Gary Gygax in the twilight of his gaming career.

[User3]

I still see a lot of written interviews of Gary Gygax. And he still posts a lot at EnWorld under the nom de plume of Col_Pladoh


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... and ...
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I'm just curious what a lot of you think about the "Father of the Game" at this stage in his life. I know he is around 67 years old, with failing health, and diminishing in his capacity as an insightful / creative author of D&D articles and game accessories. But he does seem to be gaining steam as this personality icon of the game that deserves to be cherished, protected, and venerated by the world's collective gaming community.

So .... I'm not looking for character assassination of E.G.G. Or fanboy gushing for that matter. Moreso just an accurate assessment of his role and presence in the current-day D&D sphere of influence.

[Neeek]

...

That's a strange request. He's a guy. He did some stuff a long time ago. Some of it good, a lot of it bad. Is he worthy of reverence? Hell no.

The list he's number 1 on is interesting though.

[Username17]

When he was the big man in the company, he took the writings of other people and put his own name on them. When he co-wrote AD&D with Arneson, he left off the attribution and his own name was the only one that recieved credit in the copyright - and the only one that checks were made out to.

He did not apologize to Arneson until after his bad business sense and ego had lost him all stake in the company. By the time he admitted that other people should have recieved royalties, it was too late for him to actually make good on any of them.

He lived as a thief, and he will die as a thief. He put off his repentence for too long, and now it's too late.

-Username17

[Wrenfield]

I had no idea he was almost 70 years old.

You can definitely tell he really gets off on all the praise heaped onto him by random nobodies on message boards.

Along the lines of what Frank wrote, I also notice he tends to reminisce a lot about his sons gameplay back in the day - but he rarely ever talks about Paul Arneson, the co-creator of D&D. You would think his most memorable moments would have been in the halcyon days of early D&D creation and gaming with Paul. I knew there was a falling out between the two. But it must still be bitter memories between the two.

Otherwise, I don't see him doing or saying much of any real relevance today. I guess every hobby community wants or needs a cult of personality. And somehow, he seems to be the one at the top of the pyramid. Oh well ...

[Lago_AM3P]

ha ha

We're still combing out the crap from your rules 35 frickin' years later you vindictive POS. For the love of God, don't put this man in any sort of charismatic position. People are STILL defending stupid legacy mechanics and design philosophy. Like this one I blame on Gygaxian philosophy: Persistent Spell is both a pretty much useless feat in 3.5E and way more face-rockingly awesome than in 3.0E. A minority of clerics can elect to use divine metamagic now and load up on one or more elemental domains. So even though persistent spell might've been 'fixed', a recursive change to the rules make it way worse than its original iteration.

But it's all cool, because now you get better results from an obscure combo (rather than getting good results from an obvious one). But since people are stringing together rules, this means that it will be more obvious to the DM what's up! That way he can use Rule Zero better on the people who slip through! Then it's all good!

Just one of the many crappy design theorems Gygax brought to the table. People are still defending this and similarly silly design principles (A poster who shall remain nameless pretty much said that's what he wanted, for example--check out one of the threads on harm).

Goddamn you, Gygax. Eat poison, you unloved thief.

[Wrenfield]

Well, at at least Dave Arneson got *this* ...



Gosh, he seems like a much more jovial person than Gary ...

[RandomCasualty]

Classic Gygax bashing... sigh, this is as bad as the Gygax fanboyism that goes on at EN world, only in reverse.

Gygax deserves some respect, I mean he did pretty much start up the D&D game for the world which was as far as I know the first RPG out there. While RPG theory may have evolved a bit since his days, he did lay the foundations, and we wouldn't have 3rd edition or probably most other RPGs if it wasn't for Gygax. At the very least Gygax deserves credit for coming up with something nobody else had up to that point.

Gygax did a lot for the hobby, he's not God, but he still contributed, and pretty much most RPG conventions like using dice, attack rolls, damage rolls and the concept of single DM, all come from Gygax. Without Gygax who knows where RPGs would have gone. Probably nowhere.

Gygax today is much like resurrecting Sir Isaac Newton and brigning him into a modern day science lab. His principles are still in use at their base core, and recognizeable as being similar, but things have evolved since his original contributions. Still things likely wouldnt' have evolved that way had he not existed.

[MrWaeseL]

I heard he was an awful DM.

-----

And don't go putting Isaac Newton on a pedestal either. That man was a total arrogant asshole in the latter days of his life.

[RandomCasualty]

1110134329[/unixtime]]
And don't go putting Isaac Newton on a pedestal either. That man was a total arrogant asshole in the latter days of his life.

Right, it's actually why I used Newton as an example.

I'm not saying Gygax should be put on a pedestal so to speak. I'm just saying he does deserve some degree of respect for what he did. While we may not like Gygax, the truth has to be accepted that the RPG hobby wouldn't be nearly as big as it is today if it wasn't for him.

There's a trend among people to destroy heroes which is as strong in some as fanboyism in others, and honestly both of them are rather sickening.

[Oberoni]

RC summed it up pretty well.

I respect Gygax for, you know, being one of the pioneers of the hobby. I respect his accomplishments.

What he did to Dave Arneson was cold.

[User3]

Okay, there seems to be a lot of admiration and respect for Dave Arneson here.

What exactly did he do? I mean - was he like the game mechanics expert of original D&D while Gygax was the ombudsman for everything else? What's the dealio?

[Lago_AM3P]

I don't feel like giving Gygax any respect.

He took a pre-existing game and decided that maybe people would like to roleplay the individual soldiers instead of the units.

I understand the difficulty of writing a rules-set for this and that he had to invent new paradigms on the fly (especially since the original game was that of adverserial combat) but his personality and style made the game a lot worse than it needed to have been.

Compare to Newton, whose douche personality did not actually get in the way of any of his accomplishments.

[Lago_AM3P]

Dave Arneson got a good consolation prize, at least.

[Maj]

Someone mentioned Castles and Crusades as an excellent D&D resource. Supposedly, it's a "simplified" version of 3.0. What Gygax technically had to do with it is unknown to me, but if the answer is nothing, then he is the patron deity of every person who thinks that their crappy ideas ought to be bound, sold as a book, and shoved into the hands of gamers everywhere. If the answer to the question is something the man ought to be put out of our misery.

I bought the book for Valentine's Day for Ess, and it was so bad that we both decided it was better to return. All of the modules and stuff are named after Gygax (I think they're called Zagyg), and the entire book tried to harken back to the good old days. Its simplifications are actually greater complications, but with feats and skills removed so things appear easier.

If this is the garbage he inspires, he is no one I'd want to hang out with. His game happened 30+ years ago. It's not the same one that exists now, and I'd appreciate him staying away from my imagination.

[Oberoni]

If this is the garbage he inspires, he is no one I'd want to hang out with.

Since you're posting on a primarily D&D-related message board, it's safe to say that some of the "garbage" he inspired is whatever version of the game you're currently playing.

I have no problem with people dissing Gygax's business ethics. And I have no problem with people saying that he's not on the cutting edge of the industry (That's probably what happens when you're getting into your 70s. We can't all be Clint Eastwood, you know)

However, I find all the we're-too-good-for-one-of-the-founders-of-the-game attitude in your post and others to be elitist, and not in that cool, hip sort of elitist sense for which I frequent Nifty and the Den in the first place.

[Username17]

People asking me to like, pay homage to, or even respect Gary Gygax is like people asking the same of me towards Alexander Hamilton.

Sure he was there when a lot of cool stuff went down. But most of the cool stuff that happened in spite of him, not because of him.

Alexander Hamilton was the founding father who said that it was madness to give power over the land to anyone save for those who owned it. Gygax is the founding game designer who said that people who wanted to play Traveler were thieves even while he was writing his own name on other peoples' manuscripts.

The reason we have games set in space, the middle future, and in comic-book realities is not because Gygax helped us accomplish these dreams. It is because Gygax failed in his attempt to crush Traveler, Champions, and even Car Wars.

He really tried to crush all gaming except for his own twisted vision and he failed. People played games, even RPGs before he was around. Remember, the first RPG Gygax was ever in was one he joined in as a player in college. Then he wrote down the rules he thought they were using and sold it.

He invented the RPG in the same way that Columbus discovered America. Complete with the Syphillis. If it's OK to be pretty pissed at Colombus - it's OK to be mad at Gygax.

The world wouldn't be the same without Gygax. The person I am today would be all butterfly effected away and I (as I currently know myself) wouldn't even exist. The same can be said for Columbus. Or Hitler.

I don't get up and pay respects to Hitler because I wouldn't exist without him. I suppose I could do that. It's technically accurate. But having people get pissy at me because I don't give Hitler the credit he's due for making the world into what it is today is just kind of creepy.

Yeah, fvck Gygax. He gets way too damned much credit for everything. And if we have to go too far and blacken his name into the pits of revilement just to even things out - I'm really willing to do that.

There was a brief period in the early seventies when Gygax was good for the hobby because his products were the only ones being sold in stores in Florida. Before and after that he was bad for the hobby. And that's a country fact.

-Username17

[User3]

1110139079[/unixtime]]Okay, there seems to be a lot of admiration and respect for Dave Arneson here.

What exactly did he do? I mean - was he like the game mechanics expert of original D&D while Gygax was the ombudsman for everything else? What's the dealio?

Looks like the consensus is that EGG sucks. Now the post above intrigues me because it sounds like Arneson perhaps should have more of that fan respect and veneration than EGG deserves.

Although for the life of me, I don't know what Arneson did besides create and DM the Blackmoor campaign world.

[Josh_Kablack]

My feelings for Gygax are nearly identical to my feelings towards Jack Kirby:

To Sum Up: "Wow!! What a revolutionary pioneer!! But Wow!! Look how much better the product has gotten since they were doing stuff!! Good lord some of their masterworks are total crap by today's standards."

I admire the hell out of both of them, and at the same time, I consider both "Gygaxian DM" and "Kirby Perspective" to be insults.

[fbmf]

"Gygaxian DM" I know, but what is the "Kirby Perspective"?

Game On,
fbmf

[Wrenfield]

Apparently, the most common name or face that comes to mind to the "average D&D gamer in the world" (or anyone for that matter, who knows a little trivia about the game) ... is Gary Gygax.

Not Dave Arneson, Monte, SKR, Andy, Skip, Erol Otus, Ed Greenwood, or any of the other 250 important names in the history of the game.

So until the game dies or a charismatic game genius enters-&-dominates the scene - Gary Gygax will be *the* figurehead title and Great Grandfather of the D&D game. Like it or not.

I'm actually surprised how many people know of his name that have never played the game, but have a mild understanding of the cultural impact and significance of the game. The name Gygax has some serious saturation into American pop-culture history. Even Europeans, Phillipinos, and Aussies are familiar with the guy.

[User3]

Gygax is like David Bowie or Madonna or Meatloaf.

None of them are authentic artists, but they do have charisma and at least an eye for real talent (even if they are stealing the fruits of that talent). They all have teams or individuals behind them writing their material.

However, they have changed the artistic landscape for us all because they got out ideas that otherwise would have never gotten out, and we owe them a great debt for that. I mean, if Arneson had charisma he never would have needed Gygax, right? Sure, he deserved a share of the profits, but Madonna gets a lot more money than her songwriters and producers, and that is generally the way of leaders and followers.

Don't hate the player; hate the game.

[RandomCasualty]

1110154494[/unixtime]]
However, I find all the we're-too-good-for-one-of-the-founders-of-the-game attitude in your post and others to be elitist, and not in that cool, hip sort of elitist sense for which I frequent Nifty and the Den in the first place.

I second that.

[Username17]

1110237198[/unixtime]]Apparently, the most common name or face that comes to mind to the "average D&D gamer in the world" (or anyone for that matter, who knows a little trivia about the game) ... is Gary Gygax.

Not Dave Arneson, Monte, SKR, Andy, Skip, Erol Otus, Ed Greenwood, or any of the other 250 important names in the history of the game.

So until the game dies or a charismatic game genius enters-&-dominates the scene - Gary Gygax will be *the* figurehead title and Great Grandfather of the D&D game. Like it or not.

I'm actually surprised how many people know of his name that have never played the game, but have a mild understanding of the cultural impact and significance of the game. The name Gygax has some serious saturation into American pop-culture history. Even Europeans, Phillipinos, and Aussies are familiar with the guy.

And this is why I fvcking hate that guy. Gygax's credit stealing and self-aggrandizment worked. People really believe all that bullshit about how he was the sole creator of role playing games, some people even think he invented the fantasy genre!

Gygax spent years dividing and damaging the role playing community. And he did so in a way that was supposed to get him personal followers and personal glory. And it worked. It fvcking worked. His bullshit and his poisonous lies were so strong, and the rest of the world so apathetic, that in the distant future he'll probably be listed as the sole creator of the RPG - exactly as he intended.

That's why it's so important to piss on his memory. If we don't, the moral of the story will be "If you alienate a lot of people and plagarize a bunch of peoples' life work - you'll end up getting sole credit and be beloved by millions in the long run."

Fvck that. If there is to be justice in the future, it must be served now. Gary Gygax can't be allowed to be respected. By anyone.

-Username17

[grey_muse]

1110176061[/unixtime]]"Gygaxian DM" I know, but what is the "Kirby Perspective"?

Jack Kirby was an artist who pretty much instrumental in creating modern (Silver Age) comics. Starting from the 1930's, he drew comics for some five or six decades. I'm guessing 'Kirby Perspective' refers to his artistic style, though I don't know the specifics.

Unless I missed a major news flash, though, he's pretty much universally respected by comic artists, unlike Gygax with gamers/authors.

I dunno; I kind of gathered Gygax was a dick, but I don't really see how he provokes such a response from the people on this board. Though I do agree that we have to deal with a lot of bad legacy mechanics because of his original design.

[Username17]

Jack Kirby pushed the boundaries of the production methods of comic books of the day. His art is often beautiful (also often blocky and inane, but them's the breaks), and is doubly astounding when you realize the limitations he had been working with.

This was a medium where you couldn't print the word "FLICK" because the letters were probably going to run together and say "FUCK". When he came of the scene, no characters could have brown hair because the color prcess wouldn't reliably make browns. And despite the level of inaccuracies in the process itself, Kirby was able to make things which really moved.

Sure, the stuff people make today is better. But it has more to work with. Today you can make a Samurai Jack piece that doesn't even have any black lines! Kirby never could have done that - because the printers he was working with couldn't have shown that. Kirby had a great sense of what his medium was capable of, and constantly pushed from within those confines to do cool stuff.

And a lot of it's really hoaky. Really really hoaky. But it was a step forward on many levels. And Jack Kirby never threatened legal actions to stop other people from building on his innovations.

And that's why we respect Kirby and we don't respect Gygax. Kirby was part of the solution. Gygax was part of the problem.

-Username17