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[Class] Dread Necromancer

 
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Hicks
Duke


Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 1139
Location: Blytheville, AR

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:07 pm    Post subject: [Class] Dread Necromancer Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Dread Necromancer
“Why, yes milady, you are rather beautiful. I am afraid, however, that that is not why I want your body.”

Playing a Dread Necromancer: Contrary to what many believe, Death is not an agent of evil. Often it is an agent of mercy for the sick, or an agent of change for the old. A Dread Necromancer is neither of those things. He is an agent of suffering and affliction, an agent of permanency and rot. He is not an agent of Death, but of Unlife. Cursing his mortal frame for its weakness, he seeks the twisted power of that which dies but is not dead, preferring an eternity of decay to the finality of Death, and as he masters the dark arts, he will achieve his end.
Alignment: Although Necromancy is not generally an evil thing, it is even less a good thing. A Dread Necromancer can be any alignment, but don't expect orphanages to welcome you to their bake sales.
Races: Dread Necromancers appear in all races, but Humans make up the majority of those out in the world.
Starting Gold: 3d6x10 gp (105 gold)
Starting Age: As Sorcerer.
Hit Die: d12.
BAB: Average
Fort: Good
Ref: Poor
Will: Good

Class Skills:
The Dread Necromancer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Concentration (Con), Decipher Script (Int), Disguise (Cha), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (any) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

    Level and Special Abilities
    1 Body Assemblage, Practiced Caster, Rebuke Undead, Spell Casting, Touch of Death
    2 Unholy Toughness
    3 Dead Inside
    4 -
    5 Undead Creation Feat
    6 -
    7 Undead Mastery
    8 -
    9 Undead Creation Feat
    10 -
    11 Phylactery
    12 -
    13 Undead Creation Feat
    14 -
    15 Aura of Malevolence
    16 -
    17 Undead Creation Feat
    18 -
    19 Abomination
    20 Without Number

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Dread Necromancer.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Dread Necromancer is proficient with all simple weapons, his Death Touch, and 1 martial weapon of his choice; he is not proficient with any armor or shield.

Body Assemblage (Ex): At first level, a Dread Necromancer receives the Body Assemblage necromantic creation feat as a bonus feat.

Practiced Caster (Ex): Due to the extreme specialization of a Dread Necromancer’s craft, he never suffer any arcane spell failure while wearing an armor or shield he is proficient with.

Rebuke Undead (Su): A Dread Necromancer may Rebuke Undead as a Cleric of equal level 3 + his Charisma Modifier (if positive) times per day.

Spell Casting: A Dread Necromancer is an arcane caster whose spell list is every spell from the Necromancy school on the Cleric, Druid, and Wizard spell list in the players handbook. A spell appearing on multiple spell lists with a different spell level is considered to be the lowest level available on the Dread Necromancer’s spell list, which is provided for your convenience below. His caster level is equal to his class level. A Dread Necromancer knows all spells on his spell list (as a Cleric), and may cast them spontaneously a number of times per day as a Sorcerer of equal level, except that a dread necromancer has no 0 level spell slots. A Dread Necromancer must have a Charisma Score of at least 10 + the spell’s level to cast a spell of that level. The DC of a Dread Necromancer spell you cast is 10 + the spell’s level + his Charisma Modifier. At first level and each level thereafter, he may permanently add one Cleric, Druid, or Wizard spell with a spell level equal to or less than the highest he may cast from any school to his spell list. At 5th level and every odd level thereafter, he may switch out one spell he knows for another Cleric, Druid, or Wizard spell of the same spell level

Touch of Death (Su): Anytime a Dread Necromancer makes a melee attack, he may do an additional 1d6 per class level of negative energy damage in addition to whatever else he does. He may also just do the negative energy damage as a melee touch attack as an attack action.

Unholy Toughness (Ex): At second level, a Dread Necromancer may substitute their Charisma Modifier for Fortitude Saves, Concentration Checks, and bonus HP per hit die. Additionally you gain DR/Magic equal to their character level that stacks with any other sources of DR you possess.

Dead Inside (Ex): At third level, the Dread Necromancer’s creature type changes to Undead (if it was not already), and gains the [dark minded] and [augmented *whatever previous creature type he was*] subtypes. He also gets +4 Turn Resistance, happy Deathday.

Undead Creation Feat (Ex): At fifth, ninth, thirteenth, and seventeenth level, a Dread Necromancer receives a necromantic creation feat as a bonus feat. He must still meet all prerequisites for these bonus feats, which are granted in addition to the feats that a character of any class gets from advancing levels.

Undead Mastery (Ex): At seventh level, a Dread Necromancer’s Charisma Modifier is added to the number of Hit Dice He may have animated (now 4 + his Charisma Modifier per level) or controlled through Rebuking (now 2 + his Charisma Modifier per level) at one time. Additionally, any undead he creates gain DR/Magic equal to their Hit dice, receive a +1 enchantment bonus to all their ability scores per 3 character levels of the Dread Necromancer, and a number of additional HP equal to that granted by the Unholy Toughness of the Dread Necromancer for no reason. The bonus HP granted by Undead Mastery does not stack with that granted by the Unholy Toughness special quality an undead already possess.

Phylactery (Ex): At 11th level, a Dread necromancer creates and stores his soul within a Phylactery, and unless it is destroyed, a Dread Necromancer is never slain when his body is destroyed. Instead, the body re-appears 1d10 days later where the phylactery was located with the phylactery around its neck. The Phylactery is a diminutive object with a Hardness equal to the DR Dread Necromancer possess, and has a number of hit points equal to his hit point total. If the Phylactery is destroyed, he are also slain, and goes on to the afterlife he deserves. His Phylactery counts against his 8 magic item limit. Additionally, he gains DR/Bludgeoning equal to his character level that stacks with any other sources of DR he possess.

Aura of Malevolence (Su): Just in case nobody figured it out already, a Dread Necromancer is more scary than a dark alley in a dark alley. At fifteenth level, at the beginning of any creature’s turn who is within medium range of the Dread Necromancer (100 ft. + 10 ft. for each character level he possess) and not considered an ally by him must make a Will Save (DC 10 + half the your character level + the your Charisma Modifier) or be Shaken for a number of rounds equal to the Dread Necromancer's Charisma Modifier.

Abomination (Su): Really, you should have seen this coming. At nineteenth level, A Dread Necromancer becomes so abhorrent to creation that it partially shunts him from existence. He gain the Incorporeal Subtype. It takes an act of will to manifest physically as a corporeal creature, and requires a move action on his part to do so for a number of rounds equal to his Charisma Modifier. Also, he gains DR/Good equal to his character level that stacks with any other sources of DR he possess.

Without Number (Ex): At twentieth level, a Dread Necromancer becomes an Aspected Necromantic Intelligence, which radiates out from his body a number of miles equal to his Charisma Modifier. You may change his Aspect as an Immediate Action to any Undead whose CR is equal to his character level or less; and no, you can’t aspect Slay Mates. He may see and hear as if he were standing where any undead created by the Intelligence is (using his spot and listen modifiers, as well as any perceptive abilities he possess). The Dread Necromancer’s Phylactery is considered the Focus of the Necromantic Intelligence.

Dread Necromancer Spell List
    Spell Level: spells
    1: cause fear, chill touch, curse water, death watch, doom, inflict light wounds, ray of enfeeblement

    2: blindness/deafness, command undead, death knell, false life, gentle repose, ghoul touch, inflict moderate wounds, scare, spectral hand

    3: animate dead, contagion, halt undead, inflict serious wounds, poison, ray of exhaustion, speak with dead, vampiric touch

    4: blight, death ward, enervation, fear, inflict critical wounds

    5: mass inflict light wounds, magic jar, mark of justice, slay living, symbol of pain, waves of fatigue

    6: circle of death, create undead, eyebite, harm, mass inflict moderate wounds, symbol of fear, undeath to death

    7: control undead, finger of death, mass inflict serious wounds, symbol of weakness, waves of exhaustion

    8: clone, create greater undead, horrid wilting, mass inflict critical wounds, symbol of death

    9: astral projection, energy drain, soul bind, wail of the banshee


Last edited by Hicks on Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:20 am; edited 25 times in total
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Bigode
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Fvck the alignment restriction if it doesn't have a code of conduct - unless all negative energy itself's evil, as per ToF. Given that this class doesn't have the same end result as the official dread necromancer, or even similar, it might use a different name. BTW, did you find the original to have some problem (the closest to one I remember mentioned by anyone's the lots of undead, which you're specifically keeping)? Hide, Move Silently and UMD on a full spellcaster? Yeah, I don't need anyone to tell me "the beguiler has it" - but you shouldn't need anyone to tell you "the beguiler's too awesome" - anyway it's not even mainly a power complaint; it's that this one's (unlike, say, the rogue) a class with lots of built-in options, so I don't even think the ability to dumpster-dive's desirable (if there's some foes it'd be useless against without UMD, I'd suggest considering other solutions). As per Dungeonomicon, cleric casting's dead - at best you'd have all core necromancy spells (yeah, I'm sure official D&D 3.x isn't expanding any time soon, but homebrew didn't stop accumulating).
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Hicks
Duke


Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 1139
Location: Blytheville, AR

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The goal of this re-write was to create a transformative class that turns you into an Unliving Tank while letting you have an army of the dead.

Bigode wrote:
Fvck the alignment restriction if it doesn't have a code of conduct - unless all negative energy itself's evil, as per ToF.


Well, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't presupposing a Tome game. Why the restriction on Good? Because of spells like contagion, bestow curse, enervation, create undead, wrack, and eternity of torment; spells specifically designed to cause suffering. Not spells to control or kill you, but to make you suffer. And because I like arguments that start with "If I save baby kobolds..."

It is also worth noting that nothing bad happens if you turn good, just that you can't start good. To be honest, I'd rather have my TN cleric of Nerull, but whatever.

Quote:
Given that this class doesn't have the same end result as the official dread necromancer, or even similar, it might use a different name. BTW, did you find the original to have some problem (the closest to one I remember mentioned by anyone's the lots of undead, which you're specifically keeping)?


The end result of the original "Dread Necromancer" is found at levels 3 for becoming undead and level 11 for gaining a phylactery in this re-write. The problem I had with the original was that the class was 8 levels long, and I wanted 20. Hell, being Undead in a tome game is a +0 LA template away (as all templates should be).

Undead are not a problem. TEH SKELETORZ HOERD caps out at CR 8. There is no amount of CR 8 creatures that will make a character of level 13+ care. It's like the 2nd edition's Fighter's Army. You have it, it does things, and dies horribly in the first level appropriate encounter because they are nothing but a wall of stone that moves, and can either be bypassed or out and out slain with a holy word.

But since I am presupposing a Tome game, lets see who has access to unlimited undead:

    1. Anyone who has the Whispers of the Otherworld feat and is 5th level
    2. Anyone who can command/create a morhg
    3. Anyone who can awaken undead a skeleton hellwasp swarm
    4. Anyone with at least the Bone sphere and at most 9th level
    5. Anyone with the Enervating Touch and Control Spawn feat
    6. Lurker in the Swarm
    7. A Speaker for the Dead
    8. A Death Knight
    9. A Vampire Paragon (non-capped spawn control)
    10. A Lord of the Damned

Quote:
Hide, Move Silently and UMD on a full spellcaster?


Yup, although I'm not married to UMD, It is a Charisma based class that has Sorcerer delayed spell access. It does have a lot of options, probably more than you think... I'll need more feedback before it gets chopped

Quote:
As per Dungeonomicon, cleric casting's dead - at best you'd have all core necromancy spells (yeah, I'm sure official D&D 3.x isn't expanding any time soon, but homebrew didn't stop accumulating).


But that is not what was written. It was: every Necromancy spell on the Cleric, Druid, and Wizard spell list. Not their spells known. Every necromancy spell allowed by the DM is on the Dread Necromancer's spell list, and he knows that list like a Cleric knows the core Cleric spell list.

The kicker is that Necromancy is not enough. Greater dispel magic, evard's black tentacles, web, acid fog... all cool spells that we want a necromancer to cast, are not on the Dread Necromancer's spell list. To fix that you get 1 cool spell per level that you get to choose from the Cleric/Druid/Wizard list. Divine power? Giant vermin? Sleep? One cool spell per level of advancement of your choice.

At 5th and every odd level after that, swap out one of those spells that isn't pulling its weight anymore. Pick up deep slumber and exchange sleep for identify or whatever.

Yah.... I'll cut the UMD.


Last edited by Hicks on Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Quantumboost
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Joined: 07 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hicks wrote:
The goal of this re-write was to create a transformative class that turns you into an Unliving Tank while letting you have an army of the dead.

Bigode wrote:
Fvck the alignment restriction if it doesn't have a code of conduct - unless all negative energy itself's evil, as per ToF.


Well, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't presupposing a Tome game. Why the restriction on Good? Because of spells like contagion, bestow curse, enervation, create undead, wrack, and eternity of torment; spells specifically designed to cause suffering. Not spells to control or kill you, but to make you suffer. And because I like arguments that start with "If I save baby kobolds..."


I'm assuming you're using Playing With Fire, since this class is obviously evil under The Crawling Darkness.

Except for spells that actually have the [Evil] tag (i.e. create undead), a wizard or cleric can prepare - and cast - any of the Necromancy spells that happen to be on their class spell list any number of times and still be Good.

Enervation is arguably further from "cause suffering without killing you" than fireball. There's nothing to measure the "suffering" caused by negative levels or the "suffering" caused by hit point loss, and so any statement that one causes more suffering than the other is a completely arbitrary decision (since most of us would be unlikely to survive either). Enervation can weaken someone or turn them into a Wight. Fireball can cause 3rd degree burns or ignite an orphanage.

Bestow curse is no more evil than touch of idiocy.

Spell list aside, the abilities this class gives are either (a) channeling negative energy or (b) becoming or making undead. Neither of which are inherently evil.

Nothing this class involves you actually doing is any more evil than what an LG necromancer-wizard does normally. A 10-level Dread Necromancer can cast hundreds of non-evil Necromancy spells, take Wrappings of the Ages and Whispers of the Otherworld as Creation feats (neither of which create always-Evil undead), never do a single evil thing in their life, and do plenty of good things - without being any less effective as a Dread Necromancer (i.e. using all their class features).

The alignment restriction is actually completely arbitrary.
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Hicks
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Really, I had this reply where I linked enervation to wights to the part in the Tome of Necromancy where create undead stays an [evil] spell because it creates soul sucking monsters whose only purpose is to kill and release a plague of undeath on the countryside...

... Then I realized that I really didn't care to have an alignment arguement, of all things. Alignment arguements, like the special olympics, where even if you win, you're all still "special".

Consequently, I agree with you completly. The alignment restriction is actually completely arbitrary. Just like the rest of the class. Every ability, arbitrarily written. Every word, arbitrarily typed. Hell, when you get right down to it, Hicks is rather arbitrary too; why not Niel, or Zachariah? Zachariah Kane! Now that is a badass name you could be proud of having, but I digress.

The point is, now that we reconize that an arbitrary distinction has been made, so what? Nothing stops you from writing "Blue" on the line where it says "Alignment" on your character sheet. You could even write "Law" or "Chaos" and it would hold the same weight as if you had written "Chartreuse". So.. do you have an actual mechanical concern, or do you just want yet another pointless alignment arguement?
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I've always thought the Dread Necromancer type shift to Undead was pretty weird. As you noted while making this class you can change your type to Undead much faster by just doing it to yourself in any of a number of ways long before you got anywhere with the official class - but at the same time, not everyone wants to be an undead necromancer. I think there's really place in the world for a dedicated necromancer who happens to be alive.

So I would actually much rather see the Tomb Tainted Soul and infinite healing of the class grandfathered in to the very first level and made explicit, and then leave it up to each individual player whether they personally want to go all skull head or not. Once you're healed by negative energy and damaged by positive energy it doesn't really matter whether you actually have the undead type or not save for personal coolness value.

As is, all that really happens at 3rd level is that you are confronted by the fact that many 1st level Sun Clerics can automatically kill your ass once a day with no save. Being a low level undead with no Turn Resistance really makes the weirdness of the turning rules come out and play.




While we're at it, you shouldn't have Touch of Death be Spell Like unless you want them to have to make Concentration checks to avoid provoking AoOs. It should just be Su, like the original ability that it is based on. While you're at it though, any reason why the current version is so much bigger than Sneak Attack? Looks like you're really trying to get people to get boot blades and spell stored divine power.

-Frank
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Bigode
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hicks wrote:
The end result of the original "Dread Necromancer" is found at levels 3 for becoming undead and level 11 for gaining a phylactery in this re-write. The problem I had with the original was that the class was 8 levels long, and I wanted 20. Hell, being Undead in a tome game is a +0 LA template away (as all templates should be).
Heh, fair enough.

Hicks wrote:
Undead are not a problem. TEH SKELETORZ HOERD caps out at CR 8. There is no amount of CR 8 creatures that will make a character of level 13+ care. It's like the 2nd edition's Fighter's Army. You have it, it does things, and dies horribly in the first level appropriate encounter because they are nothing but a wall of stone that moves, and can either be bypassed or out and out slain with a holy word.
While I actually doubt that in the specific case of levels 8 vs. 13, I wasn't telling you to change that, just asking what it was that you actually wanted to.

Hicks wrote:
But that is not what was written. It was: every Necromancy spell on the Cleric, Druid, and Wizard spell list. Not their spells known. Every necromancy spell allowed by the DM is on the Dread Necromancer's spell list, and he knows that list like a Cleric knows the core Cleric spell list.
And I'm telling you that the cleric model was dead since Dungeonomicon, since clerics started having/being able to expand their lists like wizards. And I find it somewhat tragic that necromancers don't watch out for learning new necromancy. Hence, you might try "knows all core necromancy spells, learns 1/level", or learns from spellbooks/scrolls, or something like that.

Hicks wrote:
The point is, now that we reconize that an arbitrary distinction has been made, so what? Nothing stops you from writing "Blue" on the line where it says "Alignment" on your character sheet. You could even write "Law" or "Chaos" and it would hold the same weight as if you had written "Chartreuse". So.. do you have an actual mechanical concern, or do you just want yet another pointless alignment arguement?
I, personally, want you to stop being retarded and remove the restriction - feel free to say most of them are evil because they don't hug trees or puppies. BTW, isn't your argument here - you can write whatever you want - a case of Oberoni?
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Hicks
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Bigode wrote:
feel free to say most of them are evil because they don't hug trees or puppies. BTW, isn't your argument here - you can write whatever you want - a case of Oberoni?


That... is an acceptable compromise. Truthfully, you get bonus points for not actually accusing me, but instead asking my opinion; very kind of you.

FrankTrollman wrote:

As is, all that really happens at 3rd level is that you are confronted by the fact that many 1st level Sun Clerics can automatically kill your ass once a day with no save. Being a low level undead with no Turn Resistance really makes the weirdness of the turning rules come out and play.


That is not unforeseen as a cleric of Pelor specifically has the right weapon ((Align Weapon: Good) Magic Mace of Disruption) and more often than not the right domain (sun). So, what to do about it? There is either a blanket immunity to turn checks (Which is retarded), or... (1 (lvl) + 2 (cha) + 4 (max mod)) +4 turn resistance? What should be the percentage of a character just dying? As alternative he could radiate a constant desecrate effect, counting his body as the alter to a dark god; a -6 to all turning checks really slows down the holy rollers. Of course, there would be a clause that said effect would not interfere with his rebuking at all.

Quote:
While we're at it, you shouldn't have Touch of Death be Spell Like unless you want them to have to make Concentration checks to avoid provoking AoOs. It should just be Su, like the original ability that it is based on. While you're at it though, any reason why the current version is so much bigger than Sneak Attack?


The original idea behind it was that anybody killed by your touch of death was turned into an undead under you control (using up one of the character’s necromantic creation feat undead controlled slot), and I always wanted it to synergize with the bone sphere... The reason it is so big is that I was using the Fire Mage as a model here, only you have to get in melee to use it. And the part where it heals all your meat shields out of combat (or in combat, although you have better things to do than heal 1d6 damage to a skeleton/zombie at 1st level). To be honest, I'd say it should stay: It has enough drawbacks as it is while still being good in a pinch; just can't use it around anyone with Mage Slayer, they will murder you in the face.

Quote:
Looks like you're really trying to get people to get boot blades and spell stored divine power.

-Frank


No, Im trying to get the Dread Necromancer to pick up divine power on his spell list at 7th level, which has to contend with giant vermin, black tentacles, solid fog, and phantasmal killer

edit: Rolling concentration checks you are never going to fail is a pain in the ass. Changed "Touch of Death" to (Su). Also, the grandfathered "Tomb Tainted Soul" is already present in the tomes you wrote, just be Moil Wraught.


Last edited by Hicks on Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:08 am; edited 2 times in total
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Bigode
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hicks wrote:
That... is an acceptable compromise. Truthfully, you get bonus points for not actually accusing me, but instead asking my opinion; very kind of you.
No, you get bonus points for saying that in reply to me saying "I want you to stop being retarded". Man, gotta love this place.

Hicks wrote:
That is not unforeseen as a cleric of Pelor specifically has the right weapon ((Align Weapon: Good) Magic Mace of Disruption) and more often than not the right domain (sun). So, what to do about it? There is either a blanket immunity to turn checks (Which is retarded), or... (1 (lvl) + 2 (cha) + 4 (max mod)) +4 turn resistance? What should be the percentage of a character just dying? As alternative he could radiate a constant desecrate effect, counting his body as the alter to a dark god; a -6 to all turning checks really slows down the holy rollers. Of course, there would be a clause that said effect would not interfere with his rebuking at all.
He's saying he ... doesn't want the class to turn you into an undead at all, so that'd solve itself. And, in a game where becoming undead's easy as in Tome, I'd agree with there being a place for some of the very best necromancers not wanting to actually haunt the world. What I'm wondering's that the NI transformation's really awesome - so, would it be anti-thematic for it to be achieved by someone still alive (not that I'm assuming you'll remove the type change, just wondering if it could be done at all without other changes)?

Hicks wrote:
The original idea behind it was that anybody killed by your touch of death was turned into an undead under you control (using up one of the character’s necromantic creation feat undead controlled slot), and I always wanted it to synergize with the bone sphere... The reason it is so big is that I was using the Fire Mage as a model here, only you have to get in melee to use it. And the part where it heals all your meat shields out of combat (or in combat, although you have better things to do than heal 1d6 damage to a skeleton/zombie at 1st level). To be honest, I'd say it should stay: It has enough drawbacks as it is while still being good in a pinch; just can't use it around anyone with Mage Slayer, they will murder you in the face.
I think an important part of the difference's that the fire mage's stuff doesn't allow TWFing and doesn't stack with your normal sources of damage, while yours very explicitly does both, so it gets way better than a rogue (the one who normally does it at short range, and is worse defensively in at least a significant part of cases). That said, you do give me a good question ...

Hicks wrote:
edit: Rolling concentration checks you are never going to fail is a pain in the ass. Changed "Touch of Death" to (Su). Also, the grandfathered "Tomb Tainted Soul" is already present in the tomes you wrote, just be Moil Wraught.
Win. But the problem's that the bone sphere was actually a pretty good reason for it being Sp. Sad
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Hicks
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Bigode wrote:
No, you get bonus points for saying that in reply to me saying "I want you to stop being retarded". Man, gotta love this place.


My apologies, you misunderstand me: I was referring to the diplomatic way you inquired of the Oberoni fallacy, not of you calling me retard. The internet is vague that way; I was, and still am, trying to pay you a complement. The "retard" bit? Rolled of me as milk/oil/acid/water off a ducks' back.

Quote:
He's saying he ... doesn't want the class to turn you into an undead at all, so that'd solve itself. And, in a game where becoming undead's easy as in Tome, I'd agree with there being a place for some of the very best necromancers not wanting to actually haunt the world.


I am aware. I am also aware that you could just be a regular old Necromancer by being a specialist Wizard, or by being a Cleric of, at best, neutral alignment. BAM! non-dead necromancer with a more versatile spell list, and get spells earlier to boot.

Quote:
What I'm wondering's that the NI transformation's really awesome - so, would it be anti-thematic for it to be achieved by someone still alive (not that I'm assuming you'll remove the type change, just wondering if it could be done at all without other changes)?


Maybe, maybe not. But I like it, and that’s why I wrote it. There is probably a convoluted progression that could be written to grant one all the perks of being undead, without actually being undead; but for reasons of my own devising ('cuz I thought it was cool), It was written thus:

    1. Grant a moil wrought individual infinite healing, and base their hit die off their future transformation into an undead (so they do not have top re-roll hp).

    2. Move pretty much everything that was run off of Constitution to Charisma

    3. Gain all the Immunities of the Undead type, and immortality.

    7. Grant an actual army of the dead

    11. Gain a mulligan if you Fvck up an adventure.

    15. Bullshit fear arua for no reason on a dead level.

    19. Grant the Incorporeal subtype, for coolness mostly in this otherwise dead level.

    20. Uncap all* undead control/creation limits.

    *excluding Slay Mates and epic undead

Quote:
I think an important part of the difference's that the fire mage's stuff doesn't allow TWFing and doesn't stack with your normal sources of damage


Whether or not it was intended so, my group plays that since using the Fire Mage's Fire Bolts is an attack action with a "weapon like spell (like ability)", you can do an off hand attack with them, and gain the full benifits of TWF, Blitz, Point Blank Shot, and Sniper, just as you would get if you had selected Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, PBS, or Imp. Precise Shot feats for a Complete Arcane Warlock out of the the PHB, or just as those all apply if a rogue had thrown acid/alchemist fire/cold fire/your mom vials.

Quote:
Win. But the problem's that the bone sphere was actually a pretty good reason for it being Sp. Sad


I know. You either gotta roll a concentration check you will never fail, ever, every time you attack, wasting everybody's time, or there is no cool synergy; which was why originally even though it was (Sp), it arbitrailary did not provoke an AoO. What's it gonna be?


Last edited by Hicks on Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:15 am; edited 3 times in total
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Roog
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hicks wrote:
I know. You either gotta roll a concentration check you will never fail, ever, every time you attack, wasting everybody's time, or there is no cool synergy; which was why originally even though it was (Sp), it arbitrailary did not provoke an AoO. What's it gonna be?


Take 1?
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Bigode
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hicks wrote:
My apologies, you misunderstand me: I was referring to the diplomatic way you inquired of the Oberoni fallacy, not of you calling me retard. The internet is vague that way; I was, and still am, trying to pay you a complement. The "retard" bit? Rolled of me as milk/oil/acid/water off a ducks' back.
I know. Consider the compliment returned for the last part.

Hicks wrote:
I am aware. I am also aware that you could just be a regular old Necromancer by being a specialist Wizard, or by being a Cleric of, at best, neutral alignment. BAM! non-dead necromancer with a more versatile spell list, and get spells earlier to boot.
Non-dead non-dedicated necromancer. Not really trying to make you change anything, though.

Hicks wrote:
Whether or not it was intended so, my group plays that since using the Fire Mage's Fire Bolts is an attack action with a "weapon like spell (like ability)", you can do an off hand attack with them, and gain the full benifits of TWF, Blitz, Point Blank Shot, and Sniper, just as you would get if you had selected Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, PBS, or Imp. Precise Shot feats for a Complete Arcane Warlock out of the the PHB, or just as those all apply if a rogue had thrown acid/alchemist fire/cold fire/your mom vials.
No, I mean that yours stacks with everything you might be able to pile on "a melee attack".

Hicks wrote:
I know. You either gotta roll a concentration check you will never fail, ever, every time you attack, wasting everybody's time, or there is no cool synergy; which was why originally even though it was (Sp), it arbitrailary did not provoke an AoO. What's it gonna be?
I'm afraid another voice'd be needed.

Is the "Spell Level: spells" line needed? Also, what about being able to learn written necromancies for free, to go a bit closer to your original idea (not to say I personally prefer it)?
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Hicks
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

WHOOO-FVCKN'-HOOOO! Fixed it!

Also added how to determine caster level, and the concentration and spellcraft skills. Added the [dark minded] subtype when when the Dread NEcromancer becomes Dead Inside.


Last edited by Hicks on Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:21 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Bigode wrote:
No, I mean that yours stacks with everything you might be able to pile on "a melee attack".


Last night, my girlfriend and I playtested the Dread Necromancer from level 1 to 4, in a lineraly generated random dungeon out of the DMG. She battled:

    a CR 3 pit trap
    1 stirge: Drank 2 CON, then exploded. Would have happened sooner, but a touch AC of ~15 is brutal to a 1st level PC.

    1 iron door (stuck, dc 30), needed the lizardfolk in the next room to help open this door.

    3 lizard folk: animated them as zombies
    a CR1 fullsillad of darts

    5 fiendish dire rats: made every save vs. disease, took 5 rounds

    1 shocker lizard

    a CR 3 fire trap

    1 Allip: compleatly ineffective, as she just hit level 3, and made her save vs Babble.

    3 Troglodyte Zombies: these took 10 rounds to kill

    a CR 2 pit trap

    1 Gargoyle in a 10'x10' CR 4 water filled room trap: This would have fvcked her up, as her Zombies couldnt get past DR 10/magic, but she never entered the room. 5 rounds later the room floods, and the gargoyle drowns.

    1 Giant Preying Mantis: curb stomped



So far the damage is not out of line with character expectations, and was compleatly worthless against the Zombie Trogs. The deal is that a Fire Bolt has Two Weapon Fighting, Blitz, Point Blank Shot, Sniper, Impress Flames and a Ranged Touch Attack going for him. A Dread Necromancer's Touch of Death has Base Weapon Damage plus Enchantment Damage, Power Attack, Two Weapon Fighting, Blitz, Combat School, Whirlwind, Horde Breaker, and maybe Insightful Strike.

A Feytouched Drow Firemage 15, Truefiend 5 attack routine is
4 BAB attacks+ 4 off hand attacks + 1 haste for:
(20d6 Fire Bolt +(15+4+5+7+5 Charisma) 13 + 16 blitz + 16 PBS) x 3 Sniper (auto crit, and PHB Improved Critical)
Average of 345 fire damage for 9 touch attacks per full attack

A Feytouched Aasimar Dread Necromancer (my girlfriend's Character, ignoring her "child necromancer") attack routine is
3 BAB attacks+ 3 off hand attacks + 1 haste for:
(20d6 Touch of Death + 30 full power attack + ((14+5+7 Strength) 8x1.5) 12 + 15 blitz + 2d4 scythe + 7 enchantment, + 2 Combat School)
Average of 131 slashing/piercing and negetive energy damage for 7 melee attacks per full attack, 19-20/x7 (917 on a Comfirmed Critical)

Quote:
Is the "Spell Level: spells" line needed? Also, what about being able to learn written necromancies for free, to go a bit closer to your original idea (not to say I personally prefer it)?


No, that line is probabbly not needed but it is there for the complete newbies that do need it. They aready get to select any 1 spell per character level form the Cleric/Druid/Wizard list and swith out another spell of a lower level every odd level starting at level 5. That's a lot of "rounding out" of their spell list, not to mention the Attune Domanin, Attune Sphere, Devil Preperation, Heavenly Desserts, Mother Cyst, and Blood Painter feats. Speaking of Blood Painter, where the hell is ther a spell with a [blood] component?


Last edited by Hicks on Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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the_unthinkable
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Anything esle to report on this? I kinda like this class.
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Hicks
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I did a test run through level 3 on November 30th, seemed good. Try it out for yourself, you'll see it's a suprisingly rounded class. And I always love it battle reports and excerpts from actual play.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So this class is meant as a complete replacement for Sorcerers/Beguilers/Any casting class right?

Because right now you have a class that picks the 3 best Wizard spells of every level and take Attune Domain/Sphere with every feat, and then casts spontaneously off of like 7-10 of the best spells of every level while also having more HP, Armor, higher fort saves (while being immune to fort saves that don't effect objects), and getting a free giant army, and also having an ability that makes rogues cry because they don't do enough damage.

It's basically a Tome Beguiler, but with 3 spells for free of every level off the Wizard list before spending a single feat on attuning spheres and domains.
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Hicks
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kaelik wrote:
Because right now you have a class that picks the 3 best Wizard spells of every level...


How are you getting 3 best spells of ever spell level?

The Dread Necromancer gets 3 bonus first level spells known, and 2 bonus spells known every other spell level, and 3 bonus ninth level spells known.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hicks wrote:
Kaelik wrote:
Because right now you have a class that picks the 3 best Wizard spells of every level...


How are you getting 3 best spells of ever spell level?

The Dread Necromancer gets 3 bonus first level spells known, and 2 bonus spells known every other spell level, and 3 bonus ninth level spells known.


At first level and each level thereafter, he may permanently add one Cleric, Druid, or Wizard spell with a spell level equal to or less than the highest he may cast from any school to his spell list. At 5th level and every odd level thereafter, he may switch out one spell he knows for another Cleric, Druid, or Wizard spell of the same spell level

Technically, for his second level spells he only gets 2, but on every spell level 3rd through 9th he trades out a worthless inflict spell that he will never use because he has an at will negative energy attach action touch attack that does more damage.

So he spontaneously casts from Color Spray, Sleep, and Wall of Nausea at level 1, Glitterdust and Web at level 2, Stinking Cloud, Bands of Steel, and Hesitate at level 3, EBT, Solid Fog, and Burning Blood at level 4, Baleful Polymorph, Dominate Person, and Illusory Feast at level 5, Flesh to Stone, Fleshshiver, and Freezing Fog at level 6. Ect. Plus obviously, whatever core necromancy gets him, IE, Magic Jar/Fear ect, but honestly, he'll rarely use those as combat spell, and he'll just be running around in a Magic Jar body with an undead horde.

Even if it was 2, which it isn't, doesn't it bother you at all that 90% of the spells cast by your Dread Necromancer are going to have nothing to do with Necromancy and instead be the best conjuration or transmutation or illusion save or dies?

Doesn't it bother you that a Dread Necromancer played from level 1 is going to have objectively worse spells than a Dread Necromancer created at level 10 who spends his lower level spells known on buffs?
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