So long, and thanks for all the fish

[saithorthepyro]

I think there's good ways to do it, but yeah just haven't found one to really satisfy it. I'd like to see one where it's the focus but the closest we've had is the various investigation style games like say Call of C'thulu and Gumshoe but even then the focus still really isn't on social combat.

The Black Closet one at least sounds like a decent framework to start working off of.

[Koumei]

I liked the end battle for the Black Closet video game.

Might be biased cause the game, although long, is made of win.

Yeah that's a great game, albeit one that takes a while to complete and then if you want to double-complete it by getting good endings with everyone it involves doing basically the same thing (albeit with RNG modifying it all so it's not just a direct "skip all this, make different choice") again each time.

The end battle is decent albeit simple - it sort of builds on the basic mechanics used in the regular game (d20+stat vs static DC, and in chapter 1 if they're the secret traitor they have a 5% chance of failing regardless, so you have even more encouragement to send people on solo "can't fail" missions because even if they fail, they've outed themselves. I can't remember how team efforts are resolved).

For more complexity you'd probably want people to have a variety of special actions they use that are probably "burned out" after such that they're effectively 1/encounter - some would involve letting you swap one stat check for another, some would involve jumping in and helping someone else's check, or subtracting from it, or negating the "damage" of a failure. Or passing an enemy "attack" off from you to someone else. There are ways you could build on it.

But as someone who sucks at talking to people I'm going to admit making something that emulates actual social debates and arguments is beyond my ability.

[Thaluikhain]

I can't remember how team efforts are resolved.

You pick the highest relevant stat. So, you might want to pair the girl with 40 sneakiness with the girl with 40 watchfulness for a sneaking and watching thing, but there's no point pairing the girl with the 40 sneakiness with the girl with 30 sneakiness for the the sneaking thing, it's just the 40 that matters.

[deaddmwalking]

By contrast many of the folks here were far closer to Frank in the past. And yet you're all too busy saying "good riddance".

It's a shame that Frank left. He wasn't always right I sometimes found it frustrating when he tried to insist that things were obviously one way or another way without reviewing his precepts, but generally he was pretty solid and arguments with him were elucidating for lurkers.

Kaelik is not and has not been the emotional center of this site, and it certainly would have been better if he had left. But that has nothing to do with game design and entirely about 'sniping from the left'. I wish Frank had just put Kaelik on a permanent ignore.

[Mord]

One problem with social combat that you'd have to resolve is that in many circumstances, even when the issue has clearly been settled in the minds of any onlookers, there's nothing that really forces anyone to stop talking. Even when you've driven your interlocutor into a full-blown narcissistic meltdown where they start bragging about their girlfriend who lives in Canada, and nobody observing could conceivably be taking them seriously anymore, there's no way to actually stop them from continuing to yammer on without turning into an actual physical combat.

[violence in the media]

Maybe on the internet. Face to face though, you can definitely get people to sometimes shut up and back down by getting them to feel intimidated, embarrassed, foolish, frustrated, uncool, or whatever. And I'd argue that the bouncer (or equivalent) threatening to remove someone from a location is another step in social combat, just before physical combat. It's an intimidation attack with a threat of sanctioned/justifiable escalation or retaliation.

Like physical combat, social combat needs to produce outputs where one party cannot choose to continue to engage. You may argue that your barbarian can't be felled by such a weak attack from a kobold, but you had 3 hp left and it rolled 4 damage.

[OgreBattle]

A recent thread on sanity/fear mechanics had (Grek, I think) bring up a neat system

You have HOPES- Bonus to act towards them, penalty to act act against them
You have FEARS- Bonus to act away from fear, penalty to resist
You lose RESOLVE acting against hopes and facing fears, if resolve falls under a rising Horror level you take penalties.
You can gain new fears and lose hopes easily, but the reverse is difficult.

A social system could give a temporary Hope/Fear, or altering an existing one. A social combat type would specialize in flipping fears/hopes so your rousing speech is more powerful when facing a great fear. Mind Control and Illusions of sorts is thus acting on a Hope of someone elses making

[PhoneLobster]

Like physical combat, social combat needs to produce outputs where one party cannot choose to continue to engage. You may argue that your barbarian can't be felled by such a weak attack from a kobold, but you had 3 hp left and it rolled 4 damage.

Why do people keep belatedly coming to same conclusions I came to a decade ago as just the preliminary premises of work I've done since?

But, so much for talking about that because I think social mechanics/social combat whatever you want to call it doesn't deserve the stain of being associated with THIS thread.

[Grek]

I was the one to suggest that, yes, but the description isn't quite how it works. The actual idea was you'd have a periodically rising level of Horror which is resisted by Resolve. At first, Horror grants a bonus to your rolls, as the severity of the situation galvanizes characters to take action, but once Horror exceeds Resolve, it flips to being a penalty instead as your courage fails you. Hopes and Fears modify your effective Resolve for the purposes of taking certain actions - when you get near to the breaking point, you are less able to force yourself to do things that go against your natural inclinations.

You could probably translate that into a decent enough social system - you have Resolve opposed by Pressure instead of Horror, escalating whenever the social situation gets more heated. Easy enough so far. What I'm more hesitant on is Hopes and Fears as your building blocks. That's not quite a direct match - instead I'd go with Appearances and Interests as a replacement. Personal reputations that you wish to maintain (and which could in turn interact with the foot in the door and disguise modules of your social challenges system) and personal goals which your character pursues out of personal interest, either as a hobby or as a moral concern. Beekeeping's an interest, but so is revenge.

The other concern is that unlike with horror, we'd actually like characters to be socially defeated once the Pressure gets too high - we don't want people to declare that they're going to soldier on despite the penalties they're accumulating and keep arguing - we eventually want the entire room to snub them and the butler to escort them from the building. So instead of morale penalties, the rule would be instead that if Pressure is greater than your character's effective Resolve with regards to a particular topic, your character is Overwhelmed and can no longer advance their position socially. They can still talk (to complain to their allies, to challenge someone to a duel, to cast a spell, etc.) but their words will no longer bring them any closer to getting what they want.

You should probably still give the bonuses for having Pressure (as this incentivizes the characters to talk out their problems and get involved in heated dialogue in the first place), but having people actually get knocked out of 'social combat' is important. It also means that exchanging a dramatic speech before the battle is a reasonable thing for the players to do OOCly, which should handily solve any lingering desire for them to get their narratively inappropriate mid-monologue stab on.

[Leress]

I agree with Phone, why is there a social interaction mechanic discussion here. There are plenty of the threads for this.

This thread was for Shrap's departure.

[MGuy]

I found it better than continuing to watch Zine continue to shit it up but yes, if there's going to be another thread about social stuff it should be moved.

[Zinegata]

Kaelik is not and has not been the emotional center of this site, and it certainly would have been better if he had left. But that has nothing to do with game design and entirely about 'sniping from the left'. I wish Frank had just put Kaelik on a permanent ignore.

What I said is that Kaelik had a clique who tends to echo what he says in a bad parody of reddit brigade tactics. That is not the same as saying Kaelik is the emotional center of the site.

And yet you're literally the third person to promote this lie that I claim Kaelik is the "emotional center" of this site. You're literally proving the echo-chamber / brigading point through demonstration rather than disproving it.

More importantly, this lie is distraction from the fact I keep repeating:

Kaelik IS one of the people who used to be close to Frank. And yet he is pretty much trying to deny his role in Frank's departure now.

He's therefore very much an example of the kind of garbage people you'll encounter in the Den. Doesn't matter if you think you're friends and you've interacted for years. They'll throw you under the bus and say "good riddance" the moment they feel they are losing social control.

And that's also why all this anti-ableism talk is just virtue-signalling. It's just ways to avoid having to face the reality that this place does in fact have lots of garbage people who treat others badly.

If there's a real emotional center to this site, it can be summed up in a single word rather than a single person: And that word is cowardice.

Very, very few people here are actually truly brave. Even Frank was mostly bluster; he wasn't brave.

Because they don't want to own up to their own mistakes.

And in large part no one wants to be brave here because they're so terrified of being voted off the island. Because driving people off or ignoring them has been this site's preferred solution to any "problem".

But hey, sure, I'm just an asshole bragging about my imaginary successes. I'm not the guy many Denners said "good riddance" to when I stopped posting (if they noticed at all), only to turn out to have a pretty good life anyway.

[Kevin Mack]

Good gods Zinegata at this point it dosent matter if what your saying is right or not since your coming across as something from a comedy skit trying to have the last word.

[Zinegata]

Good gods Zinegata at this point it dosent matter if what your saying is right or not since your coming across as something from a comedy skit trying to have the last word.

Yes, I hear that line from Trump supporters all the time too when they try to defend their lord and master for the Covid disaster. "It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong, you're being rude to us" is such a popular refrain among that crowd.

Maybe recognize I don't give a fuck about how a bunch of strangers on the Internet want to depict me to serve their own personal fanfiction.

In reality, I just replied to one guy who was just repeating a lie I never said. But sure pretend it's a comedy skit.

[Kevin Mack]

Oh my god it is a comedy skit. Are you gonna wait till till the day this forum closes and at the very last second type Fushta to be the last post?

[Foxwarrior]

I tried to do that earlier with politics but I timed it wrong.

[deaddmwalking]

What I said is that Kaelik had a clique who tends to echo what he says in a bad parody of reddit brigade tactics. That is not the same as saying Kaelik is the emotional center of the site.

And I say you're wrong. Sometimes people agree with Kaelik and sometimes people disagree with Kaelik. But nobody LIKES Kaelik, and he doesn't coordinate 'a brigade'.

And yet you're literally the third person to promote this lie that I claim Kaelik is the "emotional center" of this site. You're literally proving the echo-chamber / brigading point through demonstration rather than disproving it.

Which is funny because I have Kaelik on permanent ignore. Maybe if people keep misunderstanding you, it is because of the way you communicate.

More importantly, this lie is distraction from the fact I keep repeating:

Kaelik IS one of the people who used to be close to Frank. And yet he is pretty much trying to deny his role in Frank's departure now.

I don't read what Kaelik said, but I doubt he'd deny that Frank left because of him. Frank literally said something to the effect of 'fine, you win Kaelik, I'm tired of this bullshit'. So maybe you're misunderstanding what he's saying.

He's therefore very much an example of the kind of garbage people you'll encounter in the Den.

I don't disagree that Kaelik is an example of 'garbage people'. He is the one and only person I have on permanent ignore and that's exactly the reason. It doesn't follow that there is a 'brigade' in support of Kaelik. I'm not defending HIM, I'm defending the autonomy of everyone else.

And in large part no one wants to be brave here because they're so terrified of being voted off the island. Because driving people off or ignoring them has been this site's preferred solution to any "problem".

I think you're suggesting motives without support. This place has never had or sought a reputation for 'coddling'. People get defensive about their ideas ESPECIALLY when they're bad and this site has always prided itself on focus on ideas and not the person that suggested them. The political talk has been the main exception - it's been 100% personal attacks and very little about defending ideas.

[Darth Rabbitt]

Stop feeding the fascist concern troll.

[Sigil]

This thread is the best proof I've seen that political discussion is not and never was the root of the problem with the Den. In any other place I've ever been online shitposting for the explicit purpose of trying to prevent new members from joining (read, actively trying to destroy the forum) would just get you banned. Even communities full of awful people are smart enough to ban you if you're just there to try to destroy them. None of the rules for this forum though actually seem to be about fostering a good community, there aren't any guidelines for acceptable interactions between posters, there isn't a rule about not harassing other users, there's nothing that indicates that there's even any sort of unacceptable behavior other than a very limited set of literally illegal things, or things that would generate enough reports from users to be annoying. The rules that we have seem to be entirely focused on 'not being bothered' (either by the users themselves or the FBI), instead of fostering an actual community.

[DSMatticus]

But nobody LIKES Kaelik, and he doesn't coordinate 'a brigade'.

I don't disagree that Kaelik is an example of 'garbage people'. He is the one and only person I have on permanent ignore and that's exactly the reason.

Kaelik is fine. He seems to be kinda bad at diplomatically taking shit from people, or just unwilling to do it as part of his hobbies, but he's no more abrasive than Frank or I ever were. You just find Frank saying things like "you're all a bunch of pedophiles for retweeting viral twitter memes from a guy who would later turn out to be a pedophile, GOTCHA" more tolerable than whatever it is that got you to put Kaelik on ignore, presumably because one's being directed at you and the other wasn't.

Which would be fine, honestly, your ignore list is your's and you can do whatever the fuck you want with it to make your Den experience more comfy. But if you're going to sit there with your head up your ass sampling your own aromas and pretending your ignore list is a moral statement or indictment of character... uhh... yeah, anyone with any sense is gonna laugh in your face. Occluded Sun isn't on there for telling you America was more free when black people were slaves, but Kaelik is on there for... I don't know, "hyperbolically" describing the politics of healthcare as a matter of deciding whether or not to let people die or whatever it was that tipped you over?

Yeah, your ignore list isn't a moral statement. Kaelik's on there because he pissed you off, and Occluded Sun isn't because despite being among the most garbage people to ever come here he's comically non-threatening. Off the high horse, you're fuckin' embarrassing yourself.

I'm going to genuinely lose my shit when this manages to derail this already derailed thread into defending Occluded Sun. "I'd rather have a confederate apologist than an angry leftist!" Fuck, that would be the realest shit ever, wouldn't it?

[Avoraciopoctules]

This thread is the best proof I've seen that political discussion is not and never was the root of the problem with the Den. In any other place I've ever been online shitposting for the explicit purpose of trying to prevent new members from joining (read, actively trying to destroy the forum) would just get you banned. Even communities full of awful people are smart enough to ban you if you're just there to try to destroy them. None of the rules for this forum though actually seem to be about fostering a good community, there aren't any guidelines for acceptable interactions between posters, there isn't a rule about not harassing other users, there's nothing that indicates that there's even any sort of unacceptable behavior other than a very limited set of literally illegal things, or things that would generate enough reports from users to be annoying. The rules that we have seem to be entirely focused on 'not being bothered' (either by the users themselves or the FBI), instead of fostering an actual community.

This could make for a pretty fascinating discussion, if people are interested in that. It would not be the first essay I have written about the principles of externality. However, it would probably be wise to make that a separate thread, and to include some suggestions about the kinds of rules you'd like to see replacing the current system.

In addition, you might want to consider this post made by fbmf in the Rules thread last year.

I'd also like to take a moment to remind everyone that when I founded The Den I was a sophomore in college, single, and not a father (i.e.-I had a lot more free time on my hands). These days I'm married, have a full time job, a part time job, am married (Ramnza and I celebrated 11 years last week), and two daughters (one of which has special needs). While I spend as much time here as I can, that usually amounts to less than thirty minutes a day and I certainly don't read every word. If you see something you'd like me to review REPORT IT. My seeing this within 24 hours of you posting it was dumb luck. For the last eight years or so I've flown solo as far as Moderating, and I'm not complaining, but my life circumstances require a certain amount of community participation.

[/TGFBS][/b]

The main moderator here has a lot of Real Life stuff to deal with. If you want a more thoroughly moderated community, you would likely either have to bring in new trustworthy moderators or move to a larger community.

[saithorthepyro]

Honestly the only thing to be gotten out of this is to just stop feeding Zine. He's literally here to try and kill any chance of new people coming to these forums by frequently yelling into the threads here about how we are all garbage people who exist for the singular purpose of telling each other how shit we are and taking everyone down, how we only care about social issues to white knight against him specifically, about how he's moved past this place to something meaningful because this forum is something not meaningful while at the same time continuing to post in IMHO. If you want to boast about how you had a successful and good life by ignoring and leaving TGD, go ahead and do it Zine, no one gives a crap.

[phlapjackage]

But nobody LIKES Kaelik, and he doesn't coordinate 'a brigade'.

I don't disagree that Kaelik is an example of 'garbage people'. He is the one and only person I have on permanent ignore and that's exactly the reason.

Kaelik is fine. He seems to be kinda bad at diplomatically taking shit from people, or just unwilling to do it as part of his hobbies, but he's no more abrasive than Frank or I ever were. You just find Frank saying things like "you're all a bunch of pedophiles for retweeting viral twitter memes from a guy who would later turn out to be a pedophile, GOTCHA" more tolerable than whatever it is that got you to put Kaelik on ignore, presumably because one's being directed at you and the other wasn't.

Which would be fine, honestly, your ignore list is your's and you can do whatever the fuck you want with it to make your Den experience more comfy. But if you're going to sit there with your head up your ass sampling your own aromas and pretending your ignore list is a moral statement or indictment of character... uhh... yeah, anyone with any sense is gonna laugh in your face. Occluded Sun isn't on there for telling you America was more free when black people were slaves, but Kaelik is on there for... I don't know, "hyperbolically" describing the politics of healthcare as a matter of deciding whether or not to let people die or whatever it was that tipped you over?

Yeah, your ignore list isn't a moral statement. Kaelik's on there because he pissed you off, and Occluded Sun isn't because despite being among the most garbage people to ever come here he's comically non-threatening. Off the high horse, you're fuckin' embarrassing yourself.

I'm going to genuinely lose my shit when this manages to derail this already derailed thread into defending Occluded Sun. "I'd rather have a confederate apologist than an angry leftist!" Fuck, that would be the realest shit ever, wouldn't it?

I want to sig this whole post...

[Zinegata]

What I said is that Kaelik had a clique who tends to echo what he says in a bad parody of reddit brigade tactics. That is not the same as saying Kaelik is the emotional center of the site.

And I say you're wrong. Sometimes people agree with Kaelik and sometimes people disagree with Kaelik. But nobody LIKES Kaelik, and he doesn't coordinate 'a brigade'.

Ah yes so that's why they push the exact same talking points.

Maybe consider that The_Donald brigaders also delusionally think they aren't cult members and they "think for themselves", when in reality it's very clear when people are just closing ranks.

Which is funny because I have Kaelik on permanent ignore. Maybe if people keep misunderstanding you, it is because of the way you communicate.

And yet you repeated his talking point, which was a lie repeated by others not on your ignore list.

See how easy it is for others to manipulate them into repeating their bullshit?

I don't read what Kaelik said, but I doubt he'd deny that Frank left because of him.

He literally told me in the other thread he wasn't the one at fault for Frank leaving, and then added a rejoinder that he might have something to do with it.

But sure, pretend this isn't the classic old brigade of people repeating the same tired old lies over and over until they stick.

[Zinegata]

This thread is the best proof I've seen that political discussion is not and never was the root of the problem with the Den. In any other place I've ever been online shitposting for the explicit purpose of trying to prevent new members from joining (read, actively trying to destroy the forum) would just get you banned.

When did I ever say people shouldn't join the Den?

I'm simply warning them of the shit they can expect. Indeed, if one poster like me can apparently destroy a community, are you sure you can call that place a community?

Maybe the problem, as always, is that people don't want to be honest with themselves.

All of the other things you said though - yep, all of those things are true. And yes, the admin's made it clear he doesn't have the time or inclination to moderate heavily.

But I've been to other forums where the admins were just as lax, and it didn't necessarily turn into an ignore-fest. Its not a moderation issue. It's a community issue.