Ancient cultures' virginity fetishization.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:36 pm

What was up with that? Even giving an allowance cultural differences, it's still kind of creepy, going as far as Mohammad and the 9-year old wife thing.

Hicks · Post by **Hicks** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:39 pm

It goes back (date wise) a lot farther than that.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:47 pm

I meant that's how bad it got, not that's when it started.

Abrahamic religions in particular are pretty skeevy about this.

mean_liar · Post by **mean_liar** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:13 pm

I think most ancient cultures treated it as sacred, its just that familiarity with the Bible and current Muslim practices bring it closer.

Sex in general is considered to be a transformative event in people for some reason. The legend of Enkidu comes to mind immediately, but it shows up in the Bible with the fall from Grace and awareness of nakedness, with Athena, and especially with all the legends about virgin births resulting in astounding children.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:33 pm

It's a matter of knowing paternity. If you have a virgin wife, you can be fairly sure that her children will all be yours. That's a big deal, genetically, considering the average 10% rate of mistaken paternity--although the fact that it's usually the husband's brother alleviates some of the genetic pressure.

Old habits die hard.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:06 am

Also remember life expectancy rates of the past. People lived shorter lives so at one time girls at age 12 were married off to older men (20's), because life expectancy was a round 30 years.

One joke-ish way I heard it was, "Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed".

The sooner you get children, the better you will be at helping society or something.

As well the whole women being a possession of man, and you didn't want a used women. You wantd one with that new-car....new-horse smell.

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:26 pm

One other thing to consider. In some anchient cultures "Marriage" occured at the moment of official engagement. The period between the ceremony and the actual consumption of the marriage could be some time (months or even years). During this time the "bride" was still with the bride's family. You might say this was an example of the "trust but verify" philosophy.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:34 pm

Was that before or after dowries to the brides family?

I don't think you would pay for the bride before you got her, so before then right?

Also didn't the husband in some cultures move into the brides family home to help with things and be a burden on the father of the bride...which made today's system of the bride having to do the wedding ceremony and such?

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:03 pm

CatharzGodfoot wrote:It's a matter of knowing paternity. If you have a virgin wife, you can be fairly sure that her children will all be yours. That's a big deal, genetically, considering the average 10% rate of mistaken paternity--although the fact that it's usually the husband's brother alleviates some of the genetic pressure.

This is a big part of it, and the most practical, since succession wars are nobody's idea of a good time. Most of the rest is simply the patriarchal policy of controlling women's sexuality as part of the whole 'brutally dominate their lives' deal.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:36 pm

angelfromanotherpin wrote:Most of the rest is simply the patriarchal policy of controlling women's sexuality as part of the whole 'brutally dominate their lives' deal.

There is that...

A bit more on the paternity thing: In some cultures it was (is) known to be so common that marrying your father's brother's kid was taboo (although other cousins are fine) because of the high probability that they are your half-sibling. The taboo exists in cultures where the wife joins the husband's family (for obvious reasons). Presumably, if the husband joined the wife's family then the taboo would be marrying your mother's sister's child.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:38 pm

tzor wrote:the actual consumption of the marriage

Don't get me wrong, I know the food is the most important part of the wedding, but you'd eat a whole marriage? No wonder it takes so long.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:48 pm

No you save that for after the wedding.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:10 pm

Koumei wrote:
tzor wrote:the actual consumption of the marriage
Don't get me wrong, I know the food is the most important part of the wedding, but you'd eat a whole marriage? No wonder it takes so long.

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:31 pm

Koumei wrote:
tzor wrote:the actual consumption of the marriage
Don't get me wrong, I know the food is the most important part of the wedding, but you'd eat a whole marriage? No wonder it takes so long.

I knew I forgot something, let me fix that ...

tzor wrote:the actual consumption of the marriage cake

Some people keep their cake for years, decades even. Of course they keep only the leftovers.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:55 pm

Hum, I've never heard of that. Who'd want to hold a box of mummified cake?

I know in our family, it's common for the couple to take a bit of it on their honeymoon, but aside from that...

...Whoever is left behind to clean things up usually has to 'dispose' of the leftovers. Although they're usually designed not to have much. That'd be expensive.

-Crissa

Maj · Post by **Maj** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:07 am

tzor wrote:Some people keep their cake for years, decades even. Of course they keep only the leftovers.

We made so much food for my wedding that we took the extra home and froze it. We didn't have it for years, though, and we had no cake leftover at all.

CryptoSolipsist · Post by **CryptoSolipsist** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:32 am

tzor wrote:Some people keep their cake for years, decades even. Of course they keep only the leftovers.

My sister-in-law decided to perform this little ritual, and kept a slice of wedding cake in her freezer for a whole year, then busted it out for their anniversary. My brother and her both agreed that it tasted awful, and threw it away after one bite. What a dumb tradition.

erik · Post by **erik** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:35 am

My preserved wedding cake was good 1 year later.

[edit: preserved in this case being frozen, wrapped in aluminum foil]

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:51 am

Preserved cake usually means 'soaked in syrup or spirits'.

-Crissa

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:36 pm

clikml wrote:My preserved wedding cake was good 1 year later.

We froze ours and it was great one year later. We wished we'd saved more!

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:18 pm

Barring cooties....

The whole virgin thing is probbably about the depreciating value of vagina vs. penis.
The more a male swings his sword the more proliffic he becomes with it.
Whereas the vagina, it is generally though (and shown if you watch porn) become less useful "for enjoyment" with each use.

Add to that Paternity, and the fact that women only can physically bear so many children whereas men can generally speaking repopulate a nation given enough sqaws. . .
Getting there "first" = "best" like most things in life.

Maj · Post by **Maj** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:33 am

CS wrote:My sister-in-law decided to perform this little ritual, and kept a slice of wedding cake in her freezer for a whole year, then busted it out for their anniversary. My brother and her both agreed that it tasted awful, and threw it away after one bite. What a dumb tradition.

RP wrote:We froze ours and it was great one year later. We wished we'd saved more!

I have found that with the rare exception, wedding cakes taste good because you're getting married, not because they actually taste good (so if your cake tasted good, hooray!). We baked our cake (devil's food cake castle with angel food "clouds") with little fortune charms in it. The cake was largely gone because people kept looking for the charms. I have no idea how the cake actually tasted - I don't recall even eating it.

Vnonymous · Post by **Vnonymous** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:33 pm

CatharzGodfoot wrote:It's a matter of knowing paternity. If you have a virgin wife, you can be fairly sure that her children will all be yours. That's a big deal, genetically, considering the average 10% rate of mistaken paternity--although the fact that it's usually the husband's brother alleviates some of the genetic pressure.

Old habits die hard.