PWW wrote:
Now, with the "DM/other players are just right for making the rules right for your group", frankly you're looking at the wrong edition to play - just play B/X. It has the most stripped-down of rules allowing the DM and other players just to make up/modify rules to allow a balance DM/group to play.
Well, I'm not talking about some floating changing rules. I'm talking about setting up a new rule that everyone follows.
Adjudication wise, it's the same as managing a 1 minute/level spell. Keep in mind that how much time passes out of combat is entirely DM fiat too, since when you're not acting in rounds, the DM can effectively declare it takes you any amount of time he wants to do something. In fact, the combat limitation is probably easier to manage because in my opinion, it's more cut and dry than measuring out of combat time.
Ask any two DMs how much out of combat time they'd apply to spell durations for various events and you'll get a wide battery of answers. Ask them when they'd roll initiatve and declare combat over and the answers will most likely match up pretty well.
While a duration of 1 minute/level may sound more scientific, it's actually way more arbitrary than a straight combat duration. So once we accept that durations of 1 hour or 1 minute/level or 10 minutes/level are okay, then combat durations are only a minor degree of extra arbitration added.
Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1163584046[/unixtime]]On 1st level spells being irrelevant.
Not truly irrelevant, just not good enough that they need to be especially limited. Magic missiles become much like the warlock's Eldritch blast. You can cast em all day long and nobody cares. There's the sacred cow concept that wizards should be able to totally run out of juice and be able to effectively do nothing but fire a crossbow like a crappy fighter. THis may be okay for low level wizards, but high level wizards need to be able to get a bit more out of their combat actions than firing crossbows.
PhoneLobster at [unixtime wrote:1163591417[/unixtime]]
Did we roll iniative? Who knows? I'll ask the question players WILL ask you, "Why does it matter?"
Because it signifies the start of combat and that's a prerequisite to casting the spell. Do players commonly ask you "why does it matter?" when you ask if they have a free hand to cast somatic spells?
When does surprise end if nothing you do alerts the surprised characters to your presence? Or does everything you do ALWAYS alert them? In that case how can you actually surprise anyone at all in the first place?
Surprise is whenever you get a free surprise round. By definition in the rules, when the surprise round ends, both sides can act normally. If it really bothers you, you can always say combat duration spells make some flash of light and noise that makes them obvious to anyone around and enemies become instantly aware.
Heck I'm going to go further than need be here and point out that again how the hell long can surprise last? Sight range is PRETTY DAMN HUGE. If this works then there are endless situations that give you all the buffs/whatever durations any the time you give a damn.
Sure, if you happen to be on a super open battlefield and get in an army style conflict, then yeah, you can start out prebuffed. That's just a consequence of the terrain and I'm okay with that. Spellcasters are much like artillery. You don't want to fight them on an open field.
Similarly you always carry around an archer even if you have NO ranged specialities because the added potential encounter range lets everyone else get their buffs up? Everyone learns to fly so they can all buff up while flying around out of reach of the troll before they go konk it on the head some time after round three or four? Alternately even if everyone CAN fly over the troll they send someone down to wrestle him so they can all get their buffs up first?
Not worried about that kind of stuff. If you can fly and the enemy can't reach you, then you could just as easily kill him with ranged weapons. So getting your buffs up isnt' even an abuse. If you get your buffs up then land to melee the creature, then you're actually worse off than if you just picked it off with your bow at zero risk. So that's not even an abuse. It is an issue with flight, but there are far worse issues with flight than using it to prebuff.
Sounds simple. Let me try that out.
Me as player: "When does combat begin?"
Me as RC style GM: "When you roll initiative."
Me as player: "When do you roll initiative?"
Me as RC style GM: "When combat begins."
I see a problem there.
Yeah, it is DM arbitrary, but the point is that we already rely on the DM to figure out when to roll init, so if we assume he can do that (and D&D rules do), then there's nothing wrong with attaching other effects to that event.
Don't you see the problem here, there is no explanation, no rules, no hard or firm ground at all, just a vague sort of "when the GM feels like it". Your fix for duration effects is literally to create a rule which ultimately is little more than "you can't use them unless the GM lets you".
Well, in a way all abilities are like that. Disable device is useless unless the DM places a trap in your path. Flight does no good if you're in tight crawlspaces for the entire quest. Lets not kid ourselves that the DM doesn't have an extroardinary amount of control over the game.
And yeah, these durations take a bit of DM adjudication, but nothing unreasonable at all. Basically as long as people are burning a combat action (one they could have used to fire a bow, swing a sword, etc.) to buff, then they get that buff against their enemies for that combat.
I mean, you're nitpicking minor points here. If your DM doens't know when to roll initiative, then he probably shouldn't even be behind the screen. I take it he doesn't run encoutners with tavernkeepers in rounds? Or does he.
And lets face it, when the GM is encouraged to arbitrarily decide if combat ends and restarts or not every time you step through a doorway or stop to watch a midget fight then we know what he and the game designers are doing as well.
Well heres the thing.
THE DM ALREADY DOES THAT.
As stated before, the DM determines when to roll initiative and when to move out of initiative. He already handles when combat starts and ends, so this is nothing different.
You're making a big deal out of nothing.
As I said before, if you want to get on a soapbox about unfair DM adjudication, deal with management of noncombat time. That's far more arbitrary and random than figuring out when combat starts and ends.