short version of Mage the Ascension?

[Username17]

Stuff.

I don't even know what to answer, because you clearly speak about a version of MtA from some different dimension, where it doesn't have effects based on dice rolls, or, say, damage caps.

P.S. I cannot believe, that I actually try to defend MtA here.

Damage caps only apply to the direct effects of the magick, not to the secondary effects of them. Not even the inevitable ones. So for example if you use matter to make the floor slippery so that someone falls off the fucking roof, the falling damage they suffer is not influenced by your damage caps. If there is an opponent standing in a pool of gasoline and you pump a bit of forces into the gasoline to get it to flashpoint, the raging inferno that will spread from that isn't capped by damage caps. The damage caps just apply to to spark, not the ultimate fire.

Similarly, if you hurl someone into fucking space the fact that they are torn to pieces by void demons isn't capped by damage caps. And presumably, if you nitrogen freeze bomb the building, the explosive decompression is not influenced by damage caps. The damage caps only apply to the sharpness or whatever you impart to the solid nitrogen, not to the explosive decompression that s inflicted onto your solid nitrogen by the standard temperature and pressure it is suddenly surrounded by.

Mage gives out the damage caps with one hand, but straight up tells you to be creative with the scenery to exceed those. It just so happens that if you genuinely are a creative person, then "room temperature and one atmosphere of pressure" happens to be scenery that you can use to blow up a house.

-Username17

[FatR]

I mean, in Vampire the most newbie of vampires can assemble a literal army of blood-bonded special forces guys to demo elder vampires and their havens, and the most hardcore vampire can't survive a sniper bullet to the head or being hit with a car, both of which are wicked easy to set up (yay for Obfuscate countering Auspex!).

Uh, that's why the locations of havens are supposed to be secret and elders have better Discipline ratings that you can dream of, so their Auspex beats your Obfuscate without roll and so does their Obfuscate to your Auspex. (Seriously, "make an army of blood-slaves/showelheads" exploit was discussed to death everywhere ten years ago and it does not make you win. It can cause the fall of Masquerade, but that does not improve your survival chances.) Mind you, this can sucks, from players standpoint, because elders actually can treat their characters like shit and get away with it.

Also, in VtM there is approximately a ton of ways to make yourself immune to gunfire, or so tough that you're bulletproof for most practical purposes.

[FatR]

Damage caps only apply to the direct effects of the magick, not to the secondary effects of them.

And since when "hurling people - or whatever remains of them after burning in the atmosphere - into space" or "freezing shit out of people by things you transmute out of nowhere" (and so on) are not direct effects?

Anyway, this illustrates the main failing of MtA (as mentioned above): it produces such disagreements like no other game. It does not even make clear the extremely important border between coincidental and obvious effects (is doing something not-obviously-magical, but crazy improbable obvious? does the universe serve as a witness, or is everything you do when muggles can't see you coincidental?). Unless everyone at the table agrees on the same interpretation, the game will bog down in constant arguments.

[RandomCasualty2]

Mage gives out the damage caps with one hand, but straight up tells you to be creative with the scenery to exceed those. It just so happens that if you genuinely are a creative person, then "room temperature and one atmosphere of pressure" happens to be scenery that you can use to blow up a house.

Well, this is where you get into the "Only what your DM lets you get away with" area. Because seriously, your GM can call for anywhere from like 1 to 20 successes required to pull something off. So in some games, doing damage effects may well be better.

[souran]

All of the WoD systems break when a reasonably creative person hits them.

I mean, in Vampire the most newbie of vampires can assemble a literal army of blood-bonded special forces guys to demo elder vampires and their havens, and the most hardcore vampire can't survive a sniper bullet to the head or being hit with a car, both of which are wicked easy to set up (yay for Obfuscate countering Auspex!).

Mage just breaks right after character creation, while the others take up to two sessions before the core conceits of the game are violated.

Of course this breaks the game. However, I think you need to read the rulebooks.

Mage/Werewolf/Vampire owod/nwod ALL say that yes if you introduce a lot of the equipment of the modern military into the game its going to get to be unplayable.

They also say that character concepts like "special forces badass superkiller" while posible to make, Pretty much wreck the game. A better concept is "down and out fomer soldier possibly with PTSD"

Vampires werewolves and mages are not immune to rocket propelled grenades, sabot tank rounds, napalm or the high intensity blast wave of a nuclear weapon. Even without including those things, squad automatic weapons and other true machine guns can rip limbs off the human body and can turn people into bloody piles of goo.

I am not uber on vampire lore but if you rip giant holes in their chest cavity and sever their legs at the knee while they may not be dead they are probably reduced to a state where they no longer "function"

But again, WOD is not "world of tom clancy" and doing that will quickly change the game in ways that go down the broken train.

[Koumei]

It turns from "let's wave our arms about while talking about angst" into Hellsing (the animu). Which is awesome.

[Roy]

I fucking participated in such games (okay, these were crossover game, not pure Mage, but that's only makes the mechanics so much more of a clusterfuck). Seriously, I find this idea really insulting, because it assumes that all RPG players are either total morons, who cannot figure out a campaign's power level and existing consensus on what characters can do from a detailed description, or total assholes, who deliberately ignore them, because they want to be assholes, or something.

How many D&D 3.5 players think Fighters are equal in power to Wizards, and that making a party of Cleric/Fighter/Rogue/Wizard is the most balanced and useful party they could possibly make, just because the designers say so?

I wouldn't go so far as to say all are total morons, but spending 5 minutes at any D&D forum other than the Den (and about 15 at the Den) will reveal that yes they fucking are, for the most part.

No, D&D isn't the entirety of RPGs. But it is the biggest, so it's easiest to get a representative sample size from it.

The rest of that is all the standard failings of freeform, except in an actual ruleset because someone didn't get the memo that people can play Magical Tea Party and wank off to their monstrous psychopaths on their own, they don't need to purchase your products to do that.

[Ganbare Gincun]

But wait a second - isn't Paradox supposed to balance MtA?

/sarcasm

[Orion]

Souran,

If that were the case, shouldn't they have explained why the vamps of their setting don't use that stuff?

[FatR]

Mage/Werewolf/Vampire owod/nwod ALL say that yes if you introduce a lot of the equipment of the modern military into the game its going to get to be unplayable.

Accidentally, as far as oWoD is concerned, they are completely wrong (like they are wrong about stakes being worth using in actual combat with vamps, under their mechanics). Just try to fight optimized vamps/weres with modern weapons, as statted by WW, but don't come crying about their mediocre to piss-poor damage and lack of special properties to me, The only piece of modern military's equipment, given stats by WW, that really kicks ass, is white phosphorus grenade. And even it only kicks ass in the hands of grunts who zerg-rush PCs. (I might have missed something hidden in some supplements, but the general point still stands - modern weapons aren't that awesome.) Yeah, they didn't have stats for anti-vehicle or vehicle-grade weapons, but your rocket launchers aren't going to help much, when you need a direct hit on a fast human-sized target for any effect (otherwise it is no more powerful than a crappy grenade).

They also say that character concepts like "special forces badass superkiller" while posible to make, Pretty much wreck the game.

No. So, far, all but one of my WoD characters had Attack Stat + Weapon Skill of at least 8 (and it was 8 and not 10 only for characters to which combat supposedly was secondary, or for most down-to-earth games), which easily puts them at special forces level. No game has been wrecked by this. In fact, most GMs under whom I've played PbP games seemed to pretty much expect this. In my own games, I've allowed PCs with concepts like "crazy-prepared survival nut". Being a human-level badass superkiller (with a bunch of guns or not) is a good starting point for a powerful character, but only a good starting point. That's speaking of oWoD, of course.

[Koumei]

In oWoD, flare guns were kick-ass. They did a stupid amount of automatic Ag, plus net hits. Yes, I'm talking about those things you fire into the sky when stranded at see. I'm well aware they can be dangerous, but this puts them at "more dangerous than flamethrowers or guns with WP ammo."

[mean_liar]

Really? I seem to recall that low-caliber (non-exiting) tracer rounds carved with some 1-blood point Tremere ritual basically set a Vampire on fire from the inside-out better than a flare gun.

[Username17]

Really? I seem to recall that low-caliber (non-exiting) tracer rounds carved with some 1-blood point Tremere ritual basically set a Vampire on fire from the inside-out better than a flare gun.

Whether you can put a ward vs. kindred on a bullet is - believe it or not - unclear.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty2]

In oWoD, flare guns were kick-ass. They did a stupid amount of automatic Ag, plus net hits. Yes, I'm talking about those things you fire into the sky when stranded at see. I'm well aware they can be dangerous, but this puts them at "more dangerous than flamethrowers or guns with WP ammo."

Yeah, I always found that really silly. You could pretty much incinerate someone with a flare gun.

[tzor]

Yeah, I always found that really silly. You could pretty much incinerate someone with a flare gun.

Don't diss the humble flare gun.

We all came out to montreux
On the lake geneva shoreline
To make records with a mobile
We didnt have much time
Frank zappa and the mothers
Were at the best place around
But some stupid with a flare gun
Burned the place to the ground
Smoke on the water, fire in the sky