Plain 3.5 - PHB+DMG+MM1?

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dbb
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Re: Plain 3.5 - PHB+DMG+MM1?

Post by dbb »

OK, here's some things I would think about if I were running a core 3.5 game, in rough order of where they come in the books. I don't know that I would houserule all of them -- but I'd try to be aware of the impact they might have on the game, and consider whether the effects are things I like or don't like.


  • Races. In 3.5, some of the core races are generally regarded as statistically superior to others. In particular, the half-orc and half-elf are routinely derided as being underpowered. To what extent do I need to add goodies to some of the underutilized races to make them more attractive, or subtract them from some of the overused races to make them less so? How much can I affect the distribution of races by way of the setting -- if I give Elves roleplay-based advantages, will more people play them? How can I ensure that such campaign-specific advantages and disadvantages remain significant in play?

  • Clerics. Clerics are superior to Wizards and Sorcerers in every statistical category and get a number of additional class features, supposedly as compensation for a weaker spell list. Does the cleric spell list actually reflect this weakness? What, if any, spells need to be deleted from this list (or moved to the Wizard list) to ensure that the Cleric is not just a Wizard who's better at everything?

  • Fighters. At mid-high levels (5-10) for this campaign, fighting classes will start to become overshadowed by spellcasters. In particular, the straight Fighter has very little to recommend it after level 2, and even the Barbarian and the Ranger have only features that benefit very specific character concepts after the first few levels. To what degree do I need to improve the individual fighting classes, and how? Is giving them additional abilities on a par with their existing abilities adequate, or do the abilities available to them need to improve? A Wizard at 7th level gains access to at least 2 4th level spells per day; how does this compare with what a Fighter can gain at that level, and to what extent is that difference likely to be balanced by external factors (difficulty of gaining new spells, adventures with heavy time pressure, etc.)?

  • Sorcerers. The mechanic where a player selects a small number abilities at each level and can rarely if ever change his selections means that he will be stuck with those abilities for quite a while. How can I make sure that a Sorcerer player retains enough flexibility to be useful to the party in a broad array of situations? What additional options can I offer to Sorcerers to ensure that when they do select abilities, they don't need to keep selecting better versions of the same thing merely to remain effective (Charm Person, Suggestion, Dominate Person; Shocking Grasp, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning; etc.)?

  • Weapon Sizing. The 3.5 weapon sizing rules add considerable complexity over the 3.0 rules (or even over ignoring weapon size altogether), and make possible some strange results. What benefit do they offer (if any) in return for this additional complexity? If I don't elect to use the default rules, what, if any, changes are required for smaller than normal characters (halflings, etc.)?

  • Direct Damage Spells. Hit points have been substantially inflated in 3.0 and 3.5 over previous versions, and damage for most spells has remained the same -- so direct-damage spells are relatively less effective, meaning that enchantment, illusion, and transmutation spells are preferred by 3.5 Wizards. Does this fit in with the role I envision for Wizards in my campaign? If so, how can I make sure that players don't unintentionally select this suboptimal strategy? If not, what changes should I make to direct-damage spells to compensate for the degree to which they've been weakened?

  • Death from Massive Damage. By default, characters in 3.5 have a chance of dying instantly when they suffer damage over a certain threshold. This is one of the most commonly houseruled parts of 3.5, but before changing it, have I considered what effects my changes will have? To what degree do "hit points" represent physical ability to withstand damage under my campaign conception, as opposed to representing luck, divine favor, near misses, etc.? Does my concept of hit points mesh with whatever variation of the DFMD rule I've chosen?

  • Problematic Spells. A large number of spells in 3.5 have effects that are confusing, difficult to adjudicate, or often deemed undesirable for a campaign. Many of these spells won't appear in games below 10th level, but a substantial number still do; see the "Problematic Spell Forum" on the Wizards boards. For those spells that might appear in my game, are any changes needed? What spells, if any, ought to be removed entirely? Am I aware of what problems others have found with these spells in play, and am I prepared to address them in play if I do not do so preemptively?

  • Economic Issues. The default D&D setting assumes that characters can transform money into power via purchase of magic items. Spellcasters have options that permit them to trade downtime for a half share of the money required for a particular item. This assumption has all kinds of bizarre effects on a campaign -- high-level characters have a strong motivation for eating gruel and wearing rags because these things have no game effect, while purchasing magic items does. To what degree should magic items be available for purchase or creation in my campaign? If I intend to allow significant levels of magic item purchase, have I taken care to avoid allowing players to accumulate amounts of money out of proportion to their level, whatever method they employ to do so? If I do not intend to allow this, have I made sure to build sufficient flexibility into the items I place as treasure to account for player preference?

  • Powerful NPCs. The default D&D setting assumes that there are large amounts of high-level NPCs -- higher level than the campaign is intended to run -- in cities of significant size. What role do NPCs play in my campaign world? How widely distributed are NPCs of equal or superior ability to the PCs, throughout the planned duration of the campaign? How do I intend to handle interaction between such NPCs and the PCs?


Etc. There's lots more, but these are some of the issues that trouble me most. I hope that's the sort of thing you had in mind?

--d.
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Crissa
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Re: Plain 3.5 - PHB+DMG+MM1?

Post by Crissa »

Thanks, dbb.

Anyone want to tackle a specific item on the list?

My GM is more worried about the mechanic problems - Like Combat and Balancing Clerics with Fighters. As he hasn't run 3.5 before, he's a bit timid to go into the game with some players novice to the rules and some players - like me - who know many of the combat maneuvers which just seem hidden in the 3.5 book.

-Crissa
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Re: Plain 3.5 - PHB+DMG+MM1?

Post by RandomCasualty »

A lot on that list I don't really even agree with.

Clerics aren't especially problematic with core only. They can't afford metamagic quicken rods, so they've got to spend actions to buff. So long as you aren't worried about scry and die, you should be fine. I still fail to really see how a cleric can pwn anyone in a core only game stopping at level 10. The druid is certainly someone to worry about, but not clerics.

Your biggest offenders for spells are the teleportation series and polymorph. Polymorph I would honestly just ban, it's that bad. Maybe put a limitation for teleport to prevent people from using scry and die.

I don't really understand people's problems with the weapon size rules either. Quite frankly, I think all the talk about "hosing" small characters is pure bunk. Usually a small character loses a single point of average damage, such as d8 -> d6 or d6 -> d4. And I say, so what? You're gaining in return a +1 to attack and AC. Gven the choice between +1 damage or +1 attack and AC, I can hardly see anyone choosing the damage boost, ever. Even if you're talking about a greatsword, the shift is still only 1.5 average dmg, again nothing that someone is going to take over a +1 to all attacks and AC. The weapon sizes thing is mostly something people just complain about for no reason.

As for races, the half-orc really isn't all that terrible either and is another issue where people whine alot without any real cause. He's certainly weaker than the dwarf, but the dwarf is quite overpowered anyway. The half-orc is probably nerfed more than he had to be, but he's still very much playable despite popular opinion. If you're a barbarian int and cha are dump stats anyway. You wouldn't care if it was a -6 to int and cha, because the +2 strength is worth it. You're still getting a better deal from the dwarf by far, but you can still very well take a half orc to the table and do well.

The half-elf is total garbage on the other hand. I can't see why anyone would ever want to play one. As for what to give them, I have no clue. I'd think maybe giving them the human bonus feat, but no extra skill points might do it. The half-elves bonuses are so minor they're probably worth +1 skill point per level.

Death by massive damage isn't even a problem in a pre 10th level game, as effects that deal 50 or more damage in one shot are going to be really rare. This is a rule that you commonly worry about in 15th level games, but in low level games you really don't even know it's there, except the one time the guy with the scythe gets a critical, and he probably kills whatever he's aiming at anyway.

Direct damage spells are pretty much ok at 10th and lower too. They're on the weak side, but they're designed to take out groups of enemies not to kill one big target. I don't really see the evoker being that bad off.

In short, polymorph and the druid are your biggest threats to playability. Fix them and you should more or less be ok.
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Re: Plain 3.5 - PHB+DMG+MM1?

Post by Josh_Kablack »

Some suggested houserule patches:

dbb at [unixtime wrote:1121310058[/unixtime]]

  • Races. In 3.5, some of the core races are generally regarded as statistically superior to others. In particular, the half-orc and half-elf are routinely derided as being underpowered.


In addition to their PHB abilities, Half Elves get any one General Feat which they otherwise meet the prereqs for as a racial bonus feat 1st level. The restriction to General Feats is to keep them from overshadowing Humans.

Half-Orcs now get +4 to Str, -2 to Int, -2 to Cha. In addition to their PHB abilities, they get a +4 bonus to intimidate and may wield weapons appropriate for creatures one size category larger without penalty


[*] Clerics. Clerics are superior to Wizards and Sorcerers in every statistical category and get a number of additional class features, supposedly as compensation for a weaker spell list. Does the cleric spell list actually reflect this weakness? What, if any, spells need to be deleted from this list (or moved to the Wizard list) to ensure that the Cleric is not just a Wizard who's better at everything?


For a 1st-10th level game not using anything beyond the Core Rules, this is not going to be a big issue. If you want to bring in Complete Divine or go beyond 10th level, it will become one.


[*] Fighters. At mid-high levels (5-10) for this campaign, fighting classes will start to become overshadowed by spellcasters.


Quick Fix #1: Fighters get a feat per level, and the Rgr, Paladin and BBN get similar goodies.

Quick Fix #2: Make some crazy-go-nuts powerful PrCs available to fighter types. For example, compress the Frenzied Berserker (Complete Warrior) ability set into a 5 level PrC and remove the Auto-Frenzy when damaged drawback and you will have a fighter who can now keep up with both the spellcasters in the party and the mosnsters she is supposed to be fighting.


[*] Sorcerers. The mechanic where a player selects a small number abilities at each level and can rarely if ever change his selections means that he will be stuck with those abilities for quite a while. How can I make sure that a Sorcerer player retains enough flexibility to be useful to the party in a broad array of situations? What additional options can I offer to Sorcerers to ensure that when they do select abilities, they don't need to keep selecting better versions of the same thing merely to remain effective (Charm Person, Suggestion, Dominate Person; Shocking Grasp, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning; etc.)?


Josh's houserule sorcerers for the past 2 years:

Sorcerers receive Gather Information and the player’s choice of Diplomacy or Intimidate as a class skill (either one). Sorcerers receive Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at first level. Sorcerers do not take extra time to cast spells enhanced by metamagic feats. On tables 3-16 and 3-17, delete the spells known and spells per day entries for 2nd level sorcerers and shift levels 3 through 20 each up one level. At 20th level, sorcerers know 9/5/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3 spells and cast the same number of spells per day that they did at 19th level.

Additionally, A sorcerer may choose to specialize as a wizard. If they do so, they choose a specialty school and one or more prohibited schools, as does a wizard. As they do not need to make checks to scribe spells into spellbooks, they do not receive a bonus to spellcraft rolls to scribe spells of their chosen schools. Like a wizard, a specialist sorcerer cannot cast spells or use spell devices of his prohibited schools. A specialist sorcer does not receive extra spells per level per day, but instead receives one extra spell known within his chosen school for each level of spells which he can normally cast.


[*] Weapon Sizing. The 3.5 weapon sizing rules add considerable complexity over the 3.0 rules (or even over ignoring weapon size altogether), and make possible some strange results. What benefit do they offer (if any) in return for this additional complexity?


The 3.5 weapon size rules offer the following benefits:

1. The Dagger is less overpowered than in 3.0
2. It is significantly clearer how small characters wield bastard swords
3. The rogue and similar classes no longer gain or lose weapon proficiencies when their size is magically altered.

These benefits are only about equal to the ambiguities and complexities which the3.5 rules introduce, so I recommend that you use whichever ruleset your players are more comfortable with. If you do go with 3.5, I strongly encourage using the Weapon Equivalancies variant from page 27 of the DMG.


[*] Direct Damage Spells. Hit points have been substantially inflated in 3.0 and 3.5 over previous versions, and damage for most spells has remained the same -- so direct-damage spells are relatively less effective, meaning that enchantment, illusion, and transmutation spells are preferred by 3.5 Wizards. Does this fit in with the role I envision for Wizards in my campaign? If so, how can I make sure that players don't unintentionally select this suboptimal strategy? If not, what changes should I make to direct-damage spells to compensate for the degree to which they've been weakened?


Seriously,

Bump Polar Ray down to 3rd level where it belongs, make Ice Storm work like Flame Strike instead of it's current form where it does small amounts of unusually typed-damage and make a couple Metamagic Feats which increase spell Damage available and usable pre-10th level. (That means no more than a 1 level add for the metamagic)

Oh and make sure your players realize that Fireball is for taking out groups of monsters, not single tough monsters


[*] Death from Massive Damage. By default, characters in 3.5 have a chance of dying instantly when they suffer damage over a certain threshold. This is one of the most commonly houseruled parts of 3.5, but before changing it, have I considered what effects my changes will have? To what degree do "hit points" represent physical ability to withstand damage under my campaign conception, as opposed to representing luck, divine favor, near misses, etc.? Does my concept of hit points mesh with whatever variation of the DFMD rule I've chosen?


This is only rarely going to come up in a core-only 10th and under game. Basically DFMD means that Spirited Charge or full Buffed or Power Attack criticals will also be save-or-dies.


[*] Problematic Spells. A large number of spells in 3.5 have effects that are confusing, difficult to adjudicate, or often deemed undesirable for a campaign. Many of these spells won't appear in games below 10th level,


I strongly recommend using either my polymorph houserules (found Here or Rich Burlew's Link.) Everything else before 10th level you can live with, provided that you are aware of the abilities contained on the spell list - Don't run murder plots which are solved by a single casting of Detect Thoughts, don't have enemy warlords completely unprepared for Fly or Teleport, and for Ehlonna's sake, give the infanty some guard dogs who can Scent Invisible characters.

The other big problem with spells in a pre-10th level game is that a number of them are highly suboptimal. This can be fixed by recommending certain spells to the players of spellcasters.


[*] Economic Issues. The default D&D setting assumes that characters can transform money into power via purchase of magic items. Spellcasters have options that permit them to trade downtime for a half share of the money required for a particular item. This assumption has all kinds of bizarre effects on a campaign -- high-level characters have a strong motivation for eating gruel and wearing rags because these things have no game effect, while purchasing magic items does. To what degree should magic items be available for purchase or creation in my campaign?


In every game I have ever seen, allowing completely open purchase/creation of magic items never becomes a problem before 8th level.


[*] Powerful NPCs. The default D&D setting assumes that there are large amounts of high-level NPCs -- higher level than the campaign is intended to run -- in cities of significant size. What role do NPCs play in my campaign world? How widely distributed are NPCs of equal or superior ability to the PCs, throughout the planned duration of the campaign? How do I intend to handle interaction between such NPCs and the PCs?
[/list]


Personally, I tend to have one or two of these NPCs hire the PCs to perform certain quests that are either beneath them, or beneath the notice of their enemies at the start of the campaign. And as the PCs begin to make friends and enemies amongst the established powers of the setting, I invariably have some event trigger a massive fued between all the high-level NPCs in which they all kill each other off, leaving the PCs in charge of things and having to clean up the mess.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
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Re: Plain 3.5 - PHB+DMG+MM1?

Post by dbb »

With core only, Clerics are significantly less of a problem. There are still some things to watch out for.

Ease of Healing -- the less of a Cleric's spells he has to spend on healing, the more effective he gets. Placing a lot of healing potions, wands of cure light wounds, etc., as treasure will therefore increase the effectiveness of the cleric. Adventures that permit the players to retreat and rest with relatively little difficulty have the same effect.

Domains -- I would keep an eye out for deities that offer the War domain with a strong martial weapon; and for domains or domain combinations that offer a large number of Wizard spells on their lists. Not that either of these things is game-breaking, but they both represent improvements to the Cleric that make him more able to fill the roles of the Fighter or Wizard without costing him any effectiveness. If you've also made the fighting classes better, the need to look carefully at the former becomes less significant.

Buff Time -- most clerics need time to get their mojo up and running at low levels, especially in a core-only game. Groups with very good scouting and planning capabilities, and situations that allow the cleric to cast spells that make him better before combat begins, will tend to make them more effective. Running fights, pursuits, drawn-out fights, or other situations where combat time goes on for long enough that pre-cast buffs begin to run out will tend to make them less effective.

Puzzle Spells -- the mechanic of the Cleric having access to all Cleric spells of levels he is able to cast means that, if a group needs a particular spell, and it's on the Cleric list, the group can get the spell cast fairly easily. A game that has use for a lot of special-purpose spells not usually learned by Wizards and Sorcerers will tend to make this strength more obvious; a game where general-purpose spells are all one usually needs will make it much less important.

Buffing up evocation spells will also serve to make the cleric less good (although it may also help the Druid, depending on exactly what houserules you adopt), as core clerics generally don't have very good direct-damage spells until higher level.

--d.
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