D&D 5e is now over 5 years old, has anything changed?

[ColorBlindNinja61]

5e has existed now for 5 years and still has a paltry amount of content.

Has the game gotten worse? Has it gotten better?

Have there been any major nerfs (I know Contagion got nerfed) or buffs?

Is the Artificer worth using? (One of my players told me 5e's Artificer is broken, I'm not sure I believe it.)

From what I can tell, you still can win 5e forever with Animate Dead and Glyph of Warding. Necromancer Wizards are king, followed by Clerics & Bards, and non-magical martials suck ass.

And going forward, how much longer will 5e be around? I suspect 5e will continue hang around long after it should have been killed off, I don't see them making a 6e any time soon.

Thoughts?

[Whatever]

The game is functionally unchanged from release.

[ColorBlindNinja61]

The game is functionally unchanged from release.

That answer does not surprise me in the least. Perhaps a slight feeling of disappointment, but not surprise.

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

They don't give a fuck about 5e and neither do you.

[ColorBlindNinja61]

They don't give a fuck about 5e and neither do you.

I do DM 5e games from time to time, which is the main reason I created this thread in the first place.

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

But do you really give a fuck?

[ColorBlindNinja61]

But do you really give a fuck?

Enough of a fuck to make this thread.

[Grek]

Artificer is better than most mundane classes and is a good 1 level dip for a Wizard, as it gives you the ability to run around in medium armour and a shield (while still casting spells), progresses your casting normally and gives you proficiency with Thieves Tools, Perception and Con saves where a Wizard wouldn't normally get any of that. There is also a high level stupid combo involving animated objects and aid another actions which you will never actually use in practice.

[ColorBlindNinja61]

Artificer is better than most mundane classes and is a good 1 level dip for a Wizard, as it gives you the ability to run around in medium armour and a shield (while still casting spells), progresses your casting normally and gives you proficiency with Thieves Tools, Perception and Con saves where a Wizard wouldn't normally get any of that. There is also a high level stupid combo involving animated objects and aid another actions which you will never actually use in practice.

Good to know. That said, being stronger than the mundane classes isn't saying much.

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

Enough of a fuck to make this thread.

Way to ruin my quip.

[Grek]

Good to know. That said, being stronger than the mundane classes isn't saying much.

If you're not allowing animate dead (or are allowing hirelings), the mundane classes aren't half bad. Stun Monks, cavalry Rogue and polearm Battlemasters are surprisingly not-shit in 5e, given what you'd expect from 3.5's CoDzilla antics.

For those who are unfamiliar with the concept of a cavalry rogue, 5e sneak attack rules no longer require flat-footed or flanking. Instead, they require advantage or that a second enemy of the creature you're sneak attacking be adjacent to the target. If a rogue is attacking from horseback, there will be another enemy (the horse) adjacent when the rogue makes its attack. Thus, all mounted attacks by a rogue are sneak attacks. Horses can also use their turn to take the Disengage action (without it costing the rogue anything), so you can just repeated ride-by attack people to death if their ranged attacks aren't sneak-attack good (after Uncanny dodge, which halves their damage) and their speed isn't horse fast. For bonus points, you can be a Mastermind Rogue and shout at an ally (giving them advantage) as a bonus action every turn in addition to your normal horsey horsey stabby stabby.

[WiserOdin032402]

The only book to make a ripple in 5 years was an Eberron book and right after Wizards greenlight a book for Critical Role so I don't see any real progress on the game being made at all.

XGtE and Rising from the Last War are the only 5e books worth anything and XGtE is only worth something because not only does it give shit that should have been in the PHB (skill and tool uses), for having workable crafting rules, and for literally giving a table for how many magic items a party should have to finally rip off that retarded bandaid once and for all. Eberron more or less rips that same bandaid off harder and basically confirms that crafting times from Xanathar's are the real crafting times and gives us a bevy of player facing content including the artificer and it's whole two subclasses, Artillerist and Battlesmith. (Alchemist doesn't exist, it's in your head. It's not real.)

Too bad Dragonmarks help casters the most, being a subrace that gives spells on the spell list.

The problem is the developers are apparently supposed to be avoiding 'breaking the game' with content bloat which is devspeak for 'Yeah Mike Mearls wants to make content but fuck making books we'll just put out his napkin notes'. And no, I'm not joking. Mike Mearls makes crazy fucking pseudo first-party content on livestreams and then that just...never makes it to any books. Soulknife Monk? Nah. Acrobat Rogue? Nope (Not that it's very good). Kracken Warlock? Lolth Warlock? No and no. Slayer, Weapon Master, and Warlord Fighter subclasses? No. Not happening. Especially not Slayer, it's got weeaboo figthan magic on it, ergo it's gross. All this is just left to be added or not added to someone's game. It's all left on the table because none of it's going to make it to a fucking book because the only books we make are setting books with no content for players.

[ColorBlindNinja61]

If you're not allowing animate dead (or are allowing hirelings), the mundane classes aren't half bad.

Spellcasters still get Glyph of Warding and Animate Objects and are therefore better than you.

Plus, I remember 5e implying that hirelings should backstab you if the DM feels like it.

For those who are unfamiliar with the concept of a cavalry rogue, 5e sneak attack rules no longer require flat-footed or flanking. Instead, they require advantage or that a second enemy of the creature you're sneak attacking be adjacent to the target. If a rogue is attacking from horseback, there will be another enemy (the horse) adjacent when the rogue makes its attack. Thus, all mounted attacks by a rogue are sneak attacks. Horses can also use their turn to take the Disengage action (without it costing the rogue anything), so you can just repeated ride-by attack people to death if their ranged attacks aren't sneak-attack good (after Uncanny dodge, which halves their damage) and their speed isn't horse fast. For bonus points, you can be a Mastermind Rogue and shout at an ally (giving them advantage) as a bonus action every turn in addition to your normal horsey horsey stabby stabby.

And the primary problem with this concept is that doesn't work well in dungeons. Which are likely to be the focus of most games.

XGtE and Rising from the Last War are the only 5e books worth anything and XGtE is only worth something because not only does it give shit that should have been in the PHB (skill and tool uses), for having workable crafting rules, and for literally giving a table for how many magic items a party should have to finally rip off that retarded bandaid once and for all. Eberron more or less rips that same bandaid off harder and basically confirms that crafting times from Xanathar's are the real crafting times and gives us a bevy of player facing content including the artificer and it's whole two subclasses, Artillerist and Battlesmith. (Alchemist doesn't exist, it's in your head. It's not real.)

Which is a good thing, 5e's bizarre instance that magic items should be rare and you better be grateful that you get any you filthy power gamer, is stupid as hell.

The problem is the developers are apparently supposed to be avoiding 'breaking the game' with content bloat which is devspeak for 'Yeah Mike Mearls wants to make content but fuck making books we'll just put out his napkin notes'. And no, I'm not joking. Mike Mearls makes crazy fucking pseudo first-party content on livestreams and then that just...never makes it to any books. Soulknife Monk? Nah. Acrobat Rogue? Nope (Not that it's very good). Kracken Warlock? Lolth Warlock? No and no. Slayer, Weapon Master, and Warlord Fighter subclasses? No. Not happening. Especially not Slayer, it's got weeaboo figthan magic on it, ergo it's gross. All this is just left to be added or not added to someone's game. It's all left on the table because none of it's going to make it to a fucking book because the only books we make are setting books with no content for players.

Which is ironic as all fuck since 5e is broken with just its core books. Just like 3.5.

[Grek]

And the primary problem with this concept is that doesn't work well in dungeons. Which are likely to be the focus of most games.

Small rogue, medium mount. I did an Eberron version of it where I was a Talenta Halfling riding a dinosaur, but even in bog standard D&D riding dogs are a thing.

[OgreBattle]

their social media game is the strongest of tabletop RPG's, almost everyone I know who's played D&D5e got into it via youtubers

[Iduno]

Which is a good thing, 5e's bizarre instance that magic items should be rare and you better be grateful that you get any you filthy power gamer, is stupid as hell.

I've overheard people talking about the magic items they have in 5e, so it does sound like they've walked that back. It also means I hear less about them multiclassing their monk to rogue so they can do an average of 7 damage at level 5 or whatever other half-assed min-maxing the idiots who play 5e get up to.

The riding dog thing sounds actually good, and isn't magic, so most GMs would find some way to take it away.

[ColorBlindNinja61]

And the primary problem with this concept is that doesn't work well in dungeons. Which are likely to be the focus of most games.

Small rogue, medium mount. I did an Eberron version of it where I was a Talenta Halfling riding a dinosaur, but even in bog standard D&D riding dogs are a thing.

That solves one problem. Another is that Handle Animal is Mother May I.

Which is a good thing, 5e's bizarre instance that magic items should be rare and you better be grateful that you get any you filthy power gamer, is stupid as hell.

I've overheard people talking about the magic items they have in 5e, so it does sound like they've walked that back. It also means I hear less about them multiclassing their monk to rogue so they can do an average of 7 damage at level 5 or whatever other half-assed min-maxing the idiots who play 5e get up to.

Why am I not surprised...

The riding dog thing sounds actually good, and isn't magic, so most GMs would find some way to take it away.

This.

[Grek]

In 5e, it's not Handle Animal, it's Land Vehicle Proficiency. For some god-awful reason.

The riding dog thing sounds actually good, and isn't magic, so most GMs would find some way to take it away.

This.

Been a long time since I've seen a reverse Oberoni fallacy.

[Whatever]

In 5e, it's not Handle Animal, it's Land Vehicle Proficiency. For some god-awful reason.

Pretty sure that they didn't fuck up basic English quite that hard.

https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic ... ity-scores

Animal Handling

When there is any question whether you can calm down a domesticated animal, keep a mount from getting spooked, or intuit an animal’s intentions, the DM might call for a Wisdom (Animal Handling) check. You also make a Wisdom (Animal Handling) check to control your mount when you attempt a risky maneuver.

https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic ... ndVehicles

An animal pulling a carriage, cart, chariot, sled, or wagon can move weight up to five times its base carrying capacity, including the weight of the vehicle. If multiple animals pull the same vehicle, they can add their carrying capacity together.

...

Vehicle Proficiency: If you have proficiency with a certain kind of vehicle (land or water), you can add your Proficiency Bonus to any check you make to control that kind of vehicle in difficult circumstances.

[Lago PARANOIA]

From what I can tell, you still can win 5e forever with Animate Dead and Glyph of Warding. Necromancer Wizards are king, followed by Clerics & Bards, and non-magical martials suck ass.

The meta has been shifting away from those, as much as you take Adventurer's League as part of a meta.

Animate Dead isn't that big of a deal, even with Necromancer bonuses, because of logistics issues, AoEs, monster hp bloat, and encounters putting in a bunch of chaff mobs to mop up things like Animate Objects and Conjure Animal spam.

Same for Glyph of Warding. Even if you're using it for concentration-free buffs, very few of them last for more than an hour anyway. Even if you could spam the money for it, you're generally wasting spell slots unless you're doing teleport-ambushes -- which are much harder to do in 5E.

The meta right now revolves around getting AoEs to clear up chaff, blocking monster counterplays, and ferrying high-damage melee builds to key areas. Right now, the Sorceradin is the best all-around character, because 5E D&D monsters don't have an answer to high-damage characters who can ignore most shutdowns.

[WiserOdin032402]

Warlock Multiclasses were problems for a while because it used to be that Warlock regenerated all spell slots. They still are if you have a Sorcerer player, because Sorcerer has probably the worst setup of any devoted caster when it comes to getting resources back, so what some people do is play Sorcerlocks to get that first level feature (usually Hexblade for the medium armor, Cha to-hit and damage) and the two regenerating spell slots to cannibalize for sorcerery points.

I know PalaLocks are also a weird offshoot build because of the free spell slots for smiting and Hexblade synergy.

Edit: Two level dips were also popular for tricking out Eldritch Blast or getting other invocations, while three level dips are more edge cases mainly for a pact weapon or a pact book.

[ColorBlindNinja61]

In 5e, it's not Handle Animal, it's Land Vehicle Proficiency. For some god-awful reason.

The riding dog thing sounds actually good, and isn't magic, so most GMs would find some way to take it away.

This.

Been a long time since I've seen a reverse Oberoni fallacy.

Considering that 5e is the grognard edition, I think it's a perfectly valid point.

From what I can tell, you still can win 5e forever with Animate Dead and Glyph of Warding. Necromancer Wizards are king, followed by Clerics & Bards, and non-magical martials suck ass.

The meta has been shifting away from those, as much as you take Adventurer's League as part of a meta.

I thought Adventure's League banned a shitload of content right off the bat (like feats). Is it really indicative of typical play?

Animate Dead isn't that big of a deal, even with Necromancer bonuses, because of logistics issues, AoEs, monster hp bloat, and encounters putting in a bunch of chaff mobs to mop up things like Animate Objects and Conjure Animal spam.

But minionmancy is still the best way to break 5e?

Same for Glyph of Warding. Even if you're using it for concentration-free buffs, very few of them last for more than an hour anyway. Even if you could spam the money for it, you're generally wasting spell slots unless you're doing teleport-ambushes -- which are much harder to do in 5E.

Why is Scry n' Die harder to pull off in 5e?

The meta right now revolves around getting AoEs to clear up chaff, blocking monster counterplays, and ferrying high-damage melee builds to key areas. Right now, the Sorceradin is the best all-around character, because 5E D&D monsters don't have an answer to high-damage characters who can ignore most shutdowns.

What is it about Sorceradins that make them so good? Is it the spells they get? High saves?

[WiserOdin032402]

High saves, good spells, martial weapons and good armor, and the ability to smite for a fuckload of damage.

[ColorBlindNinja61]

High saves, good spells, martial weapons and good armor, and the ability to smite for a fuckload of damage.

Does this overlap with the builds that use lots of magic items to get good AC?

The good spells are from the Sorcerer list?

[WiserOdin032402]

Well, consider that a Sorcadin can use armor and a shield, and if they two-level dip they can get dueling style, which means that they can have a set of +3 full plate and a +3 shield or at a minimum wear Adamantine Armor (Negates Crits) which all gives them a hefty amount of frontline presence.

In general the sorcerer spell list is better than the Paladin spell list or no spell list, and since Smite converts spell slots into straight damage which gets doubled on a crit. You can basically kit yourself out to be a utility super gish that slams on people for a lot of damage with a high AC. You can also dip Hexblade Warlock to become SAD, Eldritch Blast, and for free spell points.