy them again if you changed careers. 2nd edition changed the mechanics of how skills worked while basically keeping them tied to careers (for the most part).
FrankT:

The skills themselves are all over the map. Cooking gives you a +10% chance of noticing poison in food, which will never come up and 9 times out of 10 wouldn't work even if it did. On the other hand, Dodge Blow lets you make an Initiative test every round to take no damage from an attack that would otherwise hit you, which is fucking huge in a game that is this crazy lethal.
AncientH:

Indeed. Some notables here are Arcane Language - there are a whopping six of them (Magick, Old Slann, Arcane Dwarf, Arcane Elf, Druidic, and Demonic), of which maybe 3 see much of any use, the others of which are mainly flavor but would continue to bang around and get expanded upon in the Warhammer Fantasy 'verse up until the present day (yes, I was a fantasy language junkie as a tot, and yes I kept track). Secret Languages (Battle, Ranger, Thieves', Classical, and Guilder) were mostly dropped later on - Classical, by the way, is just pseudo-Latin.

A lot of these skills just have limited utility in an adventuring context, like Embezzeling, Fire Eating, Mining, and Numismatics. Others seem redundant - Magical Awareness and Magical Sense are different skills, as is Mime and Mimic, and Prepare Poisons and Manufacture Drugs.

Another thing a careful read-through will show is that they were already planning supplements with this book, notably the very well-regarded and batshit insane Realms of Sorcery, which went on to share its name with several other Warhammer magic supplements. This is a considerable piece of foresight on the part of the game designers, as they couldn't have any idea if this monster book would even sell.

This chapter ends with Clem Shirestock's character sheet.

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Someday, Clem.
Last edited by Ancient History on Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:32 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Voss »

The WFRP characteristics are ripped almost directly and without alteration directly from the minis game (Weaponskill, Bow Skill, Strength, TOughness, Wounds, Attacks, etc.); with the addition of some attributes ripped from other games (Dexterity, Intelligence, Cool, Willpower, Fellowship), and some of them are percentile-based (0-100) and others...aren't.
Corrections, here. Int, Cool and Willpower were part of the wargames at the time WFRP was written. They went away in later editions of Fantasy and 40k, however, as they weren't really all that necessary, and for most critters they were a similar value to their Leadership stat anyway, and really, having one stat for fear, one for resist magic and one for not running away when you aren't frightened wasn't that big of a deal. (Int was weird, largely only interacted with magic, except in 1st edition 40k, where it also limited which weapons you could use).

WS, BS, and the 'personality' stats were percentile in WFRP, but 1-10 in the wargames. The conversion is pretty obvious and fairly straightforward, WS (or whatever) 3--> 31. Coincidently, the average roll for a human.
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Post by Username17 »

Yeah, 1st edition Fantasy Battle units definitely had Int, Cool, and Willpower stats. These were eventually scrubbed from Fantasy Battle because in almost all instances they were meaningless. Why bother having a number that is your save versus Stupidity if your unit isn't subject to Stupidity in the first place? I cannot for the life of me remember whether 1st edition Fantasy Battle had "Dexterity" or not, but in a game that already has Bow Skill and Initiative, the reasoning for deleting it seems fairly sound.

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Post by Ancient History »

Y'know, my WFB experience starts around Herohammer, so my bad.
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Post by OgreBattle »

The consistent art style is what makes Warhammer what it is. They've had a profound influence on the style of fantasy around the world with their green orcs n' Elves with huge pauldrons.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

I'm not automatically against the idea of people playing barristers and street musicians and innkeepers in a world of high-stakes nuclear fantasy.

I am wondering, though, what exactly is supposed to be the typical campaign arc for your peasant-tier heroes. When I hear of WHFB its adherents keep telling me you gotta EARN that power, but what exactly are you supposed to be doing in the meantime? Could someone give me five fresh-out-of-CharGen iconic plots for WHFB characters that were ideated in the main book. Something like, oh:

[*] You're totally John Falstaff and you're trying to scrounge up an army of thieves and whores for some potential knighthoods or at least commissions.
[*] You're totally a mundane 'ninja' character and your job is to weasel your way into castle staff so that you can poison the Lord.
[*] You're Mother Courage-style war torn refugees who are taking a page out of her and Milo Minderbinder's books and are functioning as war profiteer hustlers.
[*] You're supposed to be a realistic representation of a draftee from an ignorant, undernourished peasant village with low life expectancy. The game is a rather blunt satire and tragedy about pre-Industrial Revolution war.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Re: [OSSR]Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (1st Edition)

Post by nockermensch »

Ancient History wrote:
Image
Also, they got Ian Miller to do some of the art. Not in this book of course, but other books. And that's just pure win.
Is that an Albrecht Dürer shout-out?
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Post by Voss »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:I'm not automatically against the idea of people playing barristers and street musicians and innkeepers in a world of high-stakes nuclear fantasy.

I am wondering, though, what exactly is supposed to be the typical campaign arc for your peasant-tier heroes. When I hear of WHFB its adherents keep telling me you gotta EARN that power, but what exactly are you supposed to be doing in the meantime? Could someone give me five fresh-out-of-CharGen iconic plots for WHFB characters that were ideated in the main book. Something like, oh:

[*] You're totally John Falstaff and you're trying to scrounge up an army of thieves and whores for some potential knighthoods or at least commissions.
[*] You're totally a mundane 'ninja' character and your job is to weasel your way into castle staff so that you can poison the Lord.
[*] You're Mother Courage-style war torn refugees who are taking a page out of her and Milo Minderbinder's books and are functioning as war profiteer hustlers.
[*] You're supposed to be a realistic representation of a draftee from an ignorant, undernourished peasant village with low life expectancy. The game is a rather blunt satire and tragedy about pre-Industrial Revolution war.
The conceit presented is that either
a) you're tired of your shitty life, and looking for a way get your hands on some coin
b) you've been sucked into some terrible plot against your will, and it involves local political figures that are more powerful than you, and no one is going to believe you. The first real adventure involves a big chunk of the town's hierarchy opening a demonic gate for unspeakable power, but the ratcatcher, the agitator, the laborer and the grave robber can't exactly take that to the town guard and expect to get anywhere.
c) suddenly skaven/orcs/beastmen. Or more likely, mutants, cultists or bandits, since orcs and beastmen rather overmatch starting characters.

the 'world of a high-stakes nuclear fantasy' often doesn't apply, however. The main campaign arc slowly works up to that at the end (over the course of 6 or so modules) but the big stakes early on is maybe losing a town or two.

But while tragedy does pop up, it is most often satire, when it bothers to take itself semi-seriously at all.
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Post by nockermensch »

TheFlatline wrote:Edit: So it's hard to take the game seriously when you can start as a Troll Slayer in a party with a rabbel rouser (actual beginning class), a herald, and a rat catcher (whose equipment is a torch, a pointy stick, some rags for clothes, and "a small, rather vicious terrier"). Here's these guys who might be lucky to know the pointy end of the stick teaming up with a dwarf who is totally cool with the idea of picking a fight that results in a total party wipe because that's his win condition.
It must be a british thing, because I can only parse the above group as something Pratchett would write about.
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Mord wrote:Chromatic Wolves are massively under-CRed. Its "Dood to stone" spell-like is a TPK waiting to happen if you run into it before anyone in the party has Dance of Sack or Shield of Farts.
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Post by Longes »

If you're an Elf, you're better. You get an extra 10 to 30 points in almost every fucking stat and no real disadvantages to speak of
Fucking elves. Their disadvantage is supposed to be roleplaying one, in that Empire is racist and hates elves. The problem with this is that GM either ignores it and elves have no disadvantage, or he enforces it and the whole group is at a loss for hanging out with an elf.
I've left a WFRPG 2nd edition game, because a player was characterising his elf as a total lower race hating douche, who is better at everything. And he was better at everything. He put my character into critical wounds with one unarmed attack (my character was a minor nobleman/wizard and elf offended him numerous times). I think he was going for a character arc where he learns about human society and shit, but I wasn't going to stand for it.
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Post by Username17 »

Ancient History and I were talking about it, and I think the whole career system would have been improved by doubling down on the mud. Career classes could be Slave, Itinerant, Serf, and Barbarian. And all starting careers could all be terrible. The key would be to have characters ramp up to adventuring classes right away. Going from prostitute to beguiler or vagabond to assassin - and not from rat catcher to grave robber.

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Post by Nath »

Warhammer character creation ranks among the craziest ever proposed. Obviously, most people houseruled it somehow, like rolling stats until you get a palatable set of numbers, and choosing career.

One of of my most stupid time ever in RPG was a game we played after our previous characters (created with such houserules, plus some XP under the belt) assumed control of a castle. We were now to play for a a couple of adventures new characters who were supposed to be the castle's servants and local townfolks (inspired by Ars Magica). We rolled everything.
What makes Warhammer randomness terrible is not that terrible outcome is likely, it's that it's likely only for most players. Thus I was to play a beggar, my brother had a grave robber, and my cousin a wizard apprentice. During the first fight, we came to realize that his Weapon Skill and Strength also made the apprentice a better warrior as well. After a single evening, we all agreed to shorten the experience and return to our old characters (it actually never happened, and we never played the first edition again).

The thing is, stats advance allowed by careers don't stack. That is, if the Thief career allowed for 1 advance in Bow Skill, and Assassin career allowed for 3 advance in Weapon Skill, you could only take 3 advances on top of your starting skill after accessing the latter. That means it required the best combination of race, roll and career to reach 90 or 100%. Also, it makes it almost impossible to catch up on a the 15 or 20 points gap between a good and a bad roll at chargen.

On career, the rules for changing are in the Gamemaster chapter. So AH and Frank ought to address it later. For 100 XP, you can switch any time for one of the "exit career" for your current career, or any starting career for your class, and for 200 XP, to any starting career for another class.
Only access to magical (clerics, druids and wizards) and mercenary captain careers require to have taken all the available advances and learned all the skills in the prerequisite starting career. So bad roll for a career accounts more or less for an "XP tax" to be paid to switch to a more interesting career. Practically, you get to play a single adventure as a random guy before switching to either mercenary, thief, hunter or wizard's apprentice.

The 2005 second edition introduced instead a requirement to acquire the equipment for career before starting it. Thus you needed a horse, a spear and an armor to become a knight, magical items and spelbooks to access high-level wizardry, a ship to be a sea captain, a warehouse for a merchant, and a guild for a guildmaster...

In spite of its flaws, I found Warhammer career system to have interesting consequences. Unlike D&D class system, players get to bother for the social situation of their character as they seek mere mechanical advances. YMMV, but I often enjoyed that a trip in town went beyond the tavern and item shops, as each character felt they were more than just road-tripping adventurers, and went to report to their guild, community or temple (though, on the other hand, religious careers may have that way a significant social advantage in the Empire over other people, in addition to having magical powers).
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Post by Longes »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:I'm not automatically against the idea of people playing barristers and street musicians and innkeepers in a world of high-stakes nuclear fantasy.

I am wondering, though, what exactly is supposed to be the typical campaign arc for your peasant-tier heroes. When I hear of WHFB its adherents keep telling me you gotta EARN that power, but what exactly are you supposed to be doing in the meantime? Could someone give me five fresh-out-of-CharGen iconic plots for WHFB characters that were ideated in the main book. Something like, oh:

[*] You're totally John Falstaff and you're trying to scrounge up an army of thieves and whores for some potential knighthoods or at least commissions.
[*] You're totally a mundane 'ninja' character and your job is to weasel your way into castle staff so that you can poison the Lord.
[*] You're Mother Courage-style war torn refugees who are taking a page out of her and Milo Minderbinder's books and are functioning as war profiteer hustlers.
[*] You're supposed to be a realistic representation of a draftee from an ignorant, undernourished peasant village with low life expectancy. The game is a rather blunt satire and tragedy about pre-Industrial Revolution war.
The basic premise of WFRPG is that you are all adventurers, looking for an adventure. Enemy Within starts with your party going the capital because you saw "Hiring adventurers for a quest" sign.
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Post by Longes »

FrankTrollman wrote:Ancient History and I were talking about it, and I think the whole career system would have been improved by doubling down on the mud. Career classes could be Slave, Itinerant, Serf, and Barbarian. And all starting careers could all be terrible. The key would be to have characters ramp up to adventuring classes right away. Going from prostitute to beguiler or vagabond to assassin - and not from rat catcher to grave robber.

-Username17
I'm only familiar with 2nd edition, so bear with me. The huge problem of the career system was a large disparsity between the careers. Rat catcher starts with 1d10 rats, noble starts with 4d10 jewelry, 2d10 coins, rapier and a noble status. The worst offender, as far as I can remember, is a fieldwarden, who starts with plate armor, horse and a pistol.

Wizard trappings requirements are absolutely nuts! Wizard needs 3000 gold worth of grimoires (10 books)!
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Post by JigokuBosatsu »

Ian Miller has always cited Durer as a big influence, and yes, he is full of win. The two Realms of Chaos books are basically Ian Miller coffee table books.

Fun trivia: If you were at all familiar with Miller's work when you saw the LotR films, then you probably noticed how most of the orc soldiers seemed to have wandered right out of a Miller illustration. I attempted to have author/editor Jeff Vandermeer ask Miller about this, as they are friends. After a while he told me he could not get an answer, and implied that he barely survived the process. My guess is that Miller must have noticed it as well.

Also, don't forget the "official" WH40K album, which actually got me into WH rather than the other way 'round:
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JigokuBosatsu wrote:so a regular glass armonica?
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Post by TheFlatline »

I'll pipe in on the classes.

3rd edition doubles down again on character classes. I have most of the expansions and I think that totals like 300 character classes. 50 or 60 of which are probably advanced careers.

And yes, in 3rd ed, there's shit like slave/ex slave. Dunno about prostitute though.

The deck for beginning characters in 3rd is seriously like 80 classes. And they're still completely unbalanced. In our first game we had an Agitator, a fucking elven Wardancer (who had no advanced careers or even a career path to follow, after wardancer that's it, and it's one of the most complicated classes in the game, and is a fucking BEGINNER class), an apprentice cleric, and a coachman whose main claim to fame was that he could use the blunderbuss.

It sort of worked in 3rd though because there are a lot of support skills that you can take to buff and manipulate conflicts, so even the Agitator was contributing (mostly by helping his party out but still...). But the combat still mostly consisted of the party frantically juggling status ailments while the wardancer ran around killing everything.
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Post by TheFlatline »

nockermensch wrote:
TheFlatline wrote:Edit: So it's hard to take the game seriously when you can start as a Troll Slayer in a party with a rabbel rouser (actual beginning class), a herald, and a rat catcher (whose equipment is a torch, a pointy stick, some rags for clothes, and "a small, rather vicious terrier"). Here's these guys who might be lucky to know the pointy end of the stick teaming up with a dwarf who is totally cool with the idea of picking a fight that results in a total party wipe because that's his win condition.
It must be a british thing, because I can only parse the above group as something Pratchett would write about.
Possibly. It gets a chuckle out of me every time. Just having a character whose sole motivation is finding the worst fucking fight imaginable and charging headlong into it to die and partying that character with anyone with any survival instinct is hilarious to me.
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