The Ends v4.01

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Lokathor
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Post by Lokathor »

Drones use their Response in lieu of their Reaction.
Is the exact sentence. However, it could still be that. But also, jumped in users already have a way to calculate their Reaction (use Intuition), so... yeah.

Lots of these questions I can just pick answers for myself, but I'd usually like to hear what Frank thinks on the subject (insults are free after all).
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Oops.
I'd use Pilot, but as you said Frank's is the word to hear.
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Post by Lokathor »

But Response is such a shitty stat, I'd use it just to give it more use.
Last edited by Lokathor on Mon May 10, 2010 3:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

Drones use Pilot + Autosoft for most tasks. For actually piloting themselves around, they use Response + Pilot.

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Post by Lokathor »

FrankTrollman wrote:Drones use Pilot + Autosoft for most tasks. For actually piloting themselves around, they use Response + Pilot.

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EotM, Matrix Dice Pools at a Glance wrote:Drone Self Piloting: Pilot + Maneuver Autosoft + Handling
Who do I believe!?

Actually, when I went to write up some drone stat cards with prices and such I encountered a tangle of complexity that's above what the majority of my players are willing to deal with. While unravling it I hit more minor snags and illogical things, and now I'm just writing up a complete PDF that mixes the tangential EotM rules, Arsenal upgrade rules, and a few minor house-rules (like trying to fix impact damage) into a single thing. This is what I currently have written down in the relevant section:

Drone Dice Pools When They’re Alone
Initiative (2IP): Sensors + Response
Movement: Pilot + Maneuver Autosoft + Handling
Perception: Sensors + Clearsight Autosoft
Matrix Perception: Sensors + Clearsight Autosoft
Target Acquisition: Pilot + Clearsight Autosoft
Attacking: Pilot + Gunnery Autosoft
Defending: Maneuver Autosoft

And I'll probably stick with those as the pools. "Targeting" got renamed to "Gunnery" because it's slightly confusing for no good reason that Targeting doesn't actually perform Target Acquisition, and some of my players aren't as bright we would all like them to be. It could be some other name to avoid clash with the skill, but I couldn't think of anything.
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Post by Username17 »

Shit!

This is why I usually try to forgo answering specific rules questions before breakfast. Would you believe that I forgot that there was a maneuver autosoft? Yeah... sorry about that.

Truth be told, I think the world would be a better place if Maneuver Autosofts did not exist. Pilot could pilot things and the cheese would stand alone. However, this is not a simple change, since drones actually come with Maneuver Autosoft values but don't come with listed Response values.

Oh well, definitely a change for SR5.

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Post by Lokathor »

A drone does have a Device rating though, which gives it a Response value indirectly.

If, say, a young new GM was slowly introducing his players to his heavily houseruled version of SR4, and he had not yet put much stock in drones or vehicles and thus was given the chance to write that entire segment of the game essentially from scratch... what would you suggest that he do?

[*]My current plan is to try to fix up the prices so that particularly small vehicles are pretty much always more expensive, and particularly large vehicles are always more expensive to get at first but then cheaper to upgrade and they get more upgrade slots.
[*]Then I can just mostly gank a lot of the upgrades out of Arsenal and fiddle with prices and such if I need to (probably not).
[*]Then I have a "build a drone" section with several chassis designs that you add parts to, and also list some "off the shelf" designs that people can go out and buy right away, and I'm done. All old drone entries can just be either scrapped or updated to the new system. I've got that kind of time and dedication to bother with such an undertaking.
[*]I'd also like a "complete" lists of Autosofts and such as well as explanations of rigger dice pools, driver dice pools, and drone dice pools. Hopefully some improved vehicle rules that would let stuff crash into other stuff without insanity. Things like that.

On a side note, I decided I do want to make rounds longer like you suggested, but I couldn't decide on an exact time, and I couldn't figure out if I should try to adjust movement rates or just allow folks to seem arbitrarily slow during "tactical" combat. 10 seconds to a round (6/min), or maybe 20 (3/min)? I mean removing the dodge roll from SR4 or any other super huge change like that would require probably "too much" of a rewrite (at least for me at this point), but just fiddling with round lengths so that reinforcements can show up maybe eventually wouldn't be that big of a change.
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Post by Username17 »

Lokathor wrote:A drone does have a Device rating though, which gives it a Response value indirectly.

If, say, a young new GM was slowly introducing his players to his heavily houseruled version of SR4, and he had not yet put much stock in drones or vehicles and thus was given the chance to write that entire segment of the game essentially from scratch... what would you suggest that he do?
Honestly? While a complete rewrite of the vehicle rules, including the drone rules is probably desirable, it's also kind of a lot of work. If no one really wants to be "The Rigger" it's not in high demand. There are plenty of weirdnesses, that start with sport cars ramming for more damage than vehicular lasers and rail guns, and continue straight through to drones costing less than the machine guns that they come with.

But it's hard. Or rather, it's one of those "no single right answer" scenarios. And you are likely better off just ad hocing in the recoil rule that keeps people from putting heavy machine guns on dobermans and then just letting people buy the stuff out of the book for the weird list prices.

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Post by Lokathor »

I volunteer 10 to 20 hours a week and all the rest of my time is free time. I've gotta have something to keep my mind going, might as well write shadowrun stuff down that helps out me and my group and maybe other people as well. For me it's not a question of time taken, it's mostly a matter of "will it be interesting to do?" and also "will it produce an interesting result?". I think that the answers are probably Yes to both of those questions. It's also not like it has to be completely done by any particular date, so I'll probably just work on the 80% that's used most commonly and leave the other fringe things for when they come up.

My hacker player wants to be able to control drones, but he doesn't have the skills for it yet and he's not big time enough to have the cash to plop down on an expensive drone army, so he'll probably start out with simple medium sized drones that have 1 gun each and then move on to fancier systems as he goes along.

Though off the top of my head I have to admit that I can't think of a non-complex way to solve the collision damage issue, other than having it count as something similar to a melee attack with a "really big" weapon.
Last edited by Lokathor on Tue May 11, 2010 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lokathor »

Question: Can the Cloak program keep a network hidden even while it's using Attack Programs? or is it basically intended for use on allies that can't Matrix Stealth on their own?
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Post by Username17 »

Lokathor wrote:Question: Can the Cloak program keep a network hidden even while it's using Attack Programs? or is it basically intended for use on allies that can't Matrix Stealth on their own?
It's just a Matrix Stealth check, so it wouldn't be able to hide you while you were attacking, no. But you can use it to hide networks that you aren't even attached to, which has some pretty exciting possibilities.

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Post by Lokathor »

Played SR again last night. Matrix hijinks always end up seeming funner and more interesting than meatspace hijinks. 1 Technomancer + 1 Hacker against 1 Hacker was more interesting (to me as the GM) than 4 street sams up against 3 squads of 6 or so guys each (the squads were using the "group" rules so they only made 1 attack each pass with a +2 to +5 bonus).

I was quite surprised to note that Contagious RAS Override is Signal range without need for LOS. The hacker manged to paralyze the assassination target very unexpectedly.

Question: For technomancers, the main difference between a Signal range Decompiling Form (Can of Worms) and a Connection range Form (Lag) is that the signal range won't open the technomancer up to retaliation from IC programs? Correct?

Question: When drawing LOS for program targeting, do you need LOS to the brain (or brains) at the heart of the network you're attacking, or can you have LOS to any device in the network when using Digital programs?
Specific example: the party was inside a hotel and the entire building was running as a single network under the command of an enemy hacker. For drawing LOS for use with Can of Worms (D type), I allowed them to just need LOS to one or more of the hotel's networked devices (in this case, the elevator they were in, or security cameras running along the ceiling) and then the Icon damage affected the hacker's entire network ("all devices within the building"). Later, when the Technomancer wanted to attack the hacker himself he went into VR and flew to the hotel basement, then used Black Hammer while "looking" at him directly.
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Post by JesterZero »

Did I just miss it, or does this not mention Agents? Or is that covered under the Firewall Programs section?
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Post by Username17 »

JesterZero wrote:Did I just miss it, or does this not mention Agents? Or is that covered under the Firewall Programs section?
Agents don't get separate actions. To the extent that they exist, they are restricted to pilot programs and firewall extensions.

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Post by JesterZero »

FrankTrollman wrote:Agents don't get separate actions. To the extent that they exist, they are restricted to pilot programs and firewall extensions.

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Two questions then (sorry, I'm still wrapping my head around your rules; although compared to 98% of what's in the equivalent SR4 materials, these are fantastic).

1. It seems like under certain circumstances a firewall program DOES get a separate action. Now, that action is limited to running programs with a range of Connection, NOT being able to initiate a connection, and no more than 1 IP per round. (I'm getting that from the description of Firewall Programs in the section n Programs and Complex Forms). But conceivably, it could have instructions along the lines of "run the Crash program on anything that pokes it's nose inside our network that isn't me."

2. With the abilities of agents being so sharply curtailed, doesn't this mean that any fight between a Hacker and a Technomancer is always going to potentially favor the Technomancer? The Technomancer has the ability to roll with a posse. Granted, she can't really roll that deep (only 1 unregistered sprite at a time), but that's still 2-on-1.

Ok, I lied, one more question.

3. It seems to me that the rules portrayed here are deliberately redundant. I mean that in a good way; they feel like using a computer (and there's always like 3-7 ways to do the same thing on a computer). For example, if Tracy Technomancer wants to open a maglock, she can: run Jedi Trick, run Backdoor then Master Control, or run Validation. If she didn't have those complex forms, she could try to Thread Jedi Trick or Backdoor/Master Control (but not Validation). Conceivably, there's probably other options as well, since you could make the case that in the event of a power failure or malfunction, the lock would default to an unlocked state, and then proceed to damage/crash the sucker.

Am I starting to get it?
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Post by Username17 »

JesterZero wrote: 1. It seems like under certain circumstances a firewall program DOES get a separate action. Now, that action is limited to running programs with a range of Connection, NOT being able to initiate a connection, and no more than 1 IP per round. (I'm getting that from the description of Firewall Programs in the section n Programs and Complex Forms). But conceivably, it could have instructions along the lines of "run the Crash program on anything that pokes it's nose inside our network that isn't me."
Yes. That is how you set up passive IC. Of course, the best thing for passive IC to do is usually to alert a Hacker, but if you wanted to have your IC duke it out with someone as long as they were camping in your node, you could do that. They would be able to jack out, breaking the connection and stopping your IC though (like as happens in the books).
2. With the abilities of agents being so sharply curtailed, doesn't this mean that any fight between a Hacker and a Technomancer is always going to potentially favor the Technomancer? The Technomancer has the ability to roll with a posse. Granted, she can't really roll that deep (only 1 unregistered sprite at a time), but that's still 2-on-1.
Technomancers are incredibly scary in pure matrix duels for that exact reason. But they have weaknesses too. Since they draw their power from the matrix ambiently rather than having specific computers that they are running processes on, they are susceptible to jamming. Turn on some straight noise and it just lowers the hacker's effective range, but it reduces the actual Resonance of Technomancers and Sprites.

But the core of the matter is that a Technomancer pays substantially more points than a hacker does to do their thing, so as you'd hopefully expect they are more powerful in their area of expertise.
3. It seems to me that the rules portrayed here are deliberately redundant. I mean that in a good way; they feel like using a computer (and there's always like 3-7 ways to do the same thing on a computer). For example, if Tracy Technomancer wants to open a maglock, she can: run Jedi Trick, run Backdoor then Master Control, or run Validation. If she didn't have those complex forms, she could try to Thread Jedi Trick or Backdoor/Master Control (but not Validation). Conceivably, there's probably other options as well, since you could make the case that in the event of a power failure or malfunction, the lock would default to an unlocked state, and then proceed to damage/crash the sucker.
Yes, there are a lot of different ways to do things. If I were to write the SR5 mechanics on the subject, I'd go even farther and have people select hacking schticks similarly to how magicians select spells. But the basic idea was to go away from the SR4 by-the-book method where every security measure had exactly one program you needed to run to deal with it and thus every single player had to know every single program (except for a few redundant attack programs like Blackout/Blackhammer).
Am I starting to get it?
Looks like it.

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Post by Surgo »

I feel like a real moron asking this question, but I'm not quite sure -- do the display of Arrows depend on having something capable of displaying them, like a sim module or AR gloves or whatever, or are they beamed directly into the brain with no need for any of that (and that's why there are those matrix deprivation tanks)? I know in the core SR4 book it's the former, but the directly-to-the-brain and brain-text parts of the rules make me unsure if it's changed in the Ends.
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Post by Username17 »

Surgo wrote:I feel like a real moron asking this question, but I'm not quite sure -- do the display of Arrows depend on having something capable of displaying them, like a sim module or AR gloves or whatever, or are they beamed directly into the brain with no need for any of that (and that's why there are those matrix deprivation tanks)? I know in the core SR4 book it's the former, but the directly-to-the-brain and brain-text parts of the rules make me unsure if it's changed in the Ends.
Normally an arrow display is sent as a request to the target's display link to how an arrow. However, if you wanted to, you could project something like that directly into your brain. And so could anyone else.

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Post by Archmage »

These are just little things that seem like they should be obvious, but they've come up in play so far (one session, granted) and I wanted to make sure I was handling them more-or-less "correctly." The team's Matrix jockeys include a technomancer and a rigger with a bunch of hovering gun drones.

1) The technomancer's effective Signal range is 100m, but obviously if she can establish a connection to the greater Matrix at large, she can still send e-mail or even sensory feeds to people outside that range, right? At that rate, the signal is being re-routed through other sources; doesn't that theoretically make the signal less secure? Or can the technomancer just use a commlink as a repeater to boost the signal?

2) If the technomancer can use a repeater to boost signal, why don't all technomancers carry around high-signal commlinks or whatever to use as their "actual" signal source? Or should they?

3) Normally, when you hack on the fly to create a program you don't actually have, you roll and use the hits to determine the rating of the new program, with a -2 penalty for actually using the program. How does this work for technomancers? If a technomancer hacks on the fly to use a complex form she doesn't know, does she use the hits as the "rating" for the program instead of her Resonance as normal? Or does it just cap her hits at the "rating" of the improvised program?
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Post by Username17 »

1. A Technomancer can draw a path through repeaters of any type to maintain a connection or send Matrix range stuff. Their signal range abilities (including most illegitimate methods of getting access) only go to the range of their actual personal signal.

2. Technomancer Riggers usually use Commlinks because it lets them relay commands and sense data over long distances. Technohackers may not care.

3. Threading has the same rating limits as Hacking on the Fly - number of hits.

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Post by Archmage »

When a program or complex form is resisted by Response, and the target is B, do you add the Response of their network devices?

I'm specifically looking at Test Pattern, which is resisted by Intuition + Response + Signal Defense. If I've got a commlink with Response 4, do I add that to my resistance dicepool? Or is Response only applicable here for drones, since they don't have an Intuition score?
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Post by cthulhu »

How the shadowrun devs thinks the matrix works
Netcat attempts to eliminate the Rigger’s Access ID from the drone’s accounts list. Unfortunately, the clever Rigger has programmed the drone not to accept Admin account deletions. Netcat and the Rigger are at a stalemate.


?!?!

No idea where else to post that, but it's absolutely hilarious that you can make changes you cannot undo!
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

cthulhu wrote:How the shadowrun devs thinks the matrix works
Netcat attempts to eliminate the Rigger’s Access ID from the drone’s accounts list. Unfortunately, the clever Rigger has programmed the drone not to accept Admin account deletions. Netcat and the Rigger are at a stalemate.


?!?!

No idea where else to post that, but it's absolutely hilarious that you can make changes you cannot undo!
Nah, you just reprogram it to accept admin account deletions. Clearly Netcat just forgot to say "Simon says".
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Post by Username17 »

cthulhu wrote:How the shadowrun devs thinks the matrix works
Netcat attempts to eliminate the Rigger’s Access ID from the drone’s accounts list. Unfortunately, the clever Rigger has programmed the drone not to accept Admin account deletions. Netcat and the Rigger are at a stalemate.


?!?!

No idea where else to post that, but it's absolutely hilarious that you can make changes you cannot undo!
Where is that from?

More generally of course, yes. The Devs seem to think the matrix is a bizarre pastiche of irresistible forces and immovable objects navigated through a continuous game of Memory or Simon Says. Set the computer to only accept logins from a specific access ID, and then people can't hack in unless they identify the legal signal and then spoof its access ID. And so on, with an endless labyrinth of completely arbitrary security measures that cannot be overcome except through specific means.

It's... not a good system. Nor is it a good skeleton on which to hang a new system.

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Post by Lokathor »

Question: The "Erased" Quality. It seems way too good, particularly with this version of the matrix where data isn't supposed to really ever be lost forever in almost all cases.

Should it be adjusted in some way, or just let it be super and then everyone takes it and no one says much about it?
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