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Username17
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Post by Username17 »

You have samurai 1 and samurai 2 locked in a epic struggle to the death(they are identical characters, both hitting the other on a roll of 11). Since each consecutive bonus to attack for ether will give diminishing margins of returns, the difference between +7 to attack and +8 to attack is very little in terms of the percent of hitting. However, The first +1 will give you a significant change in terms of success percent, as well as the first -1. This means that when samurai 1 and samurai 2 are battling, things like high ground(+2) can give up to a 20% or more improvement in your hit chances, while when Peasant 1 attacks Samurai 1 (DC18), having high ground and flanking (+4) will only give about a 9% increase to the chances of hitting. It doesn't really matter if the peasant has high ground or has good cover...the samurai is so much better than him that while something could happen and he could stab the samurai...it doesn't matter that much.
Um... no. That's not really how it works at all. Or rather, if you are actually concerned about a singular event, that is how it works. Until your bonuses bring you into the critical range of potential success, you have a very small chance of success. And once you have a very large chance of success, further bonuses hardly matter.

But my rejection of your assessment has nothing to do with the fact that a +4 provides a 15.8% increase in chances for that peasant and not a 9% increase you reported. My complaint is conceptual. When you have a battle challenge, you are going to be facing some number of goblins or peasants or something as to be actually challenging. Which means that while they might only hit on a 16+ and individually hit about 4.6% of the time, there are like 20 of the damn things, and collectively they are handing out about 1 hit a turn. If you give them a +2 bonus because of enchantment or some damn thing, they will be individually hitting on a 14+ and be squeezing out hits 16.2% of the time - which means they are throwing down 3 or more hits a turn. The danger of the enemy is increased by a factor of three. You get something very similar when you have an equivalent situation in d20 land.

Mobs of weak enemies that hit on obscure numbers always become radically more dangerous by tremendous factors when they get numeric bonuses to their to-hit rolls. That's just how swarms of attacks work.

But you are correct that with two evenly matched samurai that hit each other around half the time, having one of them get the upper hand, either offensively or defensively, is a big deal. While a powerful samurai attacking a weak enemy they will probably hit will not benefit much from an additional bonus.

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Post by MGuy »

For the wall thing that's easily solved by making it temporary. You make a wall it falls after so many rounds. I'm making a mana system myself and I have it just as mana for all classes.

Side note: I am also equating mana to "soul" power or some such thing. So using up your mana uses up your "soul" energy. I do not currently have a fatigue penalty for doing so though.
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Strung Nether
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Post by Strung Nether »

Valid point frank. The whole RNG behaves very differently if there are fifteen peasants attacking the samuari instead of one.

Just to give you a headache with math:
1d4+1d6+1d8?
2d4+1d10?
The curves for these are...interesting.

Once me and my friend hammer out the system a little more we will make a whole FORMAL INTRODUCTION POST with design goals and mechanics and stuff.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

Strung Nether wrote:Just to give you a headache with math:
1d4+1d6+1d8?
2d4+1d10?
The curves for these are...interesting.
See. THIS is what happens when you encourage the stupidity that is "curved" dice rolls.

Total fucking crazy town.

There is no longer any helping this guy.

His homebrew RPG has officially gone to total shit.
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Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob »

I have it on good authority that unless you decide to roll your stats by rolling 10 D100's, adding them all together, dividing the result by five and then subtracting one you haven't created the worst game in the world. So at least there's that.
Simplified Tome Armor.

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Strung Nether
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Post by Strung Nether »

Minor update:
Decided to go with one dice for the basic RNG, probably a d20 or a d30. The game is just easier to balance when each +1 is a +5% or +10/3% chance of Win.

“Classes" are different, but there are three basic “types”: Martial, Divine, and arcane.

Multicasting: if you take 5 levels of fighter, and you decide to take barbarian, you get what the 6th level of barbarian gives you. Example: each level of barbarian gives you +2 stamina and +1 fast healing, along with saves and base attack bonus. This way if you like a ability that a class gives you at a certain level, you don't have to take ten levels of that class. All abilities stay level appropriate, and people get to make their own class. We will have to be careful about how abilities are given. A mechanically identical but simpler system is that there are lists of "abilities" that each comes with a increase to BAB, defenses, health, etc, similar to a lot of one level classes. You can only take them at certain "levels". The number of "abilities" that you have is what "level" you are.

Combat/resources:
Everyone gets stamina. 0 stamina means you are knocked out. Stamina is used after you use certain attacks, and certain attacks attack your stamina directly. At certain thresholds (half stamina, quarter stamina), you take penalties to everything. Basically a straight -x to the RNG for whatever you do for simplicity. Magic users will use stamina to apply metamagic-like things to spells.

Only Martial and Divine get mana (divine also gets a different spell list). Mana will be like "spells per day", but there are different colors of mana for different types of spells. We currently think that the mana will go by actual effect (Damage, hex, Buff, heal/de-hex, control, utility, etc.), instead of by the flavor of the effect (fireball=red, lightning=yellow). There won’t be spells like 1d6/level max 10d6; all spells will scale your full level. Spells that are just better will cost more than one mana(shocking grasp vs. chain lightning). Spells will also be further balanced with the use of d4s and d8s for damage, and other things like duration or ammounts of numbers. Certain spell effects currently in dnd will be hard to balance (sleep, glitterdust), but that the price for getting rid of the “leveled” 5-minute workday. Spells will have a "complexity level", so that no one gets a timestop at level 1. We think about four or five complexity levels. Like stamina, resting for a bit(3 min of no stress environment) will give you all of your mana back.
Spell casters also get a few non-mana consuming effects. These will be similar to pulling out the “orb” spells in dnd, not as bad as a crossbow, but not nearly as good as a mana consuming one. They will have weak effects but the effect will be stronger if you have more mana. Examples are a 2d6 damage per red mana magic missile, and a 5 foot/mana vision blocking cloud that lasts 1 round/mana. This will encourage spellcasters to not just blow all of their load on the first round of combat, similar to penalties for having low stamina.

If something seems completely stupid or complex, I probably explained it poorly. Go ahead and criticize/suggest.
Last edited by Strung Nether on Sat May 29, 2010 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by TheFlatline »

Red_Rob wrote:I have it on good authority that unless you decide to roll your stats by rolling 10 D100's, adding them all together, dividing the result by five and then subtracting one you haven't created the worst game in the world. So at least there's that.
You have to be fucking shitting me...

Charts for nipple length and vaginal circumference potential??? Fisting in an RPG???

Just what this hobby needs to be treated maturely...
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Post by A Man In Black »

TheFlatline wrote:You have to be fucking shitting me...

Charts for nipple length and vaginal circumference potential??? Fisting in an RPG???

Just what this hobby needs to be treated maturely...
Wow, someone who actually hasn't seen FATAL before.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

Strung Nether wrote:Multicasting
Not sure I'm all too keen on highly complex multiclassing schemes in home brew RPGs. You are designing this yourself for a small audience of players, you have no particular excuse for failing to cover all desired roles with specific single classes. If someone wants a fighter/mage you should (and will find it easier and better) just write a fighter/mage class.
Everyone gets stamina.
Why is this not instead your Mana resource? Especially if you are folding in spell casting enhancements and running a "this stat is so important it has complex penalty mechanics" mechanic.

If some guys just get another resource to spend, which doesn't penalize them as it runs out and can spend it and opt NOT to spend Stamina on meta magic and use ALL their stamina to absorb injuries they will laugh at the guys who have to spend a resource that penalizes them for spending it and reduces their damage buffer as they spend it.
Only Martial and Divine get mana (divine also gets a different spell list).
What? I sense a typo. But regardless there needs to be more clarification here about how that's supposed to work.
Mana will be like "spells per day"
I'm not sure how much it's been mentioned. But spell points systems are interchangeable with spells per day systems and that is largely a BAD thing. So if you are using mana as little more than spells per day for its restoration scheme... well... you've gone nowhere you couldn't have gone just as well or better with actual spells per day.
but there are different colors of mana for different types of spells. We currently think that the mana will go by actual effect (Damage, hex, Buff, heal/de-hex, control, utility, etc.)
So you have X per day attack spells, Y per day utility and Z per day Buffs etc...

You could have done that with spells per day. It also doesn't make colored Mana justifiably exciting or fluffy and thematic. More like just an obfuscating layer which will leaver one of the players never remembering whether he needs more Pink or Aquamarine mana if he wants to cast his Vampiric Buffing Hex Laser Minion Making Spell.
Spells that are just better will cost more
This remains unclear in detail but your comments so far make me strongly suspect a modular points based spell builder in the works. And while that SOUNDS nice in a lot of ways... it typically leads to Armageddon so... yeah.

Not to mention that that typically also means that while the party wizard is gaming the system to get pile everything he is together into a single budget once a day nuclear planet buster explosion whatever classes aren't using the modular spell system are stuck with whatever stuff they just get.
Like stamina, resting for a bit(3 min of no stress environment) will give you all of your mana back.
That's nice but maybe a little dull. "If the GM lets you you have full resources at the start of every combat" is an OK mechanic. But I still prefer a dynamic in combat resource manipulation model by a long shot. It's far more engaging.
Spell casters also get a few non-mana consuming effects.
That's nice and probably good. But I'm not clear on how this meshes well with your many colours of mana being the focus of your system thing.
This will encourage spellcasters to not just blow all of their load on the first round of combat, similar to penalties for having low stamina.
Er. No. Here is how this one works out.

Situation 1) My nuke is bigger than my "enhanced" pew pew.
Screw pew pew, nuke until I have nothing!

Situation 2) My nuke is smaller than my "enhanced" pew pew.
Pew Pew IS my nuke, nuke forever! (laugh even more at stamina characters).

Situation 3) My Nuke is the same as my "enhanced" pew pew.
Still no reason to use my nuke at all, my pew pew is my nuke, etc... see 2.

And that is pretty much it for how that is likely to turn out for you.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

I agree with Phonelobster on the multiclassing thing. It's really, really hard to balance complex open multiclassing. It's possible and a design team really devoted towards doing it could make it work--but the fact remains is that writing a single class that covers a particular concept is probably easier.

I understand that there are a conceptual demand for Rogue 20s, Wizards 20s, Rogue 10 / Wizard 10, Rogue 5 / Wizard 15, and Rogue 15 / Wizard 5s. But Rogue 12 / Wizard 8? Rogue 9 / Wizard 11?

3E approached this problem mostly be printing prestige classes. By heavily pushing the idea that PrCs were something that everyone wanted, they were able to 'solve' the problem of hybrid Rogue / Wizards being ass by printing Arcane Tricksters. That obviously brought its own set of problems, but nowhere near as much as the former.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
Strung Nether
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Post by Strung Nether »

Curse you and your legitimate criticism.
Back to drawing board.
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Post by Crissa »

Yeah, I know, it sucks. Frank hardly ever likes my ideas!

But it's the only way to get better stuff.

-Crissa
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:I agree with Phonelobster on the multiclassing thing. It's really, really hard to balance complex open multiclassing. It's possible and a design team really devoted towards doing it could make it work--but the fact remains is that writing a single class that covers a particular concept is probably easier.

I understand that there are a conceptual demand for Rogue 20s, Wizards 20s, Rogue 10 / Wizard 10, Rogue 5 / Wizard 15, and Rogue 15 / Wizard 5s. But Rogue 12 / Wizard 8? Rogue 9 / Wizard 11?
Well the problem is that there is demand for Rogue 18/ wizard 2 or wizard 19/rogue 1 as well. Sometimes people really just want like one special ability off the rogue list to round themselves out and that's it.
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Post by A Man In Black »

RandomCasualty2 wrote:Well the problem is that there is demand for Rogue 18/ wizard 2 or wizard 19/rogue 1 as well. Sometimes people really just want like one special ability off the rogue list to round themselves out and that's it.
Wasn't that what feats were supposed to do?
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Post by Crissa »

Except Feats ended up to be stupid +2 to this or +4 replacing your old +2 or a single spell-like once a day.

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Post by TheFlatline »

A Man In Black wrote:
RandomCasualty2 wrote:Well the problem is that there is demand for Rogue 18/ wizard 2 or wizard 19/rogue 1 as well. Sometimes people really just want like one special ability off the rogue list to round themselves out and that's it.
Wasn't that what feats were supposed to do?
I always saw feats as primarily a system to give rogues, rangers, and fighters a little bit of variety.

Fighters shit feats every other level so they'd have lots of tactical options and flexibility (in theory). If you were a spell caster, the metamagic feats were just about the only thing you needed, you already had flexibility.

The rangers could choose between two-weapon and ranged focuses, and the rogues could either become a backstabber or a bow user.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

Feats were supposed to be customizable class features. So for instance a wizard with a feat would end up looking like...

Wizard+Sword Feat= I'm a wizard but I can fight with a sword on the side, yay!

Wizard+Explosion Feat= I'm a wizard but my explosions are better!

Wizard+Toughness Feat= I'm a wizard but I am surprisingly tough!

The reality sadly was that all those, and indeed basically all, feats sorta sucked.

But the idea was Feats filled the role of customization, specialization and limited "out of class" or "classless" ability hybridization.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

The basic problem with 3E feats were that they were new, so people erred on the side of caution. And of course since people didn't playtest the game throughout all of the levels they worked fine for what they were.

That's understandable and the funny thing is that as 3E advanced feats became significantly less ass. Or rather, the feat system remained ass but non-junk feats became more frequent. Feats started to do more (hooray Tactical feats), they got rid of feat chains, reduced equipment dependency, and they reduced the level and class requirements for feats. So they did get the hint over time, but not fast enough to save the system as it were for 3E. So even though 3.0E feats sucked, they were a new thing for D&D and more importantly people were learning from the experience.

Unfortunately, Andy Collins is a rat bastard and decided to kick the feat system back to the ways that made it suck in the first fucking place. The only improvement 4E feats have over the worst of 3E feats was the elimination of the feat chain. Of course since 4E massively upped the class and level requirements this advantage became moot.

But honestly, the idea of class-agnostic horizontal advancement remains sound and fun. I'm against the idea of having abilities come solely from magical items or class levels, because it eliminates the idea of the party Warlord / Fighter / Cleric having gone to Zissr Academy to train in the same fighting style. But if the best we're going to get is the pissant 4E system then they're better off dead and buried.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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