LAW= Americans in ties CHAOS= Spainiards that take siestas

[OgreBattle]

I've been thinking about the meaning of LAW vs CHAOS and... a lot of the arguments I've seen sound exactly like the arguments I hear about the differnece between "American vs European" society where it gets into stuff like the place of the individual in society, freedoms and whatever.

Alignment is still a dumb idea the more you talk about it, but that seems to be a definition most people can agree on.

So if you are LAWFUL, just think "What would I do if I was an American on wallstreet?"

And if you are CHAOTIC think "What would I do if I was from Spain?"

[Prak]

That's just the usual Law=Conformity/Chaos=Individualism. Nothing new.

[Surgo]

Don't the Japanese samurai people on TV usually end up dying? Doesn't sound like a good structure for a D&D game.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Please change the title to be less provocative and retarded.

[OgreBattle]

Don't the Japanese samurai people on TV usually end up dying? Doesn't sound like a good structure for a D&D game.

Dungeons & Dying is the name of the game.

[hogarth]

I prefer to think of Lawful as "consistent" and Chaotic as "inconsistent". So if everyone in the country takes a siesta at noon every day and businesses close down, etc., that would be more Lawful than Chaotic. But if people were prone to leave work without notice to take a nap on a whim, that would be more Chaotic than Lawful.

[codeGlaze]

I prefer to think of Lawful as "consistent" and Chaotic as "inconsistent". So if everyone in the country takes a siesta at noon every day and businesses close down, etc., that would be more Lawful than Chaotic. But if people were prone to leave work without notice to take a nap on a whim, that would be more Chaotic than Lawful.

This.

[Scrivener]

Except that solves none of the issues of alignment.

Sure having moderately racist stereotypes is fun, but the alignments still mean nothing.

If you look at the actions of a character lawful evil and chaotic good look identical.

Example: lawful evil banker, is trying to build a thug empire and take over the world, so he cheats on his taxes, using a technicality that is against the spirit of the law yet adheres to the word of the law, and gives money to his band of thugs to buy supplies.

Chaotic good Robin Hood shoots and kills a deer on the king's land, since he shot from off the land it is technically legal, but against the spirit of the law, he gives the meat to his merry men.

Both use a technicality to ignore laws they don't want to follow, both gave the fruits if their labor away for personal reasons. From a behavior standpoint they did the same actions. From a motivation standpoint, they are damn close, they both used a technicality to help further their cause of overthrowing the government and establishing one more to their liking.

Also tell me one action a CG character would take that a NG would not, or vice versa.

If you want alignments to have game effects use supernatural alignments (outsiders of [type], clerics of [type] god, dragons and undead should be [type]), heck remove the [type] and let protection from evil/law/chaos/good become protection. (On a side note what magic circle do you use if you summon a true neutral outsider?)

Trying to make alignment make sense for player actions is like trying to dictate character build choices by what mini you use.

[fectin]

Here's a thing I wrote to screw with alignments. I declared that Darkiron dwarves are lawful good, but you can really pick any alignment from this description:
http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=300699#300699

If you believe that you have a clear division between alignments which is consistent with the PHB descriptions, please tell me where they fall and why.

edit:typo

[Josh_Kablack]

The premise of Alignment == Cultural Stereotypes get more hilariously racist when you consider the ramifications of various alignment-based spells.

Protection vs Irish
Magic Circle against Canadians, eh?
Italian Blight
Word of Really Cheesing Off Texans
Aura of Britishness

and so on

[Prak]

Detect Krauts

[fectin]

And all the various flavors of blasphemy...

[Prak]

Wait, considering how conformity based Nazism was, that means Castigate is basically the caster standing there, reciting Mein Kampf while gesticulating energetically...

That's an even better mental image than my previous one of the cleric shouting the Ten Commandments as people writhe in pain.

[OgreBattle]

Smite Protestants
Helm of opposite demonination
"Once babtized, the character's alignment is changed to Catholic

If you believe that you have a clear division between alignments which is consistent with the PHB descriptions, please tell me where they fall and why.

LAW, CHAOS, GOOD, EVIL is replaced with...
DAPPER, SCRUFFY, GENTLEMAN, HOOLIGAN

If you are Dapper, you are not Scruffy
If you are a Gentleman, you are not a Hooligan

[Scrivener]

If you believe that you have a clear division between alignments which is consistent with the PHB descriptions, please tell me where they fall and why.

LAW, CHAOS, GOOD, EVIL is replaced with...
DAPPER, SCRUFFY, GENTLEMAN, HOOLIGAN

If you are Dapper, you are not Scruffy
If you are a Gentleman, you are not a Hooligan

So you can't have a scruffy monk? Or a scruffy paladin? And running around shouting "Oi!" after a soccer game makes you hate hollowed ground?

I rather like the spread, and it think it's a much better axis, but it doesn't fit the PHB. Honestly ruling all paladins and monks must be gentlemen makes a heck of a lot more sense than the current descriptions. I also like how it is quite possible to be an unkind or evil gentleman.

[Prak]

A gentleman could easily be a hooligan under the right circumstances, and then go right back to being a gentleman.

[OgreBattle]

I also like how it is quite possible to be an unkind or evil gentleman.

Yeah, being a Gentleman has nothing to do with Good or Evil

So you can't have a scruffy monk? Or a scruffy paladin? And running around shouting "Oi!" after a soccer game makes you hate hollowed ground?

Alignment restrictions for monks is one of the reasons I don't like D&D monks. Kung fu movies are often filled with the scruffiest, most hooligan prone martial artists around sharing screentime with ultra gentlemanly dudes who keep their temples in top dapper shape, they run the whole range of alignments.

[TheFlatline]

I've been thinking about the meaning of LAW vs CHAOS and... a lot of the arguments I've seen sound exactly like the arguments I hear about the differnece between "American vs European" society where it gets into stuff like the place of the individual in society, freedoms and whatever.

Alignment is still a dumb idea the more you talk about it, but that seems to be a definition most people can agree on.

So if you are LAWFUL, just think "What would I do if I was an American on wallstreet?"

And if you are CHAOTIC think "What would I do if I was from Spain?"

This post has kicked around in my head for a while and it makes me kind of stabby actually.

Because when I think "what would a banker on wall street do?" I reply to myself "Fuck everyone over in any way they possibly can making as much money as they can and fuck who they harm so long as they get away with it and get the motherfucking MONEY." Citation: The last 30 years of Wall Street, including the global economic collapse of 2008 caused by unregulated bankers fucking over everyone as fast as they could bend people over.

I mean, the whole point of American capitalism is about the individual bucking the rest of society and being exceptional.

If that's "lawful" in a D&D sense I'll eat my hat.

Meanwhile, what would Spain do? Join an continental economic union to establish baseline regulations and buffers encouraging increased trade leverage against countries *like* the US, and socialize certain parts of their economic and social systems to provide a greater safety net during a time of economic uncertainty.

Which in Fox News Speak is basically SOCIALISM, which sounds kind of... I dunno... "lawful" in D&D speak.

So I give points for being what seems like 180 degrees ass-backwards.

[OgreBattle]

So I give points for being what seems like 180 degrees ass-backwards.

The original was "LAW= honorable Japanese, CHAOS= Freedom loving Americans", but it offended phonelobster so I switched it.

[TiaC]

However, it was massively more accurate. The east/west community/individual divide is a good way of talking about Law/Chaos.

Rule Utilitarianism is Lawful good, Act Utilitarianism is Chaotic Good.

[hyzmarca]

Law = A2M No
Chaos = A2M Okay

This post has kicked around in my head for a while and it makes me kind of stabby actually.

Because when I think "what would a banker on wall street do?" I reply to myself "Fuck everyone over in any way they possibly can making as much money as they can and fuck who they harm so long as they get away with it and get the motherfucking MONEY." Citation: The last 30 years of Wall Street, including the global economic collapse of 2008 caused by unregulated bankers fucking over everyone as fast as they could bend people over.

I mean, the whole point of American capitalism is about the individual bucking the rest of society and being exceptional.

If that's "lawful" in a D&D sense I'll eat my hat.

.
Oh no, That's totally Lawful Evil. Exploit the system to screw over everyone else. The other flavor of Lawful Evil, the Tyrant, is the one where you kill everyone who fails refuses to obey you. Both might seem somewhat less lawful, but in context your loyalty and obedience has absolutely no bearing on whether or not a Chaotic Evil leader will kill you and he doesn't need a system to screw you over.

[Longes]

The other flavor of Lawful Evil, the Tyrant, is the one where you kill everyone who fails refuses to obey you.

And then Stalin and King Logain (Fable 3) came by, and muddied the issue even more.

[Redshirt]

If we're honestly going to try and put Stalin somewhere on the continuum, he should slot pretty comfortably into chaotic evil. Obeying the rules in Stalinist Russia did not protect you, nor did being near the top of the hierarchy, nor did being a longtime party loyalist.

[TheFlatline]

Law = A2M No
Chaos = A2M Okay

This post has kicked around in my head for a while and it makes me kind of stabby actually.

Because when I think "what would a banker on wall street do?" I reply to myself "Fuck everyone over in any way they possibly can making as much money as they can and fuck who they harm so long as they get away with it and get the motherfucking MONEY." Citation: The last 30 years of Wall Street, including the global economic collapse of 2008 caused by unregulated bankers fucking over everyone as fast as they could bend people over.

I mean, the whole point of American capitalism is about the individual bucking the rest of society and being exceptional.

If that's "lawful" in a D&D sense I'll eat my hat.

.
Oh no, That's totally Lawful Evil. Exploit the system to screw over everyone else. The other flavor of Lawful Evil, the Tyrant, is the one where you kill everyone who fails refuses to obey you. Both might seem somewhat less lawful, but in context your loyalty and obedience has absolutely no bearing on whether or not a Chaotic Evil leader will kill you and he doesn't need a system to screw you over.

Actually it was breaking all kinds of laws and committing fraud on an epic scale.

But hey if that's lawful it just shows that the entire f*cking alignment system is only as good as the people using it.

[TheFlatline]

So I give points for being what seems like 180 degrees ass-backwards.

The original was "LAW= honorable Japanese, CHAOS= Freedom loving Americans", but it offended phonelobster so I switched it.

I wouldn't phrase it that way, but "small part of something bigger" vs "individual bucking the system by being exceptional" is not a bad comparison of law vs chaos and I'm okay with that.