So, what IS the "right" way to do ..... the undesirable?

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:32 am

(for the record: this is simply a matter of intellectual curiosity for me; as I cannot make heads or tails of anything resembling a quantifiable conclusion)

I happen to be reading the latest post over on Deeper in the Game, which referenced THIS article, which further referenced this article .....

..... and one thing that I noticed was that with all the talk of the "wrong" ways to approach/implement the topic of rape, there was absolutely no talk of a "right" way.
It was even explicitly mentioned several times (especially in the comments) that no one was advocating that the entire topic be completely squashed -- simply not done the "wrong" ways. Which necessarily implies that there are some "right" ways to the topic; but nobody anywhere would talk about what that would look like.

So, help me out -- WTF?

AndreiChekov · Post by **AndreiChekov** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:01 am

I don't think that there is actually a "right" way to put something that bad into a medium that people are supposed to be enjoying. The closest I've come across that is in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series, where it is mentioned, but never happens.

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:06 am

AndreiChekov wrote:I don't think that there is actually a "right" way to put something that bad into a medium that people are supposed to be enjoying. The closest I've come across that is in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series, where it is mentioned, but never happens.

I would agree with the tWoT assessment; however, by the standards given in those articles, that still falls in to the realm of either "hardcore survivor" or "vagina trauma".

I only come to the minds here because nobody could actually be pinned down (no pun intended) to actually articulate the "right" ways.

More to the point -- can it be implemented in such a way that doesn't fall in to the "Big 3" cliches?

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:18 am

As a quick and generalizable approximation, I would set it up, then cut time forward, and let the player determine what happened to their character if they're so inclined.
If you're playing with Atmo or Koumei, different answers may be appropriate instead.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:26 am

Could you tl:dr the points of those three articles? If the question is how to get rape into a communal game without offending anyone the answer is play with people who are not offended by rape. I have heard of those groups existing particularly in WoD games that sound horrifying.

It's not a weird or singular issue, the Tome of Fiends addresses the issue in broad form. Rape or torture or graphic violence are all disturbing and if you know your audience well you can tittilate them with by exposing them to the level disturbing content that peaks into those areas and stops before it would become genuinely disturbing. So there's no special way that you include rape or tortue that magically won't offend anyone but by knowing your audience well you can judge the amount that you could put in your game between the poles of "None" and "A terrifying amount".

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:37 am

I did a Greek Gods-style LARP where there were rules for both violent conflict and also competitive sex (to seduce favors out of people and such). Rape being such a big part of the genre, I felt I had to at least nod at it, but I included it in violence. One of the outcomes a fight's winner could choose was to 'humiliate' the loser, which had the mechanical effect of the winner stealing some divine power currency from the loser. I told the players that it could just as well mean an extended noogie, but if they were a rapey kind of deity, that was the option they should choose, and please refrain from details. It worked well, but it was a pretty mature crowd to begin with.

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:53 am

deanruel87 wrote:Could you tl:dr the points of those three articles?

Yeah -- I probably should have done that to begin with (sorry):
tl;dr:
Basically, it's a couple of diatribes about the "Big 3" cliches of rape implementation in to RPGs, comics, movies, etc.; and all 3 are a part of character development:
1) demonstration of Eeeeeevil
2) hardcore survivor/badass woman
3) "vagina trauma", i.e., woman that is emotionally/psychologically fragile/broken
The one author was also ranting against "rape as setting".

the consensus was that these cliches are bad, and should be avoided.
Then listed a giant pile of examples of how geek culture is loaded with this shit. Demands that if rape is going to be included, then you must avoid the "Big 3" (which, as it turns out, is actually the "Big 4").

I guess my "WTF" is: what else is there? You don't actually include stuff like that unless as a artistic device (cliched or not); and I can't think of anything that doesn't/wouldn't fall in to those 4 things.

(point of order -- if sex is ever alluded to at tables I personally ever sit at, it is always off-screen, regardless of the context)

Sakuya Izayoi · Post by **Sakuya Izayoi** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:27 am

My approach is "don't", at least it is after my disastrous Black Crusade campaign, I've stopped running games where the players can be bad guys. If it's a grimdark setting, you can, at worst, consensually rip bodices.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:34 am

if rape is going to be included, then you must avoid the "Big 3"

Nah that sounds like bullshit. If someone tries to tell you the magic correct way to put rape in RPG's then they're retarded. There's less than no reason to think someone creating a really inventive and non cliche'd rape scene would be less bothersome than mentioning that the Warlord Wrongbad is a monster who raids villages to gather men as slaves and women as playthings.

If someone tries to tell you the one true way art should be done then that person is ignorant. I happen to believe that there is too much allusion to rape in modern American cinema which makes me uncomfortable sometimes but I recognize that that is my opinion and that I represent exactly one man's tastes in art. Someone who forgets that might write about just what kind of rape you "must avoid" to be good art and those people can blow me all day. Tale of Two cities has a rape in it which falls neatly into the first cliche listed and I don't care because I'll give the best piece of western literature more credit than some blog posters on deciding what is allowed to be in a good story.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:46 am

Deanruel87 has it right. You can't do the undesirable in a desirable manner. That sounds like a case for the tautology club because it is a case for the tautology club. When it comes to sex and taboo artistic expression you can have total spontaneity or assurances that no lines will be crossed but not both. Personally, I'd rather talk shit out first and risk spoiling the possibility of happy surprises. Yeah, it potentially makes things less exciting to lay your cards on the table before the action starts but really I think that's a small price to pay for avoiding the roleplaying equivalent of these two NSFW scenarios.

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:27 am

So .... they're just bitching to hear themselves bitch? Some need to feel morally superior?
'cause that's may take.

The way I see it, "tried and true" literary devices are a thing; and they serve a purpose. There are a metric fucktonne of cliches that bore me to tears and I hope that I never have to see them again -- but I don't pretend some high-minded moral superiority, and then try to say "yeah, there are 'right' ways to do this, but fuck you if I can be bothered to say what they are".

It also occurs to me that there is this increasing trend where people go out of their way to be offended. It just So Fucking Cool™ to be in a perpetual state of moral outrage about something, without having any real, quantifiable solutions/alternatives.

Like I said, I thought that there might have been something else that I was missing; and, thus, didn't want to be walking around in ignorance being "that guy".

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:57 am

Jesus, it's like you turned in front of That Guy before my very eyes.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:06 am

@WTF.

OK, so speaking English, that's a sign you're from a puritanical culture that loved murdering people for really weaksauce reasons, and hated anyone talking about sex. To some extent because Queen Elizabeth I happened. Anyway, the most offensive words in your culture include things like [EDITED], because obviously even hearing about one will destroy your mind. It's a middle-engish word referring to the female genitals, BTW.

Now, forcing such rudeness on someone by talking about forcing sex on their character, that's like triple rude. Rude as. Ruder than a rude thing. Total pillow talk.

Unlike the repeated attempts to murder their character. That's just the game, eh what. Stabbity stab stab stab. As long as it's with a knife.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:58 am

wotmaniac wrote:The way I see it, "tried and true" literary devices are a thing; and they serve a purpose.

Oh do tell us all in detail the "tried and true" purpose that is served in your games when you arrange to have your players personal characters raped without the player's advance consent.

Because that's the only way this isn't a form of actual sexual assault in the actual real world. By getting consent in advance.

But do tell us how it is an "important literary device" to rape the character of the only female player at the table to "demonstrate how the bad guy is evil" or to "give her a chance to be bad ass" or to add "traumatic character". Do tell us how artistic license is the only justification you think you need when doing this at the table.

Do tell us all about it your artistic license to rape as you see fit.

I'm sure you will come off looking really "badass".

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:30 am

Phonelobster makes a strawman; News at 11.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:38 am

I think we covered the basics of this in the violation thread; rape as a story element in gaming is fine, with a level of detail suited to the maturity and background of your group - however, having player characters get raped is generally frowned upon, and player-on-player rape is just a poor dynamic at the table. I'm not saying you could never use it - I'm sure there's a fucked up FATAL homebrew somewhere out there where that's a thing - but it's not going to be appropriate in the vast majority of games.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:44 pm

After having had a good night's sleep my last post hits me as slightly unfair thanks to the power of hindsight. I just get kind of annoyed when people get to fretting about real outrage vs. manufactured outrage or whatever because all too often it's not really a very functional part of the conversation. People routinely get cases of the feels that I can't relate to and in any case it's entirely possible to be right about something but also emotionally distanced from the topic. More often than not it's a pointless exercise.

GâtFromKI · Post by **GâtFromKI** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:20 pm

wotmaniac wrote:Basically, it's a couple of diatribes about the "Big 3" cliches of rape implementation in to RPGs, comics, movies, etc.; and all 3 are a part of character development:
1) demonstration of Eeeeeevil
2) hardcore survivor/badass woman
3) "vagina trauma", i.e., woman that is emotionally/psychologically fragile/broken
The one author was also ranting against "rape as setting".

the consensus was that these cliches are bad, and should be avoided.
Then listed a giant pile of examples of how geek culture is loaded with this shit. Demands that if rape is going to be included, then you must avoid the "Big 3" (which, as it turns out, is actually the "Big 4").

I guess my "WTF" is: what else is there? You don't actually include stuff like that unless as a artistic device (cliched or not); and I can't think of anything that doesn't/wouldn't fall in to those 4 things.

You can handle it the same way murder is handled in most video games, and in some RPG like D&D.

In video game, the only way to interact with the world is by killing dudes and destroying stuff. And the immense majority of male characters are mooks whose only purpose is being killed by the protagonist.

And nobody cares.

So, nobody should care if in your game, the only purpose of female is to be raped, as long as it isn't a demonstration of Evil and doesn't lead to any character development. It's better if the vast majority of raped females are faceless.

In order to fight sexism, your game should also include a lot of female-killing and a lot of male-raping. And it shall be called "FATAL".

Scrivener · Post by **Scrivener** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:52 pm

At the risk of being labeled "that rape guy," I've actually played in a few games with rape.

It's easy to know exactly how rape goes bad. Any time a PC is raped it is bad. It doesn't matter who is doing it nor how it is handled, always bad and a bad idea. I was in a D&D game where the party had to hang out with a white dragon for a week (he was our boss), the DM decided as a way of moving the plot forward that this weird mutated white dragon effectively had sex with everything in its lair constantly. It was the vaguest least invasive form of rape ever. No one was touched or violated. The entire party said "you know what, I'm done," afterwards. So even being delicate and non-graphic rape is a game ender.

On the other hand I ran a WoD campaign where a main villain was based off of Mr. Gone from the Maxx. So a bad guy was raping people. This was fine, the PCs hated the heck out of him, I didn't attack PCs but their herd and retinue were attacked. Everyone hated the guy, which was good, no one was squicked out, which was good.

So if it's in there make it serve a purpose (how do you get vampires to hate someone? Make them despicable I a different way)
Don't make it personal (auto losing a fight is no fun, auto losing sex is no fun)
And don't get all descriptive (you look like a fetishist if you do)

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:02 pm

I had a session a couple of months ago, where the other players arranged a gang rape of the character I was playing.
And that session in fact, let me feeling terrible, depressed and generally awful for about a month in real life after the session ended.

Basically, different people have different tolerances and when dealing with real sensitive topics like that, you really have to know the people you're playing with. And just how far you can go.
And even then, you're probably better off just avoiding it.

Redshirt · Post by **Redshirt** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:12 pm

ishy wrote:I had a session a couple of months ago, where the other players arranged a gang rape of the character I was playing.
And that session in fact, let me feeling terrible, depressed and generally awful for about a month in real life after the session ended.

What the ever loving fuck. Why? Are you still playing with these people?

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:17 pm

STRONGLY AGREE

Cyberzombie · Post by **Cyberzombie** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:48 pm

I think the only real rule to remember is never to rape the PCs, unless you've totally checked it out with them beforehand, and even then... you need to be very careful with it.

Finding raped NPCs is fine though, I think it's a great way to set up a villain as being evil. D&D players tend to be desensitized to mass murder, so having something more personal like rape is a good way to freshen up the evil in your game.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:48 pm

My two wooden nickels: If the character isn't okay with it, but the Player is, it's probably not going to destroy your game.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:37 pm

You can play it for laughs, like male characters get forced upon by monstrous females.

Or the charming bard is expecting to meet the princess in her bedroom but when he slips through the window, waiting inside is a big gay orc with improved grapple. Ideally the bard has a way of fending off the orc or other PC's can barge in because you shouldn't actually full-on penetrate a PC against the player's will.

Now about about PC's using the accusation of rape against NPC's? Like a towns guard tackles a thief but then you activate your hat of disguise to make yourself look like a maiden being accousted by a disgusting pig of a man.